the absurdity of attempting a "natural birth" in a hospital setting - Page 7

[torio]

Emilie, Thanks for asking--we're due in June, just heard the heartbeat last week. xo

[Cigilteach]

: : : :

I am sorry if I offended by what I said about luck. I also should not have made a personal attack.

When I found this homebirth forum I though oh yes finally a place for me. A place where I can feel safe. I can talk about my homebirth plans without judgment. A place I won't have to hear about hospitals whether it be excuses for them, exceptions to the rule, the necessity of them, whatever... I thought this was a homebirth forum.

Instead there is the same old judgment. I thought perhaps things like homebirths are great and all but if only more women did what I did, they too could have had a satisfying hospital birth wouldn't have a place here. That's my problem I guess. I just didn't expect to have to hear that here.

There is the same old condescension - the little reminders that hospitals are necessary sometimes. Tell me, what mother forgets this? Can homebirth/UC ever be discussed without someone thinking that they alone are aware that babies are involved and need to remind those renegade "alternative" birthers to remember not to disregard the safety of their baby. I don't know a single mother who would not go to the hospital if it was necessary no matter what previously happened to her in such a place. Please can someone tell me, what is the statement below doing here???

and I know women IRL who have been bullyed and threathed too -- sad but ture -- but no reason to throw th baby out with the bath water ]

I don't know why was surprised to see this actually, it is always resorted to.

Obviously, this is not a safe place for me. I cannot bear to hear this kind of statement thrown out yet again, let alone on a homebirth forum.

J

[~pi]

Originally Posted by gemelos

if you truly want a natural, invervention-free birth and you do not risk out of homebirth, then homebirth is the best option.

I totally agree with this. And if that's the only point of the thread, then I am reading it wrong. My apologies.

[doctorjen]

For those of you reading the title of this thread and finding offense, please read again what the OP had to say - because I think she described her own position very well. What she said (and forgive me wednesday if I put words in your mouth) is that it is unrealistic and frankly a little silly to go to the hospital to buy something they aren't selling. The "absurd" she used seemed to come from her own reflection that she was misguided in her original birth and thought that she could get out of the setting she was in what she wanted - but the norm for that setting was something else. Not that birthing in a hospital - for absolute necessity or any other reason is absurd - but that not realizing the forces against getting that unintervened natural birth are so complex and difficult to compete with is absurd.

As someone who has birthed 3 babies in hospitals - and who attends 65-75 hospital births a year, I have not been the least offended by the title, or the content of this thread in regards to the homebirthers and hoping to be homebirthers discussing how they were lead to realize that birthing at home means less fighting for what you want. After all, at home, you are clearly the boss and whoever you've invited to your birth is employed by you. While there are certainly homebirth midwives who don't do what you want, or who are even potentially harmful, the balance of power is different in your own home.

I just had to laugh at those of you who couldn't communicate during transition. I am exactly like this myself. I just cannot talk. I can think so clearly, and every sense seems to be heightened, but I can't get it out of my mouth. As a result, even as an attending physician myself, birthing my 4th baby in my own hospital with a personal friend as an attendant, I was unable to stand up for myself and have my birth go the way I wanted. And that was even with my dh who is very experienced now in helping me birth and very vocal at defending me trying his best to help me. I let my OB break my water against my will, yell at me to push (when the babe was already crowning and I was trying to back off and stretch) and I ending up birthing in bed with my legs on foot pedals. And the OB managed to clamp the cord before I recovered my voice, while my dh was hugging me in joy that our baby was born. All fairly minor things in the scheme of things - but it reinforced for me as an attendant how easy it is to influence a woman in labor, if even I could be overcome by relatively well-meaning folks. The worst of this birth was the palpable anxiety and fear in the room as my precious daughter was born - the OB who caught her was scared to death of normal birth, and nothing I could do as a client could take that away.

For those of you who had beautiful hospital births - be pleased and proud of your experience. No one suggests it didn't happen or wasn't amazing and wonderful and everything it should be. I have attended some amazingly beautiful, intense, intimate, and unintervened births myself and am proud to continue to do so - and when it is not possible, I am proud to attend births that leave women in control and supported regardless of their medical needs.

For those of you who couldn't fight off the system, and drew the short straw when it comes to providers, nurses, hospital policies and personalities - continue to speak out about what is wrong with these situations and work to make it better - by voting with your feet by homebirthing, or by working hard to make yourself a powerful force to reckon with from within the system.

and Cigilteach - please don't go away. There is a place here for you, and many, many folks who understand that what happened to you was horrible and unnecessary, and not unfortunately an isolated case. I wish you an empowering healing path here.

