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Is this anyone's business? - Page 3

post #41 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommymarliah View Post
annoying isn't it? My 2.5 year old still wakes at night and people have actually asked me about sex lol.
Why on earth they think that is their business is beyond me. I ussually just answer with "who says sex has to be done in a bed?" and a wink lol that shuts them up.
I agree 100% with your answer but I've got grief for it. The person in question was complaining because what happens if mom is putting baby to sleep and falls asleep with baby and it's too hard to move to another room because she's really tired yadda, yadda, yadda

Oh yeah and they knows someone who lives in a studio apt so what are they supposed to do....

never mind that it IS the case with me and dh. We have a three bedroom house and enough beds to designate one for recreational activities

This person just plain didn't want a family bed and kept trying to argue how it wouldn't work

It works for us but they didn't want to hear about it
post #42 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckw View Post
My son is 3 months old, and I have been shocked by the fact that pretty much without exception, the FIRST question EVERYONE asks is how does he sleep?does he sleep through the night? Is he a good sleeper? I can't believe how obsessed with it people are. As if that is THE most important thing about having a child! Do people care more about their sleep than they do about their children???? I have also been thinking about ways to respond to this, as I am already sick of it.
these are the same sort of people who ask "is she a good baby?"

that's code for a "convenient, undemanding" baby (not those "bad" babies who have the temerity to want to be held and nursed...).
post #43 of 62
(1) Not sleeping through the night until they are 3 or 4 years of age is normal and healthy behavior for human infants.
(2) Your children are not being difficult or manipulative, they are being normal and healthy, and behaving in ways that are appropriate for our species.
Human children are designed to be sleeping with their parents. The sense of touch is the most important sense to primates, along with sight. Young primates are carried on their mother's body and sleep with her for years after birth, often until well after weaning. The expected pattern is for mother and child to sleep together, and for child to be able to nurse whenever they want during the night. Normal, healthy, breastfed and co-sleeping children do not sleep "through the night" (say 7-9 hours at a stretch) until they are 3-4 years old, and no longer need night nursing. I repeat -- this is NORMAL and HEALTHY. Dr. James McKenna's research on co-sleeping clearly shows the dangers of solitary sleeping in young infants, who slip into abnormal patterns of very deep sleep from which it is very difficult for them to rouse themselves when they experience an episode of apnea (stop breathing). When co-sleeping, the mother is monitoring the baby's sleep and breathing patterns, even though she herself is asleep. When the baby has an episode of apnea, she rouses the baby by her movements and touch. This is thought to be the primary mechanism by which co-sleeping protects children from Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. In other words, many cases of SIDS in solitary sleeping children are thought to be due to them having learned to sleep for long stretches at a time at a very early age, so they find themselves in these deep troughs of sleep, then they may experience an episode of apnea, and no one is there to notice or rouse them from it, so they just never start breathing again. Co-sleeping also allows a mother to monitor the baby's temperature during the night, to be there if they spit up and start to choke, and just to provide the normal, safe environment that the baby/child has been designed to expect.



The above is a quote, for the entire article go here:

http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detsleepthrough.html

DS1 was somewhere between three and four and dd is 3.5 and jsut started sleeping through the night.

I am also stealing some of these great responses!
post #44 of 62

Outrageous!!! (Hospital requiring Mothers to sign Anti Co-sleeping form)

Crouse Hospital requiring mothers to sign anti co-sleeping form!

Crouse Hospital of Syracuse NY discourages co-sleeping. I scanned the original documents and uploaded them to flickr.
HERE is their "Fact" sheet. (To enlarge click on magnifying glass)

*Please note the use of the word "Facts"...these are NOT facts, but opinions of the hospital!

HERE is the form that they are requiring mothers to sign!

If you find this as outrageous as I do, feel free to send a letter. I would love to organize a mass mailing:

Crouse Hospital
Kienzle Family Maternity Center
736 Irving Avenue
Syracuse, N.Y. 13210

Kienzle Family Maternity Center (315) 470-7753

Read Dr. Sears' article on the benefits of co-sleeping by clicking here!

