Having carnivourous by nature pets on a veg diet? - Page 4

[thekimballs]

Oh, goodness, if you're here you're all set. If you want to feed a very easy, gag-free raw diet that is sourced from good products you need to talk to Geri. She sells Bravo! food for pets, which is a pre-ground raw diet. I've PMed you her full name and phone number. Several of Bravo's products are natural and/or free-range, and Geri runs the new england raw co-op, which sources items from all across the region and can get organic/grass-fed etc.

[HelloKitty]

You are my very favorite person today. :

[shannon0218]

ok, my apology, perhaps "shove" was too strong a word, impose is more what I was going for. Certain posters on this thread (not you HK) implying that just because an animal CAN survive without meat that they should...regardless of whether that would be their NATURAL choice, are indeed imposing thier values on an animal that is biologically designed to THRIVE on something else is what I was getting at. Yes, a human child could survive on lucky charms and snickers bars, but that doesn't make it right or even remotely close to healthy...that's the comparison I was drawing. I do believe though that if the bio appropriate and even more importantly the bio available diet for an animal is meat and someone chooses to feed it something meat free solely because of their own beliefs, they are imposing those beliefs on the animal.
Perhaps my upset with this thread is related to the fact that we just learned one of our young dogs sold to a pet home had recently died. 5 yrs old and his kidneys and liver were SHOT. He'd been eating a veg diet--not even vegan. But his primary protein source was soy and corn. Where this poses a problem is that dogs cannot efficiently USE the protein in soy or corn, so processing them in the body causes huge stress on the kidneys and increased waste for the liver to process. So yeah, I'm a little angry right now that because these particular owners decided that because veg was best for them it was also best for their dog, a 5 yr old dog is no longer.
That said, the only veg diet I'd consider for a dog is either homemade using primarily egg as protein source (egg actually has excellent bio available protein for dogs) or I have heard good things about Natural Life's veg formula. What I have found that is terribly unfortunate is the veg formulas that seem to be manufactured for and sold in human health food stores, give the illusion of being healthy simply by how they are marketed but when you break things down, they are woefully inadequate for a dog (or cat) It was one of these diets that our young dog was on for his short 5 yrs. After seeing the condition of his organs on post mortem, his vet looked into the food and actually sent it off to a holistic vet he knows that specialized in nutrition, they were told it was lucky the dog had survived 5 yrs on that food. While I'm angry, I do know that the owners *thought* they were doing right by the dog and they are devastated to the core. The real lousy point is they were paying 4 times as much money to feed this food as what it would have cost them to feed a good quality kibble and way more than it would have cost to feed raw.
While I totally agree that raw is the way to go, I can also see how that would be very difficult for a veg to provide.

Anyway, this is a very passionate issue for me too as you can see. And thanks for the pm hk.

[Mamma Mia]

The point, Shannon, is that many of us have serious ethical concerns about what we feed our pets that extend toward other animals besides our pets. How many animals are tortured and slaughtered inhumanely to feed my dogs each week? How do I rate those deaths? Were those animals more valuable than the lives of my pets?

You make the argument that children can survive on lucky charms if they *have* to. If human rights were being violated and people were being killed for my child's nutritional needs, I would feed her Lucky Charms, if that was the only humane option, until I found something more humane. Meaning that until I figure out a system to feed my pets and family without supporting the factory farming industry that so inhumanely slaughters millions of animals each year I'm not going to.

I don't believe that feeding my domesticated dog that should not have even been bred the highest quality raw meats so that he can have the absolute best diet takes precedence over the larger issue, which is that millions of animals feel pain and suffer so that a bunch of rich white guys can get richer.

