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the absurdity of attempting a "natural birth" in a hospital setting - Page 4

post #61 of 134
I really loved your post DrJen. Thank you for being so honest and helpful.

That is the thing I think many HB moms are saying..... It is not that Dr.s are BAD- it is that they are NOT trained in natural birth. Nor are the nurses and other support staff.
HB midwives are( or should be!!!) and that is why many of us feel that birthing at home is the best way to INSURE that a natural birth with no interventions will happen. We feel that natural birth - leaving the woman and her body and her baby to do the work- is the safest route.
Many also believe that the mere fact of leaving the home or comfortable setting - is an intervention in itself.
post #62 of 134
they occur.

Case in point.
A pg friend went to an OB. When she spoke to the OB about her weight gain( within normal range- she was very concerned about getting heavy during pg) the doctor said- We will do a ultrasound at 38 weeks and if the baby is to big we will just schedule a C/S.

She was not more than 30 weeks pg at the time. He did not take into account her emotional, mental or even bother to look at her rate of gain!

She went on to have a 9 1/2 lb baby at HOME.

My point is- it was her first baby- if she had delivered at the hospital- would they have deemed the baby to big and scheduled a C/S?

It is hard to compare because there was just ONE birth. No two births are alike. We will never know what that said doctor would have done at 38 weeks had she continued under his care and chose a hospital birth.... but we do get an idea- right?

I know this is just one example- out of many.
post #63 of 134
Well, ideal for me is not having to demand that my needs and desires must be met. Ideal for me is not having to discuss protocol on this and that point and sign waivers against medical advice. Ideal for me is not having to deal with people I hardly know who have different ideas than me about what is best for me. Ideal is not an environment in which I am annoyed, distracted, and self-conscious. Ideal for me is not fluorescent lights, narrow beds, public hospital hallways as the only alternative to a small impersonal room, and machinery. Ideal for me is not anything -- clinical, uncomfortable, unfamiliar -- that would interfere with the hormonal process. I'd be grateful for the hospital if I needed it, but that doesn't change the fact that the hospital environment is much less desirable in general than the home environment, and that the feel and process of the birth would be different depending on where I was.

And wow, how insulting and naive to assert that if only every woman was only well educated enough and firm enough she could avoid all unnecessary interventions. Even if you could guarantee that everyone do your exact bidding -- which you can't -- there is still the psychological effect of being in a clinical environment to contend with, and for many women that does affect the hormonal process to an extent that it creates -- artificially -- the "need" for interventions.

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if he is worries, stressed, upset, anxious, or just not 100% with it -- that will effect both of you at teh birth ... and may trunt he hb into something you don't want either.
So as long as he's happy, she'll be happy too and have a great birth. Is that it? Great double standard there. Why aren't we saying to him, "If she is worried, stressed, upset, anxious, or just not 100% with it -- that will effect the birth adversely. Is that something you want to risk?"

In fact, her need to be comfortable with the choice trumps her husband's because it is her body it is happening in. If he's stressed, he can just leave. Problem solved, negative energy gone. If she's stressed, she can't leave. She has to be there for the birth. So realistically, whose emotional state is more important here?
post #64 of 134
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Originally Posted by Aimee21972 View Post
I am not blameing the victim........Aimee
You know what bothers me? You say you are not blaming the victim and yet you have stated repeatedly that it is the woman's fault for what happens to her in a hospital.

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Originally Posted by Aimee21972 View Post

A lot of the bad stuff is lack of parental education, self-advocay, or lack of parental backbone. I was always polite, but i was the momma.

Aimee
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Originally Posted by Aimee21972 View Post

I am sayig a lot of wemon don't get educated, don't do the research, and go iwht the flow (well the doc said this and he must know, be right) -- then afterwards don't like the outcome and say "I didn't know" it is our responiblity as women and moms to KNOW -- to seek it out before hand..................
Aimee
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Originally Posted by Aimee21972 View Post
just like woman who claim the want to BF, then stop at sore nipples cuz they didn't know. they are paying lip service to something (desire to bf, desire for a nb) without doing the lag work and the prep work, they are setting themselves up to fail and it is their fault.
Aimee
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Originally Posted by Aimee21972 View Post
And I spent NONE of my labor time fighting -- I did my work before hand, had my support people there, and had no conflicts. (we also worked hard to find a provider who was like minded).
Aimee
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Originally Posted by Aimee21972 View Post
My point is a hosptial birth can be great too -- if you do your homework and are prepared (not if you just walk in and don't know what to expect, or think that it will be one way without taking measures to make it that way)
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Originally Posted by Aimee21972 View Post

and this is when you kindly the first time, then with more force, ask for them to be replaced. you are the consumer -- and can always go up the chain of cammand.

