New here, pregnant, have some questions - Page 2

[carolhagan]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

I'm not asking for snark.

If people are going to just jump all over me with snotty comments, I guess I'll just leave this board and go along with my husband's wishes. It will certainly be easier for me to do that.

I was hoping, however, that somebody else had been in my shoes and could help me get from "meh, maybe it's not such a big deal" to "oh, THAT makes sense".

This is the conversation that is going on in my home right now. This is where I am coming from.

If you would rather be lofty than help me learn, I can't help that.

Have you watched a video? Have you read any literature about it? I just find it super hard to believe anyone would think "meh, maybe it's not such a big deal" after actually researching it.

Forget the purpose of the foreskin for a moment and realize the pain and trauma a newborn goes through when he is strapped down without any form pain relief (usually) and has a part of his penis cut off for no reason at all. His parents are his world and they allow him to be tormented like this. It's cruel, and totally avoidable.

[TigerTail]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

Well, then say it like that, please, instead of tossing off a one liner.

I didn't feel any love with your initial response, I have to say.

I'm just trying to learn here. Don't chase people like me away!

Sorry, we both have kids signed up to be penpals together (bad TT, putting things off!); the last thing that was intended was snark, just the succinct idea that came quickest to mind.

It really is just that simple. Circ'd guys have nothing to compare it to. A great deal of men's egos are wrapped up in their penises, & it takes a lot of courage (or watching foreign porn ) to examine your penis & find it wanting.

[chinaKat]

Originally Posted by carolhagan

Have you watched a video? Have you read any literature about it? I just find it super hard to believe anyone would think "meh, maybe it's not such a big deal" after actually researching it.

Forget the purpose of the foreskin for a moment and realize the pain and trauma a newborn goes through when he is strapped down without any form pain relief (usually) and has a part of his penis cut off for no reason at all. His parents are his world and they allow him to be tormented like this. It's cruel, and totally avoidable.

Honestly, no, I haven't watched a video. I do know that it's not always done with restraints and certainly not always done without painkillers, but that's neither here nor there -- I'm not going to argue in favor of circ'ing.

Like I said, I'm not convinced it's necessary and I'm not wanting to do it, but I know plenty of people (including lots of Jews, if I can bring that into the mix) that don't have a problem with it -- and these are all kind, caring, awesome AP parents.

Basically, every single person in my life thinks circ'ing is fine. Everybody at MDC thinks it's barbaric. So, you can understand why I'm getting mixed messages on the process. I'm just trying to sort that out.

[chinaKat]

Originally Posted by TigerTail

A great deal of men's egos are wrapped up in their penises, & it takes a lot of courage (or watching foreign porn ) to examine your penis & find it wanting.

Hah! That's a great way of putting it... I may need to rephrase slightly for DH, though.

[melanie83103]

I have to add one more thing. When your baby is born, you have a powerful instinct to protect him/her. The last thing you want is for this sweet thing to experience anything painful. Seriously, you would rather cut off your arm than allow someone to hurt your baby. This intinct helped solidify my decision not to circ my son. It IS painful, no matter how they do it. And it hurts afterward, too, A LOT. You just won't want someone to cause your baby pain, trust me. And your husband will likely feel the same way.

I think most people circ because they havent given it thought, and therefore do not even realize how painful it is. You KNOW, and that is going to guide your instinct to protect your future son.

Melanie

[Benji'sMom]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

I hear what you are saying.

But on the flip side of your analogy, how about the deaf community? Many deaf people hope for deaf children, and opt not to have cochleal implants or whathaveyou to restore hearing. If they are *fine* with the way that they are, who am I (as a member of the hearing community) to tell them that they are "missing out"?

Just being devil's advocate here, not trying to troll.

And plenty of deaf children want the implants because they want to hear. (There's a documentary out there about this exact same thing. The daughter wants the implant, the parents are resistent. I saw something about it on TV.) Well, my point is, that child wants something different than what her parents want.

You're looking at it like "Who am I to tell my husband he is missing out?" But I look at it like "Who are we (as both his parents) to tell our son what to do with his body?" Because if I circ'd him, it can't be undone so that would be a permanent decision made by us. Your DH may be happy with his own body, but that doesn't have anything to do with your son. What the father wants may be totally different than what the child wants. And what could the child do once it's too late and the deed is done? Even foreskin restoration is misleading; it can restore the coverage but not the sensativity.

[TigerTail]

Seriously. A picture is worth a thousand words. A twenty second internet clip can make that light bulb pop up above your head: "OH, is that how it's supposed to work!"