And if that were to shorten the lifespan of my cat a few years, or my dog a few years, at least those were happy, fun years that they spent. How many other animals were not in agony during those years? I will impose my beliefs on my dogs. Just like we all impose our beliefs on our children. I don't think it's healthy for children to drink cow's milk. Children can survive on it and even appear to thrive on it. Hell, in the 70s some docs told mothers to breastfeed with only nonfat cow's milk and those kids grew up to be *just fine* Milk increases the of diabetes, amongst other things, and it is not a natural part of the human diet. We should not be eating it. And yet I am guessing that you and others who share your opinion don't think twice about feeding your children milk and milk products. As long as it's raw, right?

So yeah, I agree that your perspective is harsh, but I also think it's one sided. You're not seeing a bigger picture that exists for those of us who love all animals and not just domesticated dogs and cats.

I think that saying feeding domesticated pets a meat diet at the expense of factory farmed animals could be compared to saying that the absolute best foods ever in my own diet are worth the livelihood of other families. I don't agree with that, which is why I buy fair trade, family farmed whenever possible, which is most of the time. If those things were not as available I would make sacrifices, yes. And I have.

[Pandora114]

If you dont want your CARNIVORE to eat MEAT then dont OWN a Carnivore, that way you wont be contributing to the slaughter of animals either way.

Your dog is NOT meant to eat plant based protien. His Kidneys and liver are NOT designed to process it.

If owning a CARNIVORE does not jive with your ethical beliefs, then don't own one. Dont' TORTURE YOUR OWN PET for your own ethical beliefs. Feeding the wrong diet to the wrong kind of biotype is just that torture. Just like Cows and sheep and the like are meant to be free and eat grass and not corn and cow (hello that's how mad cow disease came into play btw) feed, Dogs and cats aren't designed to eat soy based proteins.


You muck with an animals natural diet and you do torture it. It's cruel.

You should really look into getting a rabbit next time. That way you wont be causing any unnessesary pain on ANY animal.

[Mamma Mia]

Wow, that was a pretty offensive post.

I do not eat a "natural diet" and I am not tortured. My dogs live a happy and healthy life and I am not concerned about whether or not I'm torturing them. I don't OWN any carnivores, I care for two dogs who would otherwise be roadkill or pound puppies.

Are mothers who feed their kids processed food also torturing them? Should they get cockroaches instead of children?

If you even read any of my posts I specifically pointed out that I do not feed my pets soy.

You are being totally reactionary and rude. Comparing the actual torture and slaughter of factory farmed animals to feeding a dog a vegetarian diet? That's like the folks who compare factory farming to the holocaust. It's offensive and inaccurate.

At least one of my dogs would be dead if I didn't "own" them, and since she is 16 years old and healthier than most 10 year old dogs, I am not concerned in any way that I am torturing her.

[livinzoo]

Hmmm... I don't understand owning an animal that requires a diet you don't agree with. If you don't want to feed an animal mice and rats don't get a boa. They need mice and rats. If you don't want to feed any meat don't get an animal that should have it. Get a bird or Guinea pig or a vegitarian fish (most fish food has fish in it).

Have you heard of Pottenger's cats? This experiment involved feeding raw meat to one group and cooked meat to the other group. Here is a link: http://www.price-pottenger.org/Articles/PottsCats.html

I would definitely think feeding veg would have similar if not worsre results than feeding cooked meat.

If feeding Lucky charms was the only humane thing to feed your child but it meant that she/he would die early and have health problems would you still feed that? Or would you decide that maybe that was inhumane to your child and that although the diet he/she needed to be healthy and live a long life was inhumane, doing the right thing for your childs health was more important?

Personally I am a raw feeder for my cats, dogs and snakes.

[Mamma Mia]

Is it okay for me to kill your dog to feed my child? If dog was the most nutritionally apprpriate food to feed her, could I slaughter dogs and keep them in cages and prod them with sticks and feed them cornmeal? I mean, if her lifespan would theoretically be shortened by feeding her a more ethical alternative...

