or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Natural Living › Nutrition and Good Eating › The topic of Nutrition just as heated as Religion
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The topic of Nutrition just as heated as Religion - Page 8

post #141 of 248
i would also like to point out that the only reason vegans need to supplement with b12 nowadays is because most food is grown in such 'sterile' conditions the microbes that we need to consume in order to manufacture b12 in our guts no longer exist in signifigant enough quantities on our foods to keep us healthy.

it is not just vegans who can suffer from a b-12 deficiency.
post #142 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by christacular View Post
i think it's entirely understandable for people to become defensive and upset when being told the food they eat is hurting them, their children, animals, or the earth in general. people also have an emotional connection to their food - we associate the foods we eat with so many other "charged" things in our lives. it's no wonder we get upset to think that perhaps this thing that is ultimately within our control to change is hurting us.

what bothers me more about these conversations is that i, personally, have been in these debates so frequently over the last ten years, i rarely feel that i have an emotional stake in them any longer. i've done my research, i've seen the relatively long-term results of my choices, and also believe i'm in a good position to answer questions about it; yet no matter how matter-of-factly i try to talk about the issues involved in veganism with someone who is choosing to consume meat, i'm told i'm "judging" them or being rude. it's frustrating to try and stick to facts and phrase things like, "i believe..." "i feel..." and still be told i'm one of those snarky, angry vegans who won't be happy until everyone around her is converted and repentant for their meat-eating ways. that's not how i feel at all, and i certainly never want to come across that way.
Thank you for a well thought out post.

Oh, and wrt the B12 issue, I believe that we would still need animal products, each in different quantities, if not supplementing, even if the soil was in optimum shape.

I think on some issues we really do have to agree to disagree.
post #143 of 248
Quote:
My analogy only exists on this thread because GiggleBird wanted to point out to us that the logical extension of our eating practices is canabolism.
Not really. I was trying to give omnis insight into the way many vegans percieve the death of animals for consumption. I was likening it to the horror a person would feel being moved into a cannibalistic culture. I can only speak for myself, but that is the same horror I feel when I think about animals being killed. Yeah, the horror is somewhat muffled by the notion that a tiny fraction of them are treated well enough before their demise, but not by a lot.

I think the bunny analogy was pretty good. Because it illustrates that when confronted by the reality of choosing life over death, in vivid proximity, most people would choose life. I don't quite see how "cuteness" warrants more right to life, as was implied. That is pretty creepy to me (and where my kitten analogy came from before). Anyway, it's easy to focus on any flaw in an example and spiral away from the point of it, and I am trying not to do that myself. So (even though the cuteness exemption is still a confusing and perplexing point for me), maybe the example would be better served with a cow. And benefit of the doubt given that this is the only option in the moment, for whatever reason.
post #144 of 248
I had another thought wrt the OP.

People on both sides think we're "right". We don't want to be the first to back down because then we look like we've given in or like we don't have a counterpoint. Truth is we could probably point and counterpoint for eternity. Eventually, if a mod hasn't pulled the discussion first, each of us says "S%*t! Why do I continue to bang my head against a brick wall. Don't I have better things to do and a family to raise? ", and so the thread dies down, and then, when it inevitably comes up again, if we're smart we ignore it, and otherwise we go right back to that same wall.
And at that cue, I will depart, for I have much swap sewing and knitting to do, holiday helper boxes to sort and mail, and I still have to finish my dad's 50th birthday sweater before his 52nd birthday at the beginning of December.

Namaste.
post #145 of 248
Gigglebirds, I personally think that you were open-minded. You still believe in your beliefs, but your tone became a lot more respectful. IMO that's all we can expect.

Personally, since I am omni based on the fact that it seems to be the optimum diet for our species, I don't really feel the need to defend myself on an ethical basis. Ought we to kill animals? If the question is "ought", that's a toughy. Ought we to kill people? Well, yeah if it's self-defense or some other unusual circumstance. There are exceptions to every rule. I don't "like" to kill animals. Sometimes I even gag on my meat if I think too hard about where it comes from. But IMO I have as much choice as any other animal about what I eat. We do best on what is evolutionarily tested. That's what does it for me.
post #146 of 248
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HerthElde View Post
I had another thought wrt the OP.

