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Having carnivourous by nature pets on a veg diet? - Page 3

post #41 of 82
Something to keep in mind here. A previous poster claimed that cats don't *need* meat. Technically this is true, a cat *can survive* on an artificially manufactured diet that uses unnatural sources to meet CRUCIAL needs. That said, I've known many a toddler who *could survive* on pasta. I've known many a human who *can survive* on nothing but junk food. Because they infact CAN survive on this, does that now make it ok to shove your judgements onto an innocent animal who left to his own devices would choose otherwise?? Does it make it hunky dorey to put additional stress on his kidneys...kidneys that were NOT designed to break down any protein that wasn't meat based?? Just because something CAN live without certain things, does that now make it the ideal way to nourish that being??

When I think of what an animal NEEDS, I think about what he'd NEED if he were to suddenly have to survive on his own. Since taurine is an absolute necessity and taurine is BEST used by the animal in the form of organ meat or at least dark meat, yes, indeed the cat NEEDS meat. Oh, and I have farm cats, they hunt and they ALWAYS leave stomach contents untouched.
post #42 of 82
Nothing against you at all Annie, I just really hate when someone throws a judgement out but isn't willing to own it ya know.
Perhaps I should have extended my break, I'm having trouble being charitable.
post #43 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by shannon0218 View Post
Something to keep in mind here. A previous poster claimed that cats don't *need* meat. Technically this is true, a cat *can survive* on an artificially manufactured diet that uses unnatural sources to meet CRUCIAL needs. That said, I've known many a toddler who *could survive* on pasta. I've known many a human who *can survive* on nothing but junk food. Because they infact CAN survive on this, does that now make it ok to shove your judgements onto an innocent animal who left to his own devices would choose otherwise?? Does it make it hunky dorey to put additional stress on his kidneys...kidneys that were NOT designed to break down any protein that wasn't meat based?? Just because something CAN live without certain things, does that now make it the ideal way to nourish that being??

When I think of what an animal NEEDS, I think about what he'd NEED if he were to suddenly have to survive on his own. Since taurine is an absolute necessity and taurine is BEST used by the animal in the form of organ meat or at least dark meat, yes, indeed the cat NEEDS meat. Oh, and I have farm cats, they hunt and they ALWAYS leave stomach contents untouched.
Really? I've seen some barn cats eat the stomach contents...oh wait, they were most always gestating females....and we all know gestating females have some wierd tastes hehehe

My grandfather in Quebec had a barn cat. She was unspayed, unvaxed, had two litters of kittens a year...(Granpapa always found homes for them though..) and she lived, no word of a lie to be over 20 years old. Not a single piece of processed cat food passed her teeth. She ate strait prey. Mice, birds, garter snakes, voles...her coat was sleek and shiny, not a flea on her. Sweetest most lovable cat out there too...gorgeous Tortie..

My Stuffy Kat always left the heads and stomachs of his kills (He was an indoor cat but almost everywhere I lived with him had a mouse problem...hence how I was able to keep a cat while poor)
post #44 of 82
I believe that, just like many 'hot topics', there are facts, studies and anecdotal evidence both reliable and questionable that could be presented for either side of the argument. What is of greatest importance is that we share our thoughts with one another in a caring and tactful way and that each family does what is right for them. It is clear by the fact that we are here and talking about it that we all love our pets very much and spend time, energy, and money caring for them in the best way we can. I can respect people who give their pets meat and are happy to see them thrive, and I hope for the same respect for people like myself who are happy to see thiers thrive on a veg diet.
Now I need to snuzzle some fuzzies : : :
post #45 of 82
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post #46 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora114 View Post
Weren't Danes originally bred to help hunt large game????
Yes and no. There was a very large boarhound bred to course boar, and the Danes we know are most directly related to those dogs, but it's been several hundred years. The nobility (and nobility wannabes) bred those dogs to a more extreme, more refined, much taller form, and kept them purely as objects of beauty. Some Danes retain a lot of prey drive but many do not. The purely objects of beauty thing is one of the reasons I am no longer going to breed them--with no practical purpose, there's nothing keeping them from becoming ever more extreme, ever more attenuated, ever more unhealthy.
post #47 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by thekimballs View Post
Where did this thread come from? TAO? If it came from a vegan/veg tribe I don't want to offend.
It originated in the vegetarian / vegan forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon0218
Because they infact CAN survive on this, does that now make it ok to shove your judgements onto an innocent animal who left to his own devices would choose otherwise??
That was really, really harsh and totally uncalled for. This topic came up because as veg*ns, many of us are concerned about animals being tortured and slaughtered for pet food. We are trying to save many innocent animals, not just the ones that reside in our homes. It's not about "shoving judgment" onto anyone. It is a totally reasonable topic of conversation and something that's really important to many of us.
post #48 of 82
Ok Hello Kitty, I don't know what your beef is with me, and honestly, I couldnt' care less. I was one of many people who made the same basic statement and I didn't say it in a more harsh way than anyone else did. It is TRUE. Yes indeed an animal CAN survive without eating meat (although I do NOT believe that for cats, they will not survive long) but they do not tend to thrive not eating meat. It's sort of like eating dog chow, can a dog sustain life on it, absolutely they can, that does not in ANY way make it an ideal diet for a dog. If the only real concern was having people say "oh yes, it's all good" then really the op should request that a mod move it BACK to veg. I was NOT aware of WHERE it came from, I do NOT have magic powers. When it moved out of Vegans, and moved here to pets, it encountered a whole lot of us for whom animal nutrition is REALLY IMPORTANT. I am aware that what is really important to you should also be really important to everyone, but it's not always going to work that way. The OP (not you) asked opinions, she was provided with them. I did not in ANY way target you, nope, not one bit.
Do me a favor, if you don't like me, put me on ignore cause I'm kinda sick of you jumping down my throat on all these threads, especially when it's about something that I have researched to death and is infact my area of expertise.
post #49 of 82
And I do agree with Pandorra, if your beliefs of saving a certain animal at all costs are what is important, I can absolutely respect that, but if that is the belief and you hold it that strong, then you should seek out pets that CAN and DO thrive on a diet that is more in holding with your beliefs. Bunnies make awesome pets, as do lhamas if you want something larger.
An example on a much lower scale. I love the doberman breed, but frankly, I don't like the way they look with a natural ear (even though I prefer every other cropped breed natural) I HATE the idea of cropping a pup though, so for me, because my want and my belief can't be easily reconciled...I don't own a dobe. Period.
post #50 of 82
Huh? Where did that even come from? I honestly have no idea what you are talking about as I don't remember even sharing a thread with you before... I think you should maybe check your history because you might be confusing me with someone else.