"This generation of mothers labors under [the] dubious pronouncement that babies sleep best in isolation. Every infant knows better. His protest at nocturnal solitude contains the wisdom of millennia." - Thomas Lewis, M.D., (A General Theory of Love)

Posted by Wendy of Mother Rising
post #45 of 62
Wow! Sounds like Crouse Hospital advocates CIO too.
post #46 of 62
I had both my sons at Crouse and they MADE me (I could have declined but was young & dumb then...) take a "class" before I could leave - taught me some VERY odd things, like when crying should be answered & I do remember signing some promises but don't recall what they said. I remember being discusted but going with the flow so I could leave. And let me tell you...Crouse is THE BEST hospital in Syracuse! The rest are FARRRRR worse, trust me!
post #47 of 62

Crouse Anti-Co-sleeping

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmzbm View Post
I had both my sons at Crouse and they MADE me (I could have declined but was young & dumb then...) take a "class" before I could leave - taught me some VERY odd things, like when crying should be answered & I do remember signing some promises but don't recall what they said. I remember being discusted but going with the flow so I could leave. And let me tell you...Crouse is THE BEST hospital in Syracuse! The rest are FARRRRR worse, trust me!
Thank you for responding, Marie. I had my son at the Birth Place at St. Joe's and it was a wonderful experience. I was exhausted, but didn't want to put my son down so the nurses propped pillows all around me in such a way that if I fell asleep holding him, no harm would come to him. I found them very supportive and loving.

Wendy from Mother Rising
post #48 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by wlcook View Post
Thank you for responding, Marie. I had my son at the Birth Place at St. Joe's and it was a wonderful experience. I was exhausted, but didn't want to put my son down so the nurses propped pillows all around me in such a way that if I fell asleep holding him, no harm would come to him. I found them very supportive and loving.

Wendy from Mother Rising

Interesting. My Aunt is a nurse at St. Joes...she has shared soem pretty scary things from there...it just depends I guess. I had some WONDERFUL nurses at Crouse, some really bad, too...hit & miss really...in terms of hospitals though...Syracuse is in DIRE straights.
post #49 of 62
Score another for home birth!

I don't know about other cultures, but Americans are just so darn weird about sex, and I think so much of it boils down to that. We all know there are bazillions of sexless marriages where only mom and dad are in the bed; it's an open joke. I wonder if families that co-sleep actually have MORE, not less, physical intimacy between all members of the family. Bf is obviously extremely intimate physically, and I think it is meant to be. Physical bonds are important in a family, and they differ depending on the relationship. In some cultures, the whole family bathes together and no one thinks this is strange at all. Can you imagine telling mainstream mamas that everyone gets in the tub together? My ds (8m0) needed a bath one night at my parent's house, and my mom said I could borrow a bathing suit if I wanted to get in the tub with him! I told her that I didn't mind if he saw me naked. She laughed and realized what a dumb thing she had said.

Oh yeah, I always say that he sleeps beautifully, and nurses often. And when people ask if he is a "good baby," I always say that he is a wonderful baby, but not an easy baby. I don't want a "good" baby. As for sex, I tell people that I the end of the day isn't the best time to have sex, when everyone's tired, and that nap-time makes much more sense. Even Dr. Sears writes as much in his Baby Book.
post #50 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by wlcook View Post
Crouse Hospital requiring mothers to sign anti co-sleeping form!

HERE is the form that they are requiring mothers to sign!