[Mountaingirl3]

My dh initially wanted to circ. Then, our first child was a girl and we fell head-over-heels for her. He was like a papa bear, "No one will ever harm my child!" When I got pg again, I started researching circ. As soon as I saw pictures and learned that the foreskin is NOT just a flap of skin, I knew that was never going to happen to any baby of mine. A baby is as fully human as you and I are. If it's wrong to strap me down against my will and cut off a normal, healthy part of me, it's wrong to do it to a newborn baby.

Dh still didn't see it my way. I stayed calm and slowly showed him info. like the AAP statement, Dr. Sears' website, and the scar on his own penis. He is an MD, and was well indoctrinated, so it took some time. I drew parallels to many other procedures that medicine used to think were positive--women giving birth on their backs, episiotomy, certain knee surgeries ect. Slowly, he began to realize that there is no evidence that circ. solves any problems, and there is evidence that it causes problems.

The final convincing factor was a circ video. All dh had to do was picture his child's perfect little body defenseless and bleeding for no reason and he became an intactivist. He now belongs to Doctors Oppossing Circumcision.

Our second child turned out to be a girl, anyway, but the third is an intact boy. Dh says that his penis doesn't look weird at all--it looks like a normal human penis (and kind of like a mini-rocket ). Anyway, the bottom line is that it is ds's body and we have no right to take parts away from him.

Congratulations on your pregnancy : ! Let us know whenever you have more questions.

[chinaKat]

Originally Posted by Benji'sMom

You're looking at it like "Who am I to tell my husband he is missing out?" But I look at it like "Who are we (as both his parents) to tell our son what to do with his body?" Because if I circ'd him, it can't be undone so that would be a permanent decision made by us. Your DH may be happy with his own body, but that doesn't have anything to do with your son. What the father wants may be totally different than what the child wants. And what could the child do once it's too late and the deed is done? Even foreskin restoration is misleading; it can restore the coverage but not the sensativity.

Very good points.

I'm getting some great ammunition in this thread!

[carolhagan]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

Honestly, no, I haven't watched a video. I do know that it's not always done with restraints and certainly not always done without painkillers, but that's neither here nor there -- I'm not going to argue in favor of circ'ing.

Like I said, I'm not convinced it's necessary and I'm not wanting to do it, but I know plenty of people (including lots of Jews, if I can bring that into the mix) that don't have a problem with it -- and these are all kind, caring, awesome AP parents.

Basically, every single person in my life thinks circ'ing is fine. Everybody at MDC thinks it's barbaric. So, you can understand why I'm getting mixed messages on the process. I'm just trying to sort that out.

I understand. I too was the first in my family and group of friends to question circumsision. Everyone else thought it was fine too, but when questioning those people they really had no knowledge of circumsision other than what they have heard from other peole. They didn't research it. They had no idea what actually went into it. I know lots of kind, caring, awesome AP parents that choose to circ but again a lot of them really didn't look into to it. Not saying that all parents that choose to do it didn't look into it, just most of the ones I know. Also, I know a lot of parents that regret it. Like really really regret it. I have never ONCE met someone who regretted leaving their son intact.

[dynamohumm6]

I agree, if you haven't seen a video, you should watch one. Or, since you don't want to circ anyway, have your dh watch it.
Please bear in mind that they are very graphic and hard to watch, especially while pregnant. I made the mistake of watching a video when I was pregnant with DS, and I made it as far as the first terrible scream that baby let out, and I ran to the bathroom and vomited. I had nightmares about it after that.

[Mountaingirl3]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

Like I said, I'm not convinced it's necessary and I'm not wanting to do it, but I know plenty of people (including lots of Jews, if I can bring that into the mix) that don't have a problem with it -- and these are all kind, caring, awesome AP parents.

I get where you're coming from--the most GD AP moms I know are Jewish--but we aren't allowed to discuss religious circ. at MDC. Hopefully, I can say that I've never heard a Jew promote circ for non-Jews, so if you aren't Jewish, the whole thing should be irrelevent.

[Bm31]

I know a lot of circ'd men think it's "fine", but they really wouldn't know any different. I had a botched circ and re-circ; I know it's not "fine." True, we are probably the exception rather than the rule, but what would a parent say to their child if they're one of the unlucky ones? That they rolled the dice with their genitals for something that was completely unnecessary?