IMO there is a balance to be struck between all the ethical pulls we have in this world. I have not seen that my dogs' health has suffered. Rather, the younger dog does loads better on a vegetarian diet, and like the said, the older one is 16 and healthier than most 10 year old dogs, so I have no health concerns about her. Her biggest health ailment is very mild arthritis in her back legs that isn't currently causing any problems for her.

Many of us had pets before we were veg*ns, and like me, many of us didn't have a choice. Stray dogs sometimes come into your life and there is no other home to be found.

I believe that it is extremely unethical to breed or to buy dogs. I am a guardian of two dogs that didn't have a choice over whther or not they existed. Both have been bred away from any real natural instinct, one has been bred into such serious allergies that IME the only food that works for him is a vegetarian food. I am housing and loving these dogs who were brought into this world by greedy and irresponsible humans. I take care of them in a way that I hope no other animals are harmed for their existance.

I balance my ethics and morals and yet I don't foist them on others or insult them. I believe it is also unethical to keep snakes as pets. Wild animals are wild and should not be kept as pets. I believe that what you are doing is a disservice to your pets. And yet I have not jumped in to attack your way of balancing your ethics and beliefs.

Do you see what I'm getting at? This is not a black and white issue. I do not agree with your set of ethics, but I would not attack you for them. I merely live my life as I believe will leave the smallest footprint on the earth. Being veg*n and having a veg*n family is a part of that.

[livinzoo]

I'm sorry if you felt I was attacking, I didn't mean too. My biggest problem with veg food is cats that are fed it. Cats have requirements that cannot be met on that diet.

I think our ethics are a bit closer than you think. The majority of my animals are rescues. And would be dead if I didn't take them in.

I don't like to support the large factory farms either. But at the present time my chicken that I feed my animals is commercially bought. I can't afford to feed organic free range chicken. I eat a small amount of bison myself occasionally and it is grass fed, no antibiotics or horomones. The snakes eat rats that I bred, fed and killed. I actually love rats and it is a hard thing to do. But I feel that being raised by me in a happy, healthy environment and fed the most nutritious food I can is the best thing I can do for the prey items my snakes require.

Currently I am looking into raising ducks for meat for my dogs and cats. They would be fed organic food and allowed to free range. I am researching methods to humanely kill them that I feel comfortable with. I am also thinking about getting ducks for eggs to feed my animals.

I not only worry about the mistreatment of commercial meat but I also worry about its nutritional value. Truthfully, an animal fed corn meal, orange rinds and rendered animals is not as healthy as one allowed to free range and eat a biologically appropriate food for itself. And therefore it will not pass on the health benefits of a free range animal.

And on the same note I worry about the pesticides sprayed on fruits and veggies and the soil that they are grown in. This is why I'm also looking into growing my one vegetables.

I personally am focused on what I can control and am working on making sure my family (which includes my animals) are the healthiest they can be. I do this by feeding the most biologically appropriate food I can afford and have time for.

[Mamma Mia]

And I personally am focused on how my actions impact those around me in the world, not only my immediate family.

I am not trying to judge you or anyone. Just like I wouldn't say to a WOHM, "Why have kids if you're not even going to raise them?" I don't appreciate, "Why have dogs if you're not going to feed them meat?"

I believe that while you and I both care about the welfare of animals, we balance our ethics in different ways. But I would never imply that you didn't love your pets or were doing them a disservice. I believe that my dogs would choose food that didn't hurt other animals if they were able to be cognizant of the issues of abuse surrounding farmed animals. These are dogs that clean kittens and rescue pigeons, dogs who can have played with non food chickens and geese at a ranch. These are domesticated animals. Just like we are not cave people, my dogs are not wild. They do not have to be concerned with eat to live. I do not feel guilty about making ethical choices for all of us.

[super kitty]

*

[hanno]

Originally Posted by Mamma Mia

The point, Shannon, is that many of us have serious ethical concerns about what we feed our pets that extend toward other animals besides our pets. How many animals are tortured and slaughtered inhumanely to feed my dogs each week? How do I rate those deaths? Were those animals more valuable than the lives of my pets?

