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Having carnivourous by nature pets on a veg diet? - Page 2

post #21 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by defectgrrrl View Post
Cats do not *need* meat, and neither do dogs. I suggest reading the book Obligate Carnivore

As for animals being ment to eat meat because of the way their systems are. They were ment to eat meat not proccesed products formed into pellets (no matter how local or ethical the company is). So if that's your reasoning behind contributing to the torture and slaughter of innocent animals I certainly hope your doing what there designed to and feeding them raw whole meat.

Now ask yourself this: if that pet food were made out cats and dogs instead of cows, chickens and pigs would you still be okay buying it? What makes say a dog worth more than a pig?
Ummmmmm, look, I was looking for a discussion that's all. I tried to sound unbiased simply because I was just looking for other people's opions and ideas. I don't think you needed to come off so rudely.
And also, I stated that I am aware of the torture that goes on in conventional pet food companies.
People learn by being treated kindly and with respect, Not like they are stupid and need to be yelled at.
And thank you for clarifying that I want veg*n's points of views. Although I respect what everyone has to say and of course everyone can answer, I am curious about people who chose ot live with a diet similar to mine inparticular.
post #22 of 82
I'm not a vegan, or even a vegetarian but I agree that humans are probably not meant to eat meat. At least not in the quantity we do. However, various circumstances prevent me from eating the way I know I should. I stand by my argument that cats, especially, NEED meat in their diet. That's what is natural for them. I don't understand why anyone would force an unnatural diet on their animals when they use the same logic to explain their personal diet. If I were 100% vegan, I would not force my cats to be. Children are different as they are humans and the argument that humans aren't meant to eat meat still holds.
post #23 of 82
Cats communicate pretty well if you pay attention. I've had to throw out or give away plenty of bags of food (meat based) because my cat didn't like it. I've seen her pick through kibble to sort the kind she liked from the kind she didn't when I tried to mix them. I've had her MEEP at me angrily until I put better food in the bowl. My in-laws cats were offered veg food and didn't like it, so they eat meat food. My cats like it a lot. The older one wasn't sure so she let the younger one try it first. He took a bite from my hand and started seaching for more so she took it as a good sign and tried it and loved it. I've had no complaints or meeps, unless the bowl is only half full because that's just too close to empty for them. I would certainly not force my cats to do anything.
post #24 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanno View Post
In wild settings, an 8 pound cat would not kill and eat a cow. I have never seen mouse, insect or sparrow food on the market.
Things are pretty heated on this issue but I guess I don't feel too bad 'forcing my morals' on my dog and cats just as I will any children under my care.
As long as they are happy and healthy and satisfied with their vegan diets I will continue to feed it to them. When the kitties switched, they actually were more eager to eat the veg food then they ever have the expensive organic stuff I used to get them. Their coats became softer in weeks and in 6 months the too-skinny one filled out and the too-fat one got down to a good size and has more energy and plays a lot more. Their ph is perfect (better than mine even). Honestly, my dog's coat was like silk when we got her, and it still is on a veg diet. She's in great health. I can't really tell what she prefers because she'll get uber excited to eat anything at all you put in front of her, moreso if you come bearing cooked squash.
That's a good point.

We had the same reaction here when we switched. And my dog eats whole carrots as a treat *lol* He sees the bag in the fridge and starts begging.
post #25 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzo View Post
Ummmmmm, look, I was looking for a discussion that's all. I tried to sound unbiased simply because I was just looking for other people's opions and ideas. I don't think you needed to come off so rudely.
And also, I stated that I am aware of the torture that goes on in conventional pet food companies.
People learn by being treated kindly and with respect, Not like they are stupid and need to be yelled at.
And thank you for clarifying that I want veg*n's points of views. Although I respect what everyone has to say and of course everyone can answer, I am curious about people who chose ot live with a diet similar to mine inparticular.
This is a subject I feel strongly about. I wasn't talking about conventional pet food companies I was talking about the meat industry. You wanted opinions and I put mine out there, I'm sorry if you felt it was rude. Please realize that as an animal rights activist I am extremely passionate about issues like these.
post #26 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by defectgrrrl View Post
This is a subject I feel strongly about. I wasn't talking about conventional pet food companies I was talking about the meat industry. You wanted opinions and I put mine out there, I'm sorry if you felt it was rude. Please realize that as an animal rights activist I am extremely passionate about issues like these.
Well then, you want your cat to eat a close to as natural diet as possible:

First off, get a plastic kiddy pool. or just use your bath tub.

toss a mouse in the tub Put your cat in there. voila fed mouse

Get some feeder goldfish, let your cat eat out of the goldfish bowl.