[dynamohumm6]

Originally Posted by Bm31

what would a parent say to their child if they're one of the unlucky ones? That they rolled the dice with their genitals for something that was completely unnecessary?

Succinct, and dead on.

[paquerette]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

Hah! That's a great way of putting it... I may need to rephrase slightly for DH, though.

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend any approach suggesting that his penis isn't up to par. Start gently and don't bring out the vinegar unless the honey fails to work. There's an article in one of the stickies about the vulnerability of men. Something for you to read and think about how guys have trouble dealing with the issue, kwim?

I wasn't familiar with the deaf community issue, but I think that's wrong too. We can be content with our own physical shortcomings or anomalies or what have you, and still want better for our children. DH and I both have autoimmune problems and he has a limp and I wear glasses. No biggies, we get through life without much angst or bitterness on that score, but I surely don't want my babies to deal with any of that if I can prevent it (and hopefully bf'ing makes the difference there ).

I'm sure most of what I'd be inclined to say has already been said a dozen times since I started this.

Oh, here's that article btw.: http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

[jessjgh1]

There are so many ways to approach this topic. What information do you need? What would your dh be receptive to?

Your dh doesn't have a foreskin or an intact penis so the point is that he really doesn't know what it is like to be intact either- even though he does have a penis.

But is that really the issue? There are so many ways to think about it:

Does he know it is not medically necessary?
Does he have concerns about the procedure and the usual lack of pain relief?
Do you want to breastfeed? If so, are you aware that circumcision can interrupt the establishment of breastfeeding?
Whose right is it to make this decision? Yours? His? Your doctor? Your sons?
What are the functions of the foreskin?
Why would boys be born with a foreskin, only to need it removed?
Does your dh realize that 85% of men in the world are intact and that most other cultures consider us strange (the US) and perhaps even barbaric?
Do you realize there are different methods of circumcision and different styles (doctors circumcised differently)-- are you prepared to weigh a list of pro's con's, select a method and choose the style (ie, how it will look) for your son's penis? Most parents don't want to think about that, but then if it looks different than dh or different then expected they are upset (and some re-circ).
Do you understand that the risks of intactness are extrememly low and you can actually compare them to the risks of complications of circumcision?
Can you watch a video to inform your self about the procedure.
Does everyone around you really care-- I mean, you say they all choose circumcision, but are they going to care that you leave your son intact?
If they ARE AP, I'd expect they wouldn't really think it was a big deal.

HAve you heard the opinion of your doctor/midwife/pedi? What did they say.

He's glad that he's circ'd, and wants the same for our child if we have a boy

Medical opinions have changed since your dh was circed. I'll assume we can compare somewhat even if off by a decade or so... Let's see, my father was not allowed to see me for the first 4 weeks (I was a premie), he was not allowed in the delivery room. My mom was not supported trying to breastfeed- formula was still considered fine. I had several treatments that are outdated now.

Just because these things happened to us when we were born doesn't mean that we need to insist they happen to our children.

As wishy washy as the AAP statement is, it does state that circumcision is medically unnecessary.

If not for medical reasons... WHY is you dh insisting?

Hope that helps and thank you for considering, questioning, and learning!

Jessica

[chinaKat]

Originally Posted by paquerette

Oh, here's that article btw.: http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

That article was AWESOME! It addressed my situation precisely. Thanks!!!

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

chinaKat I want to thank you for coming here and researching I see you have already gotten tons of information I just want to add some if I may. It is gonna be kinda long but all of it is important to read. And please watch the circ video linked to here or at least read the transcript from it. And if you can get your dh to as well.

Reasons to leave your son intact:

- The owner of the penis should be the one to decide what to do with it.

-The foreskin, not the head, is the most sensitive part of the normal, intact penis.

- The movable shaft skin of an intact penis facilitates intercourse, reducing friction and prolonging pleasurable sex for both male and female.

- The foreskin aids in foreplay; lubricants are optional.

- An intact penis will have no circumcision scar, will often have less hair drawn up onto it shaft, and will on average be somewhat larger than a circumcised penis.

- The foreskin protects and lubricates the head or “glans” of the penis for the life of its owner. The glans or the head of the penis was never meant to be a external organ it should be inside the foreskin to protect it and keep it sensitive.

- 80-85% of the world’s male population has intact genitals, including nearly all European males (please note that HIV/AIDS rates are actually lower in Europe than in America). Circumcision does NOT prevent AIDS wearing a condom does.

- When people from non circumcising countries hear that we in the USA still do it they are usually shocked, and often don't believe it to be true.

