The topic of Nutrition just as heated as Religion - Page 13

[pampered_mom]

Originally Posted by kaydee

No real argument here about the death/life continuum. I just prefer to cause the least harm to other animals. It's not the fact of killing animals that bothers me such much as the methods of killing--and the hell so many animals are put through at human hands during their lives.

The methods of killing animals and they way that they are treated in the factory/industrial farming model bother us us omni's too. I'm almost 100% positive that it has been said by at least a handfull of us at least a handfull of times on this thread.

Please don't assume that all methods of farming/slaughter/processing are the same thing. I couldn't be any less interested in purchasing animal products as a result of that system. I haven't bought meat in a traditional grocery store - much less shopped at one - in a very long time. I prefer to get mine from a local farmer b/c she raises heirloom breeds and because I know how she treats her animals.

See...common ground.

[kaydee]

Originally Posted by pamered_mom

The methods of killing animals and they way that they are treated in the factory/industrial farming model bother us us omni's too. I'm almost 100% positive that it has been said by at least a handfull of us at least a handfull of times on this thread.

Please don't assume that all methods of farming/slaughter/processing are the same thing. I couldn't be any less interested in purchasing animal products as a result of that system. I haven't bought meat in a traditional grocery store - much less shopped at one - in a very long time. I prefer to get mine from a local farmer b/c she raises heirloom breeds and because I know how she treats her animals.

See...common ground.

Yes, I know people in this thread have said that, and I genuinely am glad to hear it.

But here’s the rub –I and many animal advocates also find a good deal of non-factory-farming inhumane, as well. For example, labels like “free-range” and “cage-free” can be meaningless in terms of guaranteeing animal well-being, and organic standards don’t address humane treatment of animals. Even third-party certification programs for humane animal treatment allow some pretty ghastly things to occur (not to mention their current failure to address transport & slaughter).

Whenever I hear people say they don’t eat factory-farmed animal products, I wonder how familiar they are with the actual production of the products they do eat. Some people know a lot, have even visited farms and watched the transport & slaughter before making their purchasing decisions.

But most people, I think, rely too heavily on labeling and marketing claims, or even third-party certifications whose standards they haven’t read. I have been guilty of this myself, both with animal products in the past and with other types of products now.

So the common ground is not as easy to claim as simply saying “we’re both against factory farming.”

[OceanMomma]

Originally Posted by kaydee

But here’s the rub –I and many animal advocates also find a good deal of non-factory-farming inhumane, as well. For example, labels like “free-range” and “cage-free” can be meaningless in terms of guaranteeing animal well-being, and organic standards don’t address humane treatment of animals. Even third-party certification programs for humane animal treatment allow some pretty ghastly things to occur (not to mention their current failure to address transport & slaughter).

The information is out there about the truth about those nice "free range" or "cage free" eggs in the supermarket. You just need to want to look. But even if ppl don't, they are still way better than battery farms. The poultry industry is one big animal right's abuse however you look at it & is something I am very vocal about.

One thing I do take issue with vegetarians about I have to say is the fertilised egg thing. I am a huge advocate for roosters. I have a pet rooster who will die of old age, who I rescued from the pot when I was a veg*n. He is a lovely gentle bird. He has his own flock of girls who he takes care of who will also die of old age. I get the odd vege buy eggs of me who is totally horrified I have a rooster with them. I say if I hadn't have taken him, he would have been pot roast for sure.

I still have massive ethical problems with dairy & I do get mine from a nicey little farm but they do do some things I have problems with. For me, the only real solution will be when I can get some more land so I can have bigger stock with my chickens. Then I will know where my food has lives, what it has eaten & how it died.

[HerthElde]

Originally Posted by kaydee

Yes, I know people in this thread have said that, and I genuinely am glad to hear it.

But here’s the rub –I and many animal advocates also find a good deal of non-factory-farming inhumane, as well. For example, labels like “free-range” and “cage-free” can be meaningless in terms of guaranteeing animal well-being, and organic standards don’t address humane treatment of animals. Even third-party certification programs for humane animal treatment allow some pretty ghastly things to occur (not to mention their current failure to address transport & slaughter).

Whenever I hear people say they don’t eat factory-farmed animal products, I wonder how familiar they are with the actual production of the products they do eat. Some people know a lot, have even visited farms and watched the transport & slaughter before making their purchasing decisions.