You make the argument that children can survive on lucky charms if they *have* to. If human rights were being violated and people were being killed for my child's nutritional needs, I would feed her Lucky Charms, if that was the only humane option, until I found something more humane. Meaning that until I figure out a system to feed my pets and family without supporting the factory farming industry that so inhumanely slaughters millions of animals each year I'm not going to.

I don't believe that feeding my domesticated dog that should not have even been bred the highest quality raw meats so that he can have the absolute best diet takes precedence over the larger issue, which is that millions of animals feel pain and suffer so that a bunch of rich white guys can get richer.

And if that were to shorten the lifespan of my cat a few years, or my dog a few years, at least those were happy, fun years that they spent. How many other animals were not in agony during those years? I will impose my beliefs on my dogs. Just like we all impose our beliefs on our children. I don't think it's healthy for children to drink cow's milk. Children can survive on it and even appear to thrive on it. Hell, in the 70s some docs told mothers to breastfeed with only nonfat cow's milk and those kids grew up to be *just fine* Milk increases the of diabetes, amongst other things, and it is not a natural part of the human diet. We should not be eating it. And yet I am guessing that you and others who share your opinion don't think twice about feeding your children milk and milk products. As long as it's raw, right?

So yeah, I agree that your perspective is harsh, but I also think it's one sided. You're not seeing a bigger picture that exists for those of us who love all animals and not just domesticated dogs and cats.

I think that saying feeding domesticated pets a meat diet at the expense of factory farmed animals could be compared to saying that the absolute best foods ever in my own diet are worth the livelihood of other families. I don't agree with that, which is why I buy fair trade, family farmed whenever possible, which is most of the time. If those things were not as available I would make sacrifices, yes. And I have.

If you ever need a new best friend, please accept my application. I just sit here stunned and crying when I read some of the posts. When I have said something, it's not well articulated and largely ignored. You have wrote what I haven't been able to.

[hanno]

Originally Posted by Pandora114

Dogs and cats aren't designed to eat soy based proteins.

There isn't soy in the food I feed my pets.

[shannon0218]

If there isn't soy, what is the protein source..if you're feeding vegan, soy is the best choice, that's why vegan diets are dangerous to dogs, the bioavailability is roughly 6% on soy protein, the rest needs to be processed by the body, a body that is NOT designed to process it.

[shannon0218]

Originally Posted by Mamma Mia

The point, Shannon, is that many of us have serious ethical concerns about what we feed our pets that extend toward other animals besides our pets. How many animals are tortured and slaughtered inhumanely to feed my dogs each week? How do I rate those deaths? Were those animals more valuable than the lives of my pets?

You make the argument that children can survive on lucky charms if they *have* to. If human rights were being violated and people were being killed for my child's nutritional needs, I would feed her Lucky Charms, if that was the only humane option, until I found something more humane. Meaning that until I figure out a system to feed my pets and family without supporting the factory farming industry that so inhumanely slaughters millions of animals each year I'm not going to.

I don't believe that feeding my domesticated dog that should not have even been bred the highest quality raw meats so that he can have the absolute best diet takes precedence over the larger issue, which is that millions of animals feel pain and suffer so that a bunch of rich white guys can get richer.

And if that were to shorten the lifespan of my cat a few years, or my dog a few years, at least those were happy, fun years that they spent. How many other animals were not in agony during those years? I will impose my beliefs on my dogs. Just like we all impose our beliefs on our children. I don't think it's healthy for children to drink cow's milk. Children can survive on it and even appear to thrive on it. Hell, in the 70s some docs told mothers to breastfeed with only nonfat cow's milk and those kids grew up to be *just fine* Milk increases the of diabetes, amongst other things, and it is not a natural part of the human diet. We should not be eating it. And yet I am guessing that you and others who share your opinion don't think twice about feeding your children milk and milk products. As long as it's raw, right?