- Care of the intact infant penis is actually much easier as there is no wound care, you just wash it like a finger, it should never be retracted by anyone other than the child. The age it becomes retractable varies greatly normal range is childhood to adulthood.

- The foreskin contains three to four feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and 10-20,000 specialized nerve endings.

- Male circumcision permanently diminishes the sexual feelings for both male and female.

- The circumcision rate in the USA has fallen from 90% in 1970 to roughly 56% today.

- No medical organization anywhere recommends routine infant circ.
http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/

- Circumcision is EXTREMELY painful, even if anesthetic is administered. Studies have proved that babies feel pain even more acutely than an adult would. It is a very great breech of trust for a baby to be taken from his parents and cut. It is very violating. Long after any anesthesia that might(most only get a sugar dipped rag or paci to suck on) have been used wears off there is still a raw open wound sitting in urine and feces with no pain relief.

- The intact penis, if left alone, has no greater risk for UTI's, STD's, Penile Cancer, HIV, causing Cervical Cancer in women.
UTI myth http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/
http://www.nocirc.org/statements/breastfeeding.php

In fact, UTI's are so rare in any case that, using Wiswell's data, 50 to 100 healthy boys would have to be circumcised in order to prevent a UTI from developing in only one patient. (Using more recent data from a better-controlled study, the number of unnecessary operations needed to prevent one hospital admission for UTI would jump to 195.

Cancer Society:http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...evented_35.asp

In the past, circumcision has been suggested as a way to prevent penile cancer. This suggestion was based on studies that reported much lower penile cancer rates among circumcised men than among uncircumcised men. However, most researchers now believe those studies were flawed because they failed to consider other factors that are now known to affect penile cancer risk.

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/

Gellis (1978) said there are more deaths from circumcision than from cancer of the penis.8
Boczko et al . found numerous reports of penile cancer in circumcised men, thus conclusively disproving Wolbarst's false claims of protection from penile cancer by circumcision.9
In "Circumcision: An American Health Fallacy," Edward Wallerstein writes14: "If infant circumcision reduces penile cancer we could expect to see proportionately less penile cancer in circumcising nations as compared to non-circumcising ones. No such difference is found."

Preston established quite clearly that there was little evidence to support a relationship between lack of circumcision and penile cancer, cervical cancer, or cancer of the prostate in 1970 but he was unable to identify the causative agent at that time,6 while Leitch did the same in Australia.

Circumcision and AIDS/HIV http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003362.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/

- The times the intact penis has trouble are when it is forcefully retracted before it is ready. The penis should only be retracted by its owner, when he’s ready. It is normal to not be retractable until after puberty. It is not a problem.

- Circumcision is SURGERY and as such poses significant risks of infection to the wound.
Possible complications include but are not limited to:
infections;
botched circumcisions that have to be redone;
to tight circumcisions that cause extreme pain with erection;
hair on the shaft;
loss of sensation in the glans (head), it becomes keratinized (hardened) without the foreskin;
amputation of the glans;
amputation of the entire penis;
ruptured stomach from crying so hard;
ruptured bladder from crying so hard;
ruptured intestines from crying so much;
DEATH
and much much more.

None of these side effects are present when just leaving a boy intact.

- Girls have a much greater risk of UTIs, yet we wouldn't cut off their clitoris or labia to prevent them.


- Circumcisions was originally introduced in the country in the late 1800s to prevent masturbation. It has since been touted as the cure for all sorts of ailments - none of which are scientifically provable are even remotely true.

- Cutting off the foreskin cuts off the most sensitive, erotic, pleasurable part of a man’s body. The foreskin plays a very important role in sex. Men who were circumcised later in life compare circed sex/intact sex to black and white TV and plasma TV. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

- There are NO medical benefits with routine infant circumcision. It is a cosmetic surgery, and as such more insurance companies will NOT pay for it.

- When the foreskin is removed 30-50% of sexual pleasure goes with it. Because 30-50% of the total penile skin is removed during a RIC depending on the Dr. and the type of circumcision that is done.

- 80% of the world’s circumcised men in the world are in the US. 80% of the world’s Viagra sales are in the US. Coincidence?

- Circumcision is big business in the US. Several billions of dollars every year. Doctors are very invested in keeping the circumcision myths alive.

- A single doctor can make $20,000 a year doing circumcisions.