Get a few cheap birds. let your cat eat that.

Cats are preditors. You dont want to support the factory farm, then there are ways to keep your animal happy and healthy and allowing it it's natural diet of MEAT.

But if your ethics rebuke that thought, DONT own a cat.

Cats in the wild (And yes, that includes fereal domesticated cats) Get their veggies from gut loaded prey.

Cats need taurine and various B vitamins to thrive properly. Guess what, those are available in meat...which a cat's stomach and intestines are built to digest.

Also cat's urinary systems are very delicate. Heck even commercial pet foods aren't good for cats urinary systems! I'll even give it that much! A cat fed closest to it's natural diet as can be will thrive and live a long healthy life. I've known barn cats who've never been fed a scrap of commercial pet food, but just subsided off of prey items, live for over 20 years. That's right. That's 5 more years than the average house cat, purely natural diet of prey.
post #27 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora114 View Post
Well then, you want your cat to eat a close to as natural diet as possible:

First off, get a plastic kiddy pool. or just use your bath tub.

toss a mouse in the tub Put your cat in there. voila fed mouse

Get some feeder goldfish, let your cat eat out of the goldfish bowl.

Get a few cheap birds. let your cat eat that.

Cats are preditors. You dont want to support the factory farm, then there are ways to keep your animal happy and healthy and allowing it it's natural diet of MEAT.

But if your ethics rebuke that thought, DONT own a cat.

Cats in the wild (And yes, that includes fereal domesticated cats) Get their veggies from gut loaded prey.

Cats need taurine and various B vitamins to thrive properly. Guess what, those are available in meat...which a cat's stomach and intestines are built to digest.

Also cat's urinary systems are very delicate. Heck even commercial pet foods aren't good for cats urinary systems! I'll even give it that much! A cat fed closest to it's natural diet as can be will thrive and live a long healthy life. I've known barn cats who've never been fed a scrap of commercial pet food, but just subsided off of prey items, live for over 20 years. That's right. That's 5 more years than the average house cat, purely natural diet of prey.
Thanks for your input but I can see how my cats are thriving and so can their vet.
post #28 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanno View Post
Cats communicate pretty well if you pay attention. I've had to throw out or give away plenty of bags of food (meat based) because my cat didn't like it. I've seen her pick through kibble to sort the kind she liked from the kind she didn't when I tried to mix them. I've had her MEEP at me angrily until I put better food in the bowl. My in-laws cats were offered veg food and didn't like it, so they eat meat food. My cats like it a lot. The older one wasn't sure so she let the younger one try it first. He took a bite from my hand and started seaching for more so she took it as a good sign and tried it and loved it. I've had no complaints or meeps, unless the bowl is only half full because that's just too close to empty for them. I would certainly not force my cats to do anything.
I just hav to at this a little bit. This is why I love cats. They are so finicky and particular and not at all afraid to let you know what they want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by defectgrrrl View Post
And my dog eats whole carrots as a treat *lol* He sees the bag in the fridge and starts begging.
My dogs eat carrots as a treat too!

And for the record, not that I was planning to weigh in on this, but... One of my dogs does so.much.better. on a vegetarian diet due to his various allergies and skin/coat issues. The other dog could probably exist on what she dug out of the garbage can and thrive, but the one dog does better when he's veggie. I first discovered it when I tried avoderm veg. formula, which I took him off because it has soy and some studies show that it affects the lifespan of dogs. I haven't heard any studies that show how it is damaging. I just avoid it now.
post #29 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by vgnmama2keller View Post
We are a vegan household and so is our dog. We buy our veggie dog food from petco and while I hate to give them money we can't afford or get to any other veggie dog foods.
Can you tell me what kind you are using? Currently we feed our dogs and cats not veg food - we use Wellness products - but each time I buy a huge bag of food I feel ill. I would love to be able to try the dogs at least on a veg food and see how they do. One of our dogs is a Saint Bernard so he eats A LOT!

I do think the cats need animal product so I wouldn't try switching them, although I might switch to a raw meat diet for them.
post #30 of 82
I'm a vegetarian ... and a vegan at home (I eat dairy out at other people's homes or in restaurants). I have a GSD who is a working dog. We train Schutzhund. I feed him a very high quality kibble that mainly has meat in it. I'd feed him raw, but I've tried everything under the sun and he won't touch it. He's just weird like that.