If you find this as outrageous as I do, feel free to send a letter. I would love to organize a mass mailing:

Crouse Hospital
Kienzle Family Maternity Center
736 Irving Avenue
Syracuse, N.Y. 13210

Kienzle Family Maternity Center (315) 470-7753


Posted by Wendy of Mother Rising
grrrr!!!!!

are they asking postpartum moms to sign it, or do they just mean when sick babies (like with IV's, O2, etc), are hospitalized? either way it sucks, but if they're including healthy newborns, then they're really showing it as an attempt to indoctrinate people by intimidation into the "de-tatchment parenting" philosophy (which the "fact" sheet is). it probably also comes from their risk management department trying to pre-establish blame, now that the anti-cosleeping forces (CPSC, crib/formula manufacturers) have gone on the offense with their "research"/press releases/campaign of fear. they'll try to criminalize it next; make it a child abuse issue like they have extended bfing. if i get even more suspicious, i'd wonder if it's coming directly from formula marketers to hospital policy makers to try to derail bf'ing, just like when they provide architects to hospitals, who then design nurseries that are huge (waiting to be filled with de-tached babies) and far away from moms' rooms.

my (then) 3mos old was hospitalized with pneumonia, had IV and O2, and i was told i could cosleep with her at children's hopital in oakland, CA. i kind of implied that i wouldn't admit her if they said no, and i'm 40ish, white, have good insurance, and i'm a physical therapist in a hospital, which makes a difference: more respect and deference instead of attempts to intimidate (unlike my 23yo friend with orange hair and mediCAL, who got no respect at the same hospital).

[i'm not kidding about the difference: new people (MDs/nurses) would come in to the room and say "so i hear you're a nurse..." which shows how it went thru the grapevine/got mentioned in report because hospital workers know they can't bulls*** a peer. and warn each other to be careful. i often get these types of warnings at my hospital. lawyers get treated well, too, and close relatives of lawyers, so if someone you love gets hospitalized, try to slip it in to staff that there's a lawyer in the family, eg "my sister will be here to see mom later, she's tied up in court right now." malpractice fear can be used to your advantage if you don't mind lying to get treated better. sorry to digress so far, but this thread had digressed to what hospitals are trying to get away with].

even so, when we got to the room, it turned out the only place for me to sleep was one of those chair pullouts, which was not a safe cosleeping spot: too skinny between the armrests; i kept squishing and disturbing her. i ended up moving her into the cage/crib, and nursing her to sleep there. at least it was big enough, i fit in there ok since the siderail went all the way down and i could curl up with my butt sticking out the side. the nurses knew, but said nothing (although earlier they had told dh not to sit on it like a couch, citing weight restrictions, while i was holding dd2). to get any sleep myself, though, i had to leave her alone up there, which was horrible. she was so little and sick, and had been born at home and always coslept.

well, i just noticed the responses made since i started this reply (hunt and peck/oht/nak/serving breakfast...). clearly this is their newborn policy. i just wish people knew they don't have to obey this stuff. in my hospital some long term patients (wound care and such) have been known to sell drugs, shoot heroin etc., and they still don't get kicked out!. people are way too obedient of medical personnel, and medical personnel don't know how/want to keep their non-medical opinions to themselves. how and where to sleep is not a medical issue, it's a parenting issue.
post #51 of 62
ot - extended bf a child-abuse issue? tell me more! i was just talking to dh about how i think the cosleeping thing is an establishing blame thing so that they can use it to define abuse in cps cases if they need to.

nak
post #52 of 62
when people asked me this i would say "why should a 3 month old be sleeping through the night?" and then i would look at them like they were nuts. it's the same look i would give people when they would ask me if my son was still nursing. "of course he is, why would i prefer he eat yucky food from a jar or box?"


i think people finally stopped cause they were sick of me treating them like the nuts they are.
post #53 of 62
I haven't read this whole thread yet. But I just have to say my first co-sleeping child just turned 19 and needless to say he is no longer in our bed and hasn't been for many many many years. But I heard the same thing from people back then about how we would never get him out of our bed. GUESS WHAT??? They are wrong.
post #54 of 62
Well I couldn't agree with you more, "formerluddite". As a nurse, what do you feel would be the most effective way to address the Crouse Hospital issue?

BTW, I just posted an old family photo of my brother (now 41) pinned under the bottom rail of his crib.
post #55 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepe View Post
I'm personally in favor of always telling the truth about co-sleeping, "extended" nursing, and so forth, even though it got me scolded by the pediatrician. The more people hear about it (whatever it is), the more common they will realize it is--and if it's something that works for so many people, maybe it isn't so crazy, right?
I think so, too.