People on both sides think we're "right". We don't want to be the first to back down because then we look like we've given in or like we don't have a counterpoint. Truth is we could probably point and counterpoint for eternity. Eventually, if a mod hasn't pulled the discussion first, each of us says "S%*t! Why do I continue to bang my head against a brick wall. Don't I have better things to do and a family to raise? ", and so the thread dies down, and then, when it inevitably comes up again, if we're smart we ignore it, and otherwise we go right back to that same wall.
And at that cue, I will depart, for I have much swap sewing and knitting to do, holiday helper boxes to sort and mail, and I still have to finish my dad's 50th birthday sweater before his 52nd birthday at the beginning of December.

Namaste.
What a good point. The reason why I compared it to Religion is because I tend myself to get overheated about food same as about my faith and I constantly end up joining the "revived" thread. Never able to ignore it and always regret it afterall.
post #147 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by pamered_mom View Post
Regardless of that person's mental capacity they are still people and you can't equate the two.
But why not?

In your opinion, what makes humans so different from other animals? It's obviously not mental capacity so it is...what, exactly? Sentience? A soul? Ability? What is the rationale for your speciesism? And what kinds of behaviors does it allow, for you? Meat eating? Vivisection? Wearing fur? Putting animals in zoos?

I am really curious to hear your--or anyone's--answer to this question.

I'll offer my own perspective. There are differences between human DNA and that of other specie. Some species seem to be more sentient than others--but then again, some humans are more sentient than others (ie, people in a coma) The same could be said of other traits (sociability, ability, etc.) As I said before, I'm not much for philosophical debates, but it's difficult for me to accept that small differences in DNA are a sound ethical basis for doing to animals many of the things we do...
post #148 of 248
I remember making the mistake of thinking that because a certain person cared so much about nutrition, eating organic, eating whole food, the connection between nutrition and health etc...and because she was a nursing mom...that she would be a person who would enjoy talking about the nutritional and health aspects of breastfeeding. I was very wrong. Despite my framing things very politely, despite her nursing longer than I did (with the baby I had at that time)....She seemed offended that I would suggest bf kids might sometimes be healthier and I walked away very confused.
post #149 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaydee View Post
But why not?

In your opinion, what makes humans so different from other animals? It's obviously not mental capacity so it is...what, exactly? Sentience? A soul? Ability? What is the rationale for your speciesism? And what kinds of behaviors does it allow, for you? Meat eating? Vivisection? Wearing fur? Putting animals in zoos?
For me it's instinct. My instinct is to protect my young, then myself, then anyone else who is human. Then other animals. I don't believe in harming animals unnecessarily, and I believe in harming animals in the most humane way possible when it is necessary. But I choose people every time. I believe that is natural.

If I am driving my car and I have a choice between hitting a child or a squirrel, I would choose the squirrel without a doubt. I've had that discussion with people who insist they couldn't choose, and I find that really disturbing.
post #150 of 248
I was talking with dh this morning about this thread. He said you know the easy thing is to be on the extreme end of things, your decisions are made for you don't have to think too much. The harder thing is finding the middle ground to work together. And then he pointed out that omnivores at least ones who are conscious of the omniness do have a lot of common ground with vegans. We both are very conscious of where our food comes from and want sustainable practices for raising veggies and fruits and for omnis animals. He thinks there should be an interfaith group that helps to promote awareness of food and where it comes from to make everyone else aware.

And then he went on a long rant about Title IX and how the point of it isn't to just have varsity sports but it should be to promote a healthy lifestyle and critics of it just view sports as entertainment. But that's another thread.
post #151 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by pamered_mom View Post
Am I the only one whose response is to the whole rabit "ethics" question - "Go ahead and do whatever you want to do with the rabbit you crazy person. I'm going in the house to call the cops and have dinner?" :
Nope- you're not!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthla View Post
First of all, why is this guy threatening to kill this bunny with a sledge hammer? Is it so that he (or she) can eat it for dinner tonight? Is it to make a point? If so, what's the point? An animal rights activist that goes around killing cute bunnies? This sounds like a mentally unstable individual!

Honestly, if somebody presented that choice to me in my backyard I'd call 911!!! What's this person going to do to make sure I eat my rice and beans after promising to? What will happen to ME if I promise to eat rice and beans but then opt for a balogna sandwich? Screw the rabbit, I'm calling the cops!!
post #152 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by newcastlemama View Post
:
I absolutely saw a lot of depression among the extreme. I lived in a macrobiotic (basically vegan, with tiny amounts of some fish at times) community for a long time and was macro for several years. i was also vegan and veg at various times (just part of my long hippie life). There used to be a running joke at how cantakerous macros were. Even fellow macros would joke about it. "Have some dairy' we'd laugh when people got too uptight. Which was frequently as I recall.