[gemasita]

Hmm...I love the McDonald's analogy but I actually THOUGHT that it was going to go something like, "Trying for a natural birth in a hospital is like going to McDonald's and ordering a TV." Because for me, they are THAT incompatible!

I think that needing to be in the hospital because of a medical condition is a whole other thing.

I think that choosing to be in the hospital is just a STRANGE concept TO ME. I've never seen the connection.

During labor...a woman should be completely comfortable with her surroundings...someplace that she is really used to would be ideal...she should be able to move freely, use props (bed, chair, water), be in a comfortable environment (quiet, dark, whatever), be able to eat and drink or go for a walk, should have people around her that she really trusts and loves....so.....go to a hospital? Where most people are incredibly UNcomfortable, the room doesn't have a whole lot in the way of props, she may not be able to eat or drink, and have strangers all around her, it's loud, bright, and there are lots of distractions. I've just never made the connection between those two things...natural birth and hospital.

Not that it can't be done but why do it if you don't HAVE to. If you HAVE to, then you try and stack the deck in your favor and hope you also have some luck.

I think we may underestimate how much being in a hospital influences our labor and could, IN ITSELF, be why many women "fail to progress." We act like prey and we "flee" mentally and physically when we perceive a threat (something uncomfortable).

As a pp mentioned, a birth plan seems like such a strange concept. You have to negotiate to hold your own child? I don't remember having a "sex plan" the first time I had sex so that I can try to get at least some of the things I want. I happened to be with someone I trusted in a place I felt completely comfortable. Not a situation where I imagine having to negotiate for ANYTHING. Birth, sex, marriage, pooping...they are all pretty intimate to me.

[TanyaS]

Originally Posted by rmzbm

Where-oh-where was MDC 9-ish yrs. ago? Or, where was I?

You were the same place I was when I needed MDC six years ago.

[ericswifey27]

Originally Posted by Aimee21972

this is NOT what I am saying. I am saying the decision can not be one-sided, no matter what that ONE SIDE is. I am saying that bieth is a join adventure and BOTH sides need to be at ease for it to go well.

The father's stress or anxiety can effect a birthing situation as much as the mom's stress and anxiety. and conflict -- spoken r nt -- between the parents can de-rail a birth faster than any other stresser.

No I am not saying the father gets to call it -- but at the same time, i am saying the mom doesn't either. I am saying we have to respect our partner's feelings, worries, fears and thoughts ont he matter and not dictate to him as if he were another child in the house.



I would not say a hosptial birth got jlucky, any more than a home birth got lucky. ANy mom with a goof birth worked hard to accomplish it.



I am saying that a woman is responible for what happens to her -- at home or int eh hsoptial. I am saying a woman has to be educated and know what to expect, and know what she does and does not want -- home or hosptial. I am saying that in too many cases (not all, or course, generalizations at rarely true) the mom didn't know what was going to happne, then got there and didn't like it, well she wasn't prepared for it.

example -- a freind just had her baby last month,. hosptial birth. befoe she went to the hosptial to birth -- the last month before deliever -- I was telling her about Theo's birth and she kept sayig things like :"Oh I didn't know they'd do that" or "oh why did you ask them not to do X I didn't even realize they would"............good freind....happy with ehr own birth .... but had she been unhappy with teh level of SOP intervention, yes it would have been her fault for not finding out and not establishing her own plan (yes plans fail -- mine did -- but you gotta have one to start with). no different than a mom who has a home mid-wife and then is surprised not to be offered pain killers -- you gotta research your choice, know what to expect, know what you want and don't want.

So it is not the vistims fault when they are a victim (and I know women IRL who have been bullyed and threathed too -- sad but ture -- but no reason to throw th baby out with the bath water)....but not everyone who has a poor birth (home, hospital, birth center) is the victim and I think we be-little the true victims out there byu lumping a lot of people in with them that are not truely victimes. because that not only doesn't help the victimes -- it doesn't allow for the system to be corrected.

I take it this was your friend's first hospital birth? I'll say it again. There is no way of adequately preparing for the unknown. You can't prepare for what you don't know you have to prepare for. How sad that it is "her fault" ... Really sad...

No matter how differently you try to say it, you are blaming the victim.
Recognize it, accept it, change it.

[rootzdawta]

I guess everything's already been said but I want to say my piece . . .