- A little known fact is that foreskins are then resold to the highest bidder. They are used in cosmetics, skin growth for grafting, cancer treatments and much more. The after life of foreskins is also a multi billion dollar a year industry. Parents are not told about this. There is no informed consent. Certainly the foreskins owner doesn’t have a say in the matter.

- “Every boy born in the US has a $300 coupon attached to his foreskin. All you have to do is cut it off to redeem.”

- Circumcision should only be performed on consenting adults who know all that is entailed.

- What if your son wants his foreskin?

- A lot of men are very angry when they find out the truth and feel very violated. (like my husband.)

- How would you feel if someone cut off your clitoris and labia without asking you? They do it in Africa all the time. We are horrified when little girls are mutilated. Why not when little boys?

- It causes immense trauma & physical pain to a brand new baby who just had to undergo birth. Often times a baby will suddenly cease crying and so the Doctors say it doesn't hurt them. It does - they are in shock.

- Circumcision is almost NEVER medically necessary. The only true medical reasons for circ are, frostbite, gangrene and cancer (all of those would be extremely rare) The incidence for necessary medical circumcisions is less that 0.05%.

- Smegma isn’t bad or gross. It is the Greek word for soap. Women have it too. It helps keep everything clean and healthy. No intact boy should be forcefully retracted just to clean it out. It’s supposed to be there!

- When they separate the foreskin from the glans it is similar to ripping off your fingernails. Than they crush the foreskin and cut it off - most often with NO pain relief. They also stimulate an erection so they “know where to cut.” A boys first sexual experience is one of great pain and trauma.

Common myths you may hear from others and even Dr's:

http://www.coloradonocirc.org/myths.php

[buckeyedoc]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

OK, so can we talk percentages here? How common *are* these sort of problems? Do men consider them (preventable as they may be) as sort of a general inconvenience of being male (like a woman might see a yeast infection or a UTI)? Or are these things considered more "serious".

I know that, for most men, their penises are VERY important to them. You'd think they'd talk about this stuff! But, while I'd wager that most guys have heard of a yeast infection, I'm not sure I've ever heard about adhesions or other circ problems.

Most scientific literature estimates the US circumcision complication rate at 2-10%. Usually 1-2% are the acute complications, like bleeding, infection, or adhesions serious enough to require additional surgery. Later complications are harder to quantify unless they lead the patient or parents to see the doctor again (like meatal stenosis). There are probably many men out there who never see the doctor about their complications, leading to underestimation. In areas where everyone is circumcised, a lot of men don't connect issues like tight skin, skin bridges/adhesions, bent penis, etc. with being circumcised. It's obviously not that they are stupid or don't notice, but more that they figure it's just how their penis is. All circumcised men have a scar, but I can honestly say I never thought about it for most of my life until considering circumcision when pregnant with son #1 two years ago.

You'd be surprised at how many people on this board are married to circumcised husbands (or are circumcised men themselves) but have uncircumcised sons. Circumcision is one of those things that seems really normal if you live in a time and place where everyone used to have it done (like me in Ohio born in the 1970s). When you step back and consider it in the whole scheme of what others in the world do and ask yourself why we in the US are the only ones who have no qualms about automatically doing a very personal surgery to infant boys, it becomes a really bizarre idea.

Since leaving my son (and now two) intact, being intact does not seem unusual at all. I find more and more people all the time who feel similarly.

[cristina63303]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

Basically, every single person in my life thinks circ'ing is fine. Everybody at MDC thinks it's barbaric. So, you can understand why I'm getting mixed messages on the process. I'm just trying to sort that out.

The world looks very different from the other side of the Atlantic: everyone around me is intact and thinks circumcision is barbaric. Most people here have no clue that Americans do "THAT!?" and are perfectly horrified when they find out.

Although I'm Venezuelan, I ended up in Germany (DH is German) after living in the US for a long time. You never know where your son's life will take him. A circumcised guy in Europe is the odd one out. What if he ends up living here?

If circumcision is not necessary for Europeans, well it's also not necessary for Americans. Why damage your son's perfect body? Because yes, even in the best "no-complication" case, circumcision IS damage.

I wish you the best on your pregnancy. It's very tough what you're about to embark on. It's wonderful that you've chosen to question circumcision and educate yourself on the topic before it's too late for your baby. We're here for you no matter how many questions you have or how difficult the discussion with your DH becomes: to support you as well as give you all the ammunition you may need.

You've read the vulnerability of men article. Now watch a circumcision video (I never have been able to, I admit, but I would not force my son to experience something I can not even watch), but, most importantly, make sure your DH watches it.