My dog exerts a lot of energy daily. He has a lot of muscle mass. He's powerful. In order to sustain that ... he needs a little more than vegetables. So, I provide it. For him, meat provides everything he needs. Dogs can't even digest vegetables on their own - you have to run them through a food processor first. In the wild, NO dog would choose a vegetable over that bunny hopping to the left. Whereas, if you put a 21st century human into the wild, I'm betting a lot of us would opt for the vegetable rather than chasing a bunny down.

I eat vegetarian/vegan because I think that is what's best for my body. I've seen a huge difference in terms of my health and energy when I switched to vegan. I don't do it for any other reason except health, i.e. I don't do it out of love for cows or pigs. I feed Roark meat for the same reason - it's what he needs, and what is best for his body in terms of the type of work we are involved in.

I would, however, be interested in seeing a long term study comparing the health, energy, and vitality of dogs fed meat and dogs fed a vegetarian diet. Short of that, nothing will convince me that meat isn't best for my dog.
post #31 of 82
Domesticated cats eat various veggies because of what WE have done to them. Most are totally sugar addicted. Just because a human could subsist on Snickers bars doesn't mean it's ideal, same goes for veg diet in felines. Their kidneys and pancreas suffer GREATLY from a vegatarian diet.
We had a client at a clinic I worked at. She INSISTED that her cats were most healthy on their veggie diet. We looked back through her chart one day. Over 11 yrs, she'd had 17 cats (a bit of a cat lady) all indoor, never outdoor, no vaccines, no unnecessary medication. Of those 17 cats, 4 lived past 8, 2 lived past 10 and they ALL died before the age of 12. All of kidney failure, diabetes or heart failure. An indoor cat who is unvaxxed should NOT die that young.
It's unnatural.
And the book Obligate Carnivore. I've read it, and if you read it closely you will see that the studies are about as valid as studies that show the flu shot is perfectly safe. That book is considered a joke in animal nutrition.
post #32 of 82
Where did this thread come from? TAO? If it came from a vegan/veg tribe I don't want to offend.

But--both cats and dogs are carnivores. Cats are true or obligate carnivores, while dogs are carnivores who will also scavenge and will eat SOME vegetable matter but not much.

I have fed whole prey to my dogs, including whole deer and a big part of a cow. I watched what they ate and what they rejected, and they did not willingly eat the stomach contents until they had no other choice. Every other part, including fat and bone, was preferable to stomach contents.
post #33 of 82
Was that you, thekimballs, that I read about having one of your dogs climb inside a carrion and refuse to come out?

Also, not meant in a snarky way, but I cannot imagine a corgi taking out a deer or a cow. Though it is amusing to try!
post #34 of 82
Ha! No, not me. The Danes were plenty big to both take down and eat a deer--in fact, one of "my" puppies (from my breeding) took down a full-grown buck about a year ago. It jumped into the fenced area she shared with another Dane and that was it for that deer.

Clue could eat a rabbit whole, but not a deer. She's too small yet to handle big bones--we'll see what happens when she's bigger. I know other Cardigan breeders who feed raw, but none of them feed prey-model like I did. I doubt I'll ever feed her whole deer or cow, but if I can find a source for rabbits I'd love to feed whole animals again.
post #35 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by defectgrrrl View Post
This is a subject I feel strongly about. I wasn't talking about conventional pet food companies I was talking about the meat industry. You wanted opinions and I put mine out there, I'm sorry if you felt it was rude. Please realize that as an animal rights activist I am extremely passionate about issues like these.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thekimballs View Post
Ha! No, not me. The Danes were plenty big to both take down and eat a deer--in fact, one of "my" puppies (from my breeding) took down a full-grown buck about a year ago. It jumped into the fenced area she shared with another Dane and that was it for that deer.

Clue could eat a rabbit whole, but not a deer. She's too small yet to handle big bones--we'll see what happens when she's bigger. I know other Cardigan breeders who feed raw, but none of them feed prey-model like I did. I doubt I'll ever feed her whole deer or cow, but if I can find a source for rabbits I'd love to feed whole animals again.
Weren't Danes originally bred to help hunt large game????
post #36 of 82
Another thing to keep in mind, for the most part, most canids are scavengers, so when available they will always pick the already dead or wounded, if that is not available, they will hunt and kill. Cats on the other hand are predators.
post #37 of 82
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post #38 of 82
yuck
post #39 of 82
Does anyone else really hate it when someone just interjects one word that we're all supposed to be taken aback by without backing it up in anyway...even with which side of the argument said person is on??
post #40 of 82
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