So yeah, I agree that your perspective is harsh, but I also think it's one sided. You're not seeing a bigger picture that exists for those of us who love all animals and not just domesticated dogs and cats.

I think that saying feeding domesticated pets a meat diet at the expense of factory farmed animals could be compared to saying that the absolute best foods ever in my own diet are worth the livelihood of other families. I don't agree with that, which is why I buy fair trade, family farmed whenever possible, which is most of the time. If those things were not as available I would make sacrifices, yes. And I have.

See that's funny, cause I found your post quite offensive and also attacking, I guess it's only an attack if it doesnt' jive with your beliefs right??
So what about cats in the wild, should we go convert them to a veg lifestyle--or does your protection of animals allow you allow wild animals to eat a bio appropriate diet??
This isn't black and white, you act like anyone feeding meat to a dog is feeding crap food that came through a rendering plant. The meat my dogs and my family eat is not factory farmed, as a matter of fact, there is a cow staring at me through my window right now...my husband made toast and she's a bread fiend. She will indeed be used for food, but in the meantime, she lives a pretty happy little life. She will be killed humanely and will not have to suffer through kidney or liver failure.
For me, yes, frankly I find it offensive to assume care for ANY animal if you are not willing to do the best by it and for domestic cats and dogs, the best for the animal involves feeding a meat diet. I refuse to keep any living being in my home unless I am treating it with the respect it deserves, for me, providing that animal with respect also involves feeding it the best bio appropriate diet I can buy with the highest levels of bio availability.

Honestly, maybe some of you are unaware that this was moved to the pets forum and I think that since you have ZERO interest in any opinion that does not mirror your own, it's likely best that a mod be asked to move it back to the veggie haven.
I've been involved in animal activism for a LONG time, for me part of that is ensuring that animals already on this earth are cared for in an appropriate manner. A natural manner.

That many have a different opinion than you, does NOT make them wrong and it's quite possible to feed a bio appropriate diet without EVER supporting the inhumane slaughter of animals that you are so concerned with.

[shannon0218]

Originally Posted by Mamma Mia

Is it okay for me to kill your dog to feed my child? If dog was the most nutritionally apprpriate food to feed her, could I slaughter dogs and keep them in cages and prod them with sticks and feed them cornmeal? I mean, if her lifespan would theoretically be shortened by feeding her a more ethical alternative...

IMO there is a balance to be struck between all the ethical pulls we have in this world. I have not seen that my dogs' health has suffered. Rather, the younger dog does loads better on a vegetarian diet, and like the said, the older one is 16 and healthier than most 10 year old dogs, so I have no health concerns about her. Her biggest health ailment is very mild arthritis in her back legs that isn't currently causing any problems for her.

Many of us had pets before we were veg*ns, and like me, many of us didn't have a choice. Stray dogs sometimes come into your life and there is no other home to be found.

I believe that it is extremely unethical to breed or to buy dogs. I am a guardian of two dogs that didn't have a choice over whther or not they existed. Both have been bred away from any real natural instinct, one has been bred into such serious allergies that IME the only food that works for him is a vegetarian food. I am housing and loving these dogs who were brought into this world by greedy and irresponsible humans. I take care of them in a way that I hope no other animals are harmed for their existance.

I balance my ethics and morals and yet I don't foist them on others or insult them. I believe it is also unethical to keep snakes as pets. Wild animals are wild and should not be kept as pets. I believe that what you are doing is a disservice to your pets. And yet I have not jumped in to attack your way of balancing your ethics and beliefs.

Do you see what I'm getting at? This is not a black and white issue. I do not agree with your set of ethics, but I would not attack you for them. I merely live my life as I believe will leave the smallest footprint on the earth. Being veg*n and having a veg*n family is a part of that.