But most people, I think, rely too heavily on labeling and marketing claims, or even third-party certifications whose standards they haven’t read. I have been guilty of this myself, both with animal products in the past and with other types of products now.

So the common ground is not as easy to claim as simply saying “we’re both against factory farming.”

Again, we're in agreement. I'm pretty sure many many of us here are acquainted with the farmers. I know I am.
But that's where education, as opposed to insult and accusation, should play a larger role. I think most people in North America still think their conventional meat comes from a farm where everything roams free, and are even more complacent when it comes to an "organic" label.
I actually think that the common ground is that simple, though - if I was uninformed about where any of my food was coming from, I'd want to know. I don't know how many discussions you read in the TF forum, but business practice discussions *do* come up from time to time.

By the way, kaydee, when I said the "insult and accusation" thing I'm not saying you were being insulting - in fact, I find your writing style to be quite diplomatic and I enjoy having these discussions with you (even though we did have a run in around a year ago - and I don't think I ever did thank you for pointing out that I was making unfair assumptions and not being clear enough in my statements).

[HerthElde]

Originally Posted by OceanMomma

I still have massive ethical problems with dairy & I do get mine from a nicey little farm but they do do some things I have problems with. For me, the only real solution will be when I can get some more land so I can have bigger stock with my chickens. Then I will know where my food has lives, what it has eaten & how it died.

You know, we should really start some kind of an "omni ethics/sustainability" thread in TF.

I really want my own land too.

[rootzdawta]

Originally Posted by OceanMomma

For me, the only real solution will be when I can get some more land so I can have bigger stock with my chickens. Then I will know where my food has lives, what it has eaten & how it died.

I have just about driven myself crazy trying to figure out the best foods to feed the family and realizing how almost impossible it is especially for a city dweller. I really look forward to having my own land as well. Otherwise . . .well, it's always questionable.

[OceanMomma]

I grew up in a big smelly smokey city that had something like 4 times the population of our whole country. I cannot tell you how much I am aware of the priviledge I have living where I do & having the choices I have. Being poor here doesn't suck. My takes on alot of this are gonna be wildly different to someone who lives in a big city. Just to be able to get out of one of those places to check out the nice little local farms is nigh on impossible. Hence why I stuck to beans & rice in those days!

[pampered_mom]

Originally Posted by kaydee

But here’s the rub –I and many animal advocates also find a good deal of non-factory-farming inhumane, as well. For example, labels like “free-range” and “cage-free” can be meaningless in terms of guaranteeing animal well-being, and organic standards don’t address humane treatment of animals. Even third-party certification programs for humane animal treatment allow some pretty ghastly things to occur (not to mention their current failure to address transport & slaughter).

Again, another issue that we agree on. I don't trust labels on products in a store one bit! At least not until there becomes some way to ensure that there will be in fact some truth in that labeling required. And even the I'd be very likely to be very skeptical. You don't have to look very far to find proof that those labels aren't worth the paper they're printed on - especially in the case of the organic label since the USDA sees it as nothing more than a marketing tool it's not too hard for the standards to be erroded. Another good example is the labels you find on items in places like Whole Foods - just read Michael Pollan's latest book for more info on that one!

That's the reason why I researched the farms that I purchase from very carefully and have gotten to know the farmers personally. When we last went to pick up our raw milk my son even got a guided tour of the animals by the farmer's granddaughter - which was quite amusing given the candid nature of most children.

But for me it's more than an issue of treatment of animals - we buy this way because it's our protest against the harsh treatment of farmers in the industrial agricultural system as well! I much prefer to go w/out the middleman/woman.

Originally Posted by kaydee

So the common ground is not as easy to claim as simply saying “we’re both against factory farming.”

When it comes to the mindful omnis here it is that simple.

Originally Posted by HerthElde

But that's where education, as opposed to insult and accusation, should play a larger role. I think most people in North America still think their conventional meat comes from a farm where everything roams free, and are even more complacent when it comes to an "organic" label.
I actually think that the common ground is that simple, though - if I was uninformed about where any of my food was coming from, I'd want to know. I don't know how many discussions you read in the TF forum, but business practice discussions *do* come up from time to time.

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