I gave birth in a hospital with a CNM and it was an okay experience. I didn't get any pain meds but I still had to have an IV because I was GBS+. I was all set with my research and all my information to fight the the abx but when I got there, I was in no position to be fighting. All I could do was deal with the contractions. Thank God the IV fell out while I was laboring or they would have fed me pitocin right through it and in my exhausted state I wouldn't have been in any position to say no. All I kept thinking while laboring was why were the lights so bright, why was there so much noise, why did the nurses keep changing and I was so keenly aware that I was naked. I hated that they kep penetrating my birthing world to monitor the baby--even while I was in the birth pool. Had I been home, well, I would have been home. Around my familiar things and people I am comfortable with. I would have been able to recover in my own bed. So no, birthing in the hospital was no a horrible experience. But I want it to feel right next time. I don't want to have to go in like Commando Jane trying to deflect and refuse things and trying to figure out what is necessary and what's not. I want to birth in peace. I want my baby to come into the world peacefully and to already be where he/she belongs and can always count on--home.

[Emilie]

It was my first baby.
We ended up calling the lc at home after they told me they had to give ds a bottle of sugar water before I could see him again. He was brought after that and we did not let them have him back....

I think my experience attests to what many mothers birthing in a hospital feel- that they have no power- they are not in charge-this is not their territory.
Which is a good reason to STAY HOME!

Originally Posted by moonfirefaery

Emilie, I would have walked right into that nursery and took my baby!

My experience was overall good, but I was uneducated and didn't know the potential harm that was being done. I knew it was wrong for them to be rude and yell at me when I was pushing, but there was nothing I could do. They wouldn't let me sleep with him in my bed, which bothered me but... if they had taken him to the nursery and not even let me look at him, I would have been fuming.

[MamaSong]

When I saw the OP I was so excited - finally someone BRAVE enough to try a thread on the HOMEBIRTH forum that's actually talking passionately about the belief that homebirth is the best option for low risk births. Ha! Of course it turned into hurt feelings, apologies, word picking, etc. Where is the forum where we can discuss homebirth passionately w/o having to worry about hurting the feelings of women who choose hospital birth?

[Emilie]

Yup. But it is a step in the right direction I think.
I feel very protective of my homebirth forum and MDC. If it wasn't for the mamas on here I may not have had my dd at home!

[moonfirefaery]

ITA. We should be allowed to be passionate here, just as nursing mamas are passionate in the breastfeeding forum. I happen to think homebirth is often the best choice even for high risk patients (though I do agree the hospital does have a time and place).

Emilie, your experience, my experience, these are the reasons I will not birth in a hospital. I feel quite certain that I could stand up for myself, prevent unnecessary intervention, keep my baby close to me. I would be like a lioness this time, protecting my young, rather than doing as I was told like a cooperative patient as I did last time. I would take control in the delivery room and oversee the care of my child at any cost. However, I don't WANT to have to fight just to have my wishes heeded and my basic rights respected. Why would I want all of that stress when I could just have a peaceful birth at home without any power struggles with anyone other than my husband over who gets to catch the baby?

[huggerwocky]

Originally Posted by MamaSong

When I saw the OP I was so excited - finally someone BRAVE enough to try a thread on the HOMEBIRTH forum that's actually talking passionately about the belief that homebirth is the best option for low risk births. Ha! Of course it turned into hurt feelings, apologies, word picking, etc. Where is the forum where we can discuss homebirth passionately w/o having to worry about hurting the feelings of women who choose hospital birth?

Thanks for saying that.

[Arwyn]

We have a twofold goal at MDC - we care about content (Mothering is a strong supporter and promoter of natural, normal birth - regardless of location - and homebirth and midwives), but we also care about delivery ("gentle" isn't just something that should be reserved for discipline). Passion is more than welcome - care about language while expressing that passion is also necessary. And I believe the two are entirely compatible, and a balance of both is a worthy goal to strive for.

We do not need to and ought not attack hospital births or the individuals who birth there in our promotion of homebirth, nor even in our criticisms of the hospital system. Do we have to pretend they're equal options? No. But we must take care to direct our energies and our language to the system that so often fails women and motherbabies, to the policies and practices that make hospitals so counter to the way birth should be, and we must not make blanket statements, or we will be corrected, and our message will get lost, ignored because "we obviously don't know what we're talking about".

For most of us, can a hospital ever be "as good as home"? Of course not. For those of us here who have pursued or are interested in homebirth, a hospital will never, even at its best, be more than a 2nd or 3rd choice. It cannot be as good as home, no matter how low the intervention rates get, because it is not our home.

And for the record, yes, the fine line between passion and attack is walked on the Breastfeeding boards, and sometimes we do falter, and when that happens, things can get interesting, just as they do here. This same message is reiterated in Lactivism all the time - we can and must argue against the system and the practices that damage the motherbaby WITHOUT attacking or dismissing those individuals who, by ignorance or lack of support or difficult choice or medical need, use formula.

With this, I'm going to close this thread, because I feel we have discussed this topic as thoroughly as we're going to in this particular thread.