Aimee

If you feel most comfortable laboring in a hospital, then that is what you should do. No one is telling you otherwise. Yet you have written off many women's traumatic hospital births as the fault of the mom, when the fault lies with the system. While many mamas are able to birth successfully in a hospital, many are not. That is a failure in the hospital system, not a failure with the mama. You seem to think if I had just prepared enough, my hospital birth would have been different. The truth is nothing could have prepared me for what happened - I planned my birth based on the knowledge I had at the time. As much as I read and prepared, I could not get into the doctors' and nurses' /midwifes' heads and know how I was going to be treated. When I went in, I had no reason to distrust anyone. I thought I was going to go in with my birth plan, it would be honored, because I was the one having the baby, I would do what women have done since the beginning of time, and have a normal vaginal delivery. What I got instead was total disregard for my wishes. But somehow that is my fault?:

What I now realize is that if at all possible, I should not birth in a hospital. Others, yes. Some will prefer hospital birth and thrive in a hospital atmosphere. Others may not exactly thrive, but will manage to have a pleasant enough birth. Me, no. I also know there are many others like me who were absolutely traumatized yet could have had a pleasant first birth experience if they had not been in the typical hospital atmosphere. For some mamas, when they are fearful, when their wishes are being ignored, when they are given drugs, when there is no encouragement, it is just to much for their bodies. This is what happened to me. I physiologically shut down, lo and behold, "failure to progress" ending in a csection. I hope that mamas will read this and consider homebirth as an option. If someone had shared with me what I now know, I would have been forever grateful for that option.
post #65 of 134
Thread Starter 
Quote:
What I'm saying is that it's not always even that hospital providers have the intent to go against what you want, but when you are asking folks to practice outside their experience and comfort, even if they want to be helpful they may not be able to.
I think drjen really said it all here. That's really the point of this thread and the analogy about asking for something that's not on the menu. Not at all to put anyone down for having a hospital birth. Just explaining for me why it doesn't feel right to go into a situation and expect the professionals involved to go against everything they normally do, to accommodate my wishes.
post #66 of 134
Thread Starter 
Maybe the McDonald's reference is kind of a loaded analogy. Like I am saying birthing at a hospital instead of at home is equivalent to eating at McD's instead of healthy food. Which is not what I meant at all. Here's a better analogy:

My son is currently on a very restricted diet as we try to pinpoint some food sensitivities. He is currently not eating wheat, dairy, corn, soy, or eggs. Thanksgiving is coming up and most foods we would typically prepare will be okay for him to eat. But what about pie? Typically a pie, especially a commercially bought one, would contain wheat, dairy, eggs, and corn (cornstarch is in most baking powder). We have a great bakery just a few blocks away. Maybe I could go to them and ask them to prepare a special pie just for my son, with none of the forbidden ingredients. Assuming they would even try to accommodate that, I still wonder how the pie would turn out. Do the bakers there have time to research how the various wheat flour substitutes turn out for different kinds of baking? Would they know to add a little xanthan gum in the recipe to replace the elasticity of wheat gluten that does not exist in substitute grain flours? Would they know that coconut butter is an excellent substitute for regular butter? Would they even have any xanthan gum or coconut butter on hand, or know where to get some quickly? Do they have any cornstarch-free baking powder, or even realize that would be a concern?

No--if I want the pie made this way, I really need to make it myself at home. Not expect people who specialize in a particular kind of product to be able to change gears and do something completely different for me.
post #67 of 134
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Originally Posted by Aimee21972 View Post
This is DH's baby too, and you are his wife, he deserves to be confortable with the event too. he should have his fears, thoughts, wants and concerns respected too.

if he is worries, stressed, upset, anxious, or just not 100% with it --
then he should be prepared to leave, but may find pools of strength and confidence that he would have never expected.
post #68 of 134
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Originally Posted by PGNPORTLAND View Post
But if someone has a good/great experience with their hospital - I would never say, "well, I guess you got lucky".
I would. Or rather, I'll say "Did you luck out in your nurses or did you have to fight for a good birth?" I think that good hospital staff deserve recognition.
post #69 of 134
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So as long as he's happy, she'll be happy too and have a great birth. Is that it? Great double standard there. Why aren't we saying to him, "If she is worried, stressed, upset, anxious, or just not 100% with it -- that will effect the birth adversely. Is that something you want to risk?"
this is NOT what I am saying. I am saying the decision can not be one-sided, no matter what that ONE SIDE is. I am saying that bieth is a join adventure and BOTH sides need to be at ease for it to go well.