I thought accusing someone of shoving their judgment down their pet's throat by wanting to feed it vegetarian food was really harsh so I pointed it out, that's why I quoted you and not someone else

I respect that you have animal knowledge and appreciate your input on such subjects, I just thought in this case your delivery was insensitive.
post #51 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by HelloKitty View Post
That was really, really harsh and totally uncalled for. This topic came up because as veg*ns, many of us are concerned about animals being tortured and slaughtered for pet food. We are trying to save many innocent animals, not just the ones that reside in our homes. It's not about "shoving judgment" onto anyone. It is a totally reasonable topic of conversation and something that's really important to many of us.
And if left to it's own devices, your cat, would torture and slaughter innocent birds, mice, snakes.....

It's called the food chain and your cat is an apex preditor.

Technically your cat would be torturing and slaughtering innocent animals for pet food if left to it's own devices.

it's the way a cat is. You can't change the nature of the beast.

And if you've seen a cat acctually catch a mouse, it isn't a very pretty sight that's for sure....they acctually DO Play with it, toss it in the air, bat it around, even little carni me finds it somewhat appalling.

Nature of the beast though. I can't change the cat, I dont want to change the cat. Cat's were originally domesticated for their highly preditory instincts, to keep graneries free of mice and other rodents, remember that.

We sure didn't domesticate them (heck I dont even think they are even fully domesticated, look how fast they go back to wild) for the companionship aspect. Same with Dogs. Dogs were originally domesticated to help us hunt.
post #52 of 82
I'm not trying to change the nature of my cats, and like I said in a previous post, I will continue to feed my cats meat because I think they need it. Still, that doesn't make me feel any less badly about the animals that died to feed my cats.

My dogs on the other hand I'm not so sure about, I'm not sure they need meat so I'm interested in this discussion. Right now I do feed them meat based dog food - but the vegan in me feels really sick picking up that huge bag of food every week so I wonder if they need it. Or if they could at least use less meat? Maybe vegetarian dog food but meat snacks?
post #53 of 82
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post #54 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by super kitty View Post
A lot of what we like to feed to are the parts that are being thrown away. I like the less waste factor and do think it's healthier for my dog to eat the whole animal.
I like that too. What did you do - just ask at a butcher store for the parts that will be thrown away? How does that work?
post #55 of 82
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post #56 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by super kitty View Post
Sometimes I ask for freezer burnt meat on Freecycle. I've gotten boxes filled with locally hunted meat, organic chicken and lots of lamb this way. Frozen burnt doesn't mean anything to dogs.
What an awesome idea!!!!!
post #57 of 82
Depending on where you are, you can source meaty bones for dogs at very low cost and from waste parts.

Any deer processor is going to be throwing away a TON of larger bones--great for anything Lab-sized or larger. Those are typically killed instantly, and are certainly not factory farmed. You can also check out local small slaughterhouses and ask for waste pieces. Small slaughterhouses are EVERYWHERE--extremely urban environments as well as rural. They service particular religious/ethnic groups as well as local farmers, and the meat killed there is not typically feedlotted.

Any of these options will get you a lot closer to the actual death of the animal, but frankly I think that's a good thing. The less processing, the fewer people have profited, and if that's important to you you can really eliminate all the middlemen.

My sister is a vegetarian (technically ovo-lacto, but very limited on both) and she feeds her cats a grain-free kibble that has a very high meat content. She tried a more veg-friendly diet and her cats did not do well--obese and smelly.
post #58 of 82
Really great advice, thank you. Any idea of how to find out about local slaughterhouses? Is this something listed in the phone book? I'm sorry. That's dumb. I'm just clueless about stuff like this.
post #59 of 82
Where do you live? Here's a directory for the northeast:
http://sheepgoatmarketing.info/PageL...ort.cfm&type=6

Look at the words on the page--livestock processing, USDA slaughterhouse, etc. and do google searches with your own state or region.
post #60 of 82
I live in Mass, on the Cape! You rock! Thank you so much!!!
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