If that was the most biologically appropriate food for your child,yes it's ok. BUT, why does that automatically mean it would involve poking the animal with sticks and feeding it cornmeal, why could that animal not ALSO be raised humanely and ALSO be fed a biologically appropriate diet. There are other options to farming that have nothing to do with poking with sticks and feeding cornmeal. We have cattle and recently aquired chickens, all are free range, none are caged and all are fed a biologically appropriate diet--would it be easier or more profitable (no profits here, we raise only what we need) to do it in a less ethical way, of course it would, but please STOP painting all farmers with your dirty old brush, we're NOT all like that. Some of us genuinely care for the animals we house. Part of that care means ensuring that they are fed a diet PROPER to their species. I would no more feed meat to my cows than I would feed grass to my dogs. Each animal has different needs and I respect the needs of ALL of them.

[Mamma Mia]

Originally Posted by hanno

If you ever need a new best friend, please accept my application. I just sit here stunned and crying when I read some of the posts. When I have said something, it's not well articulated and largely ignored. You have wrote what I haven't been able to.

Aww! Yay! You made my night! I have best friend applications available on my myspace.

No really. PM me. Let's be internet buddies.

[defectgrrrl]

Originally Posted by Mamma Mia

The point, Shannon, is that many of us have serious ethical concerns about what we feed our pets that extend toward other animals besides our pets. How many animals are tortured and slaughtered inhumanely to feed my dogs each week? How do I rate those deaths? Were those animals more valuable than the lives of my pets?

You make the argument that children can survive on lucky charms if they *have* to. If human rights were being violated and people were being killed for my child's nutritional needs, I would feed her Lucky Charms, if that was the only humane option, until I found something more humane. Meaning that until I figure out a system to feed my pets and family without supporting the factory farming industry that so inhumanely slaughters millions of animals each year I'm not going to.

I don't believe that feeding my domesticated dog that should not have even been bred the highest quality raw meats so that he can have the absolute best diet takes precedence over the larger issue, which is that millions of animals feel pain and suffer so that a bunch of rich white guys can get richer.

And if that were to shorten the lifespan of my cat a few years, or my dog a few years, at least those were happy, fun years that they spent. How many other animals were not in agony during those years? I will impose my beliefs on my dogs. Just like we all impose our beliefs on our children. I don't think it's healthy for children to drink cow's milk. Children can survive on it and even appear to thrive on it. Hell, in the 70s some docs told mothers to breastfeed with only nonfat cow's milk and those kids grew up to be *just fine* Milk increases the of diabetes, amongst other things, and it is not a natural part of the human diet. We should not be eating it. And yet I am guessing that you and others who share your opinion don't think twice about feeding your children milk and milk products. As long as it's raw, right?

So yeah, I agree that your perspective is harsh, but I also think it's one sided. You're not seeing a bigger picture that exists for those of us who love all animals and not just domesticated dogs and cats.

I think that saying feeding domesticated pets a meat diet at the expense of factory farmed animals could be compared to saying that the absolute best foods ever in my own diet are worth the livelihood of other families. I don't agree with that, which is why I buy fair trade, family farmed whenever possible, which is most of the time. If those things were not as available I would make sacrifices, yes. And I have.

I stopped following this thread when it moved because I was certain it would be met with open hostility in another forum. Which it looks like it has. But I wanted to thank you Mamma Mia for having such reasoned and well articulated responses. I don't have the ability to do that. I just see the billions of animals tormented, abused and slaughtered and I, unfortunatly, lose not only my temper but my ability to say things that aren't hostile accusations. I'm not sure if you're AR or even veg*n but know that you're doing a lot for the movement. Even if it does feel rather discouraging to be attacked for your values.

[Mamma Mia]

Thanks. I am vegan.

[thismama]

ITA that the factory farming and killing methods that create those bags of dog food are deplorable. But I believe it is unethical to force a carnivore into a vegetarian existence.

Why not feed raw, from good sources? That seems like the only ethical solution to me, if you can't bear to feed your dog or cat mainstream pet food. That way the least suffering is inflicted on all the animals in the situation, including your pet.