Whenever people have asked, I've always answered that dd has no sleeping issues, which I think is true. It never seemed unusual to me that she might wake up during the night and need to be comforted.

When the subject comes up, I readily offer that we cosleep, always saying it with confidence and assurance. Maybe it's my delivery - no one has ever responded in a negative way (they probably know it would be pointless - it's obvious I've made up my mind )
post #56 of 62

In terms of Changing policy

Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
I think so, too.

Whenever people have asked, I've always answered that dd has no sleeping issues, which I think is true. It never seemed unusual to me that she might wake up during the night and need to be comforted.

When the subject comes up, I readily offer that we cosleep, always saying it with confidence and assurance. Maybe it's my delivery - no one has ever responded in a negative way (they probably know it would be pointless - it's obvious I've made up my mind )
Does anyone out there have any suggestions that might facilitate a change in hospital policy or at least a change in the verbage on their "fact" sheet that doesn't mislead the public and promote fear as is the case with the current form.

Wendy: Mama to Satchel born 2005
post #57 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by wlcook View Post
Does anyone out there have any suggestions that might facilitate a change in hospital policy or at least a change in the verbage on their "fact" sheet that doesn't mislead the public and promote fear as is the case with the current form.
Sure, no problem. Here are the "facts" they list on their sheet:

Your child does not need to sleep with a parent to feel happy and secure.
Bed sharing with a parent is not quality time.
Infants who sleep with their parents may not sleep as soundly and may wake up several times per night.
Bed sharing is not a good solution to your child's sleep problems.

Here is a new and improved fact sheet:

Your child needs to sleep with a parent to feel happy and secure.
Bed sharing with a parent is quality time.
Infants who sleep with their parents may sleep more soundly and may not wake as often per night.
Bed sharing is a good solution to your child's sleep problems.

How's that? It's just as accurate and scientifically supported as the original document.

Hope that helps .
post #58 of 62

Manifesting Change

I'm talking politics here...what I need to know is WHAT can be done to manifest change in current hospital policy. Clearly there must be some RNs or MDs in the forum who know the proper channels.

I'm sure we ALL agree that the verbage in this "fact" sheet needs to be change. It shouldn't exist at all as far as I'm concerned, but I need to be realistic. I'm moving from Syracuse very soon...and I would like to start the ball rolling on this issue before I go.

I thought this forum would be a good place to connect with like-minded, intelligent and loving parents who could brainstorm with me and make changes.

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world"- Gandhi
post #59 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
I think so, too.

Whenever people have asked, I've always answered that dd has no sleeping issues, which I think is true. It never seemed unusual to me that she might wake up during the night and need to be comforted.

When the subject comes up, I readily offer that we cosleep, always saying it with confidence and assurance. Maybe it's my delivery - no one has ever responded in a negative way (they probably know it would be pointless - it's obvious I've made up my mind )
The fact that you're a surgeon might help too, you know. Some of us lesser mortals can catch a whole lot of hell for telling the truth and don't feel like fighting an uphill battle every single time.
post #60 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by formerluddite View Post
they'll try to criminalize it next; make it a child abuse issue like they have extended bfing.
For famillies who have the state involved in their lives for any reason -- it already IS often made into an issue. Of course, this depends a lot on the individual caseworker.

Some friends of ours moved to Kansas, and looked into continuing doing foster care there as they had in our state. They gave up because there were so many regulations. They were told that not only was it illegal for them to have foster children in bed with them: in Kansas it's illegal for parents to share sleep with their OWN children as well. Of course, this probably isn't an issue for most Kansas parents, just so long as they don't have caseworkers visiting their homes. And even then, if there's a bed for each child it probably won't even be thought about unless somebody tells the caseworker where the kids REALLY sleep.

I did hear of a Kansas grandfather who had custody of his grandson (I think the gs was three): when the caseworker visited, she told him he had to get a bed for his grandson and quit sleeping with him.
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