I think about all it takes to produce a lb of tofu, and then I consider how little it takes to nosh a hardboiled egg from one of my neighbor's happy hens.

Don't get me wrong, I still love tofu, and I use miso and tempeh all the time. It's not a rejection of those foods, but an embracing of the variety.

I think it's important to understand, too, that not all soil is depleted. And soil can be rejuvenated. A b12 lack isn't a given, esp if you're looking at the sort of soil that can exist in the PolyFarm mode. And the sort of soil I have in my garden. Factory farming depletes, but TF people totally reject factory farming on all levels. TF people will probably do more for soil protection and health than any group out there. Without well cared for animal droppings, there is no great soil to grow the veggies and grain.

And prior to agriculture, nomadic peoples were not vegetarian. It's nice to think people just lived on berries, but they also ate things that had eyes.
post #153 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mommay View Post
. But IMO I have as much choice as any other animal about what I eat. We do best on what is evolutionarily tested. That's what does it for me.

then you do understand that it's your CHOICE to eat that murdered animal on your plate. right? As there are perfectly suitable options that are not killed animals.
post #154 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by UUMom View Post
And prior to agriculture, nomadic peoples were not vegetarian. It's nice to think people just lived on berries, but they also ate things that had eyes.

not that I totally agree with the above BUT I have to say that humans have also been murdering each other since nomadic times.... and I don't think that should continue either.
post #155 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by edamommy View Post
then you do understand that it's your CHOICE to eat that murdered animal on your plate. right? As there are perfectly suitable options that are not killed animals.
Better to kill an animal than to committ suicide. I don't feel like I have the luxury of avoiding meat as some may. Like we have said before, there are many formerly depressed vegan moms ion the TF forum. I don't know if you have ever been a patient in a mental institution, but it is an experience that I would not like to repeat.
post #156 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by edamommy View Post
then you do understand that it's your CHOICE to eat that murdered animal on your plate. right? As there are perfectly suitable options that are not killed animals.
Now, see, I interpreted that post differently. As in, she does NOT feel that she has a choice but to follow what she perceives as a species-appropriate diet, any more than do other animals, without her or her lineage suffering from the consequences.
I think that illustrates nicely how two people can read different things (such as nutrition info) and come to different conclusions based on personal interpretation.
post #157 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by HerthElde View Post
Oh, and wrt the B12 issue, I believe that we would still need animal products, each in different quantities, if not supplementing, even if the soil was in optimum shape.

I think on some issues we really do have to agree to disagree.
i wasn't just speaking about soil condition, though that certainly plays a role. prior to the ubiquitous use of pasteurization, fermented foods offered up a plentitude of b-12.
post #158 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by christacular View Post
prior to the ubiquitous use of pasteurization, fermented foods offered up a plentitude of b-12.
Which may be analogs and not usable as B-12. The jury's still out.

But fermentation does increase B-vitamins, enzymes, and beneficial bacteria and it is a good tool for adding nutrition to your diet.
post #159 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
For me it's instinct. My instinct is to protect my young, then myself, then anyone else who is human. Then other animals. I don't believe in harming animals unnecessarily, and I believe in harming animals in the most humane way possible when it is necessary. But I choose people every time. I believe that is natural.

If I am driving my car and I have a choice between hitting a child or a squirrel, I would choose the squirrel without a doubt. I've had that discussion with people who insist they couldn't choose, and I find that really disturbing.
Of course, all sorts of behaviors could fairly be called instinctual. That doesn’t make them ethical.

I was interested more in hearing about the logic behind the statement that humans cannot be compared to other animals. I don’t believe that it is merely instinct that informs our practices towards animals (after all, compassion for animals seems instinctual as well). Social constructs play a large role, as well. And whatever we have constructed, we can analyze.

But while we are speaking of instinct, I think my instinct is to protect those I know and care about first. I love my son more than to my cats, but love my cats more than a stranger’s son. Something other than species definitions are at work in our actions.
post #160 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by UUMom View Post
TF people will probably do more for soil protection and health than any group out there. Without well cared for animal droppings, there is no great soil to grow the veggies and grain.
Veganic farming practices yield some gorgeous foods as well.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Nutrition and Good Eating
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Natural Living › Nutrition and Good Eating › The topic of Nutrition just as heated as Religion