The father's stress or anxiety can effect a birthing situation as much as the mom's stress and anxiety. and conflict -- spoken r nt -- between the parents can de-rail a birth faster than any other stresser.

No I am not saying the father gets to call it -- but at the same time, i am saying the mom doesn't either. I am saying we have to respect our partner's feelings, worries, fears and thoughts ont he matter and not dictate to him as if he were another child in the house.

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But if someone has a good/great experience with their hospital - I would never say, "well, I guess you got lucky".
I would not say a hosptial birth got jlucky, any more than a home birth got lucky. ANy mom with a goof birth worked hard to accomplish it.

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You know what bothers me? You say you are not blaming the victim and yet you have stated repeatedly that it is the woman's fault for what happens to her in a hospital.
I am saying that a woman is responible for what happens to her -- at home or int eh hsoptial. I am saying a woman has to be educated and know what to expect, and know what she does and does not want -- home or hosptial. I am saying that in too many cases (not all, or course, generalizations at rarely true) the mom didn't know what was going to happne, then got there and didn't like it, well she wasn't prepared for it.

example -- a freind just had her baby last month,. hosptial birth. befoe she went to the hosptial to birth -- the last month before deliever -- I was telling her about Theo's birth and she kept sayig things like :"Oh I didn't know they'd do that" or "oh why did you ask them not to do X I didn't even realize they would"............good freind....happy with ehr own birth .... but had she been unhappy with teh level of SOP intervention, yes it would have been her fault for not finding out and not establishing her own plan (yes plans fail -- mine did -- but you gotta have one to start with). no different than a mom who has a home mid-wife and then is surprised not to be offered pain killers -- you gotta research your choice, know what to expect, know what you want and don't want.

So it is not the vistims fault when they are a victim (and I know women IRL who have been bullyed and threathed too -- sad but ture -- but no reason to throw th baby out with the bath water)....but not everyone who has a poor birth (home, hospital, birth center) is the victim and I think we be-little the true victims out there byu lumping a lot of people in with them that are not truely victimes. because that not only doesn't help the victimes -- it doesn't allow for the system to be corrected.
post #70 of 134
[
No I am not saying the father gets to call it -- but at the same time, i am saying the mom doesn't either. I am saying we have to respect our partner's feelings, worries, fears and thoughts ont he matter and not dictate to him as if he were another child in the house.


I think this would be a good thread to discuss further.
Many of us started with husbands who were not on board. Some are now HUGE homebirth supporters. I did not talk to my husband as if he were a child. I talked to him honestly about my wants for OUR birth of OUR child. And he was kind enough to me to look into it and LISTEN. Since I am the woman and the resident expert on birth in our home.
Fears for a husband are one thing- everyone has fears- espeically when choosing to do something a bit "outside the box" but is he willing to research along side of you- or does he say- NO WAY without giving the idea some thought and research.
post #71 of 134
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yes you have to be your own advacte, do your reseach and have a back bone and a smile .. but not all hospitals are awful (yes I know some are)
That is the MAIN reason I wanted a homebirth. I didn't want to be my own advocate, have a backbone, be prepared to fight, etc. I wanted to be in an environment that was peacecul and no one was telling me what to do. That was the best part of my homebirth, not having to fight for what I did and did not want.
post #72 of 134
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Not one thing was done without my consent.
Most of what is done in the hospitals is done with the patient's consent; however, it usually is not informed consent, as they rarely give teh patient all the information they need to make a truly educated decision. I consented to my amniotomy, because I wasn't told that it would make my contractions so much more stronger and eliminate the cushion protecting my child's head from the full force of the contractions. I consented to my epidural, because no one helped me deal with the pain in other ways or told me of the negative consequences such as slowed labor and the need for pitocin. I consented to that, because no one told me about the bad results of that. I consented to periodic vaginal checks, but no one told me that they increased the risk of infection and were unnecessary. I consented to fetal monitoring, though no one explained to me that it increased my chance of being told I needed a C-section.

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both babies were in NICU for 7+ weeks and neither was breathing at birth. Thus a home birth, even with teh best care and 911 service, would have at elast resulted in brain damage if not death.
Again, not necessarily true. I'm not saying either should have been born at home, just debating whether or not they'd have died or been brain damaged from being born at home. Midwives can bring oxygen tanks to the house where the woman is delivering, and either of these babies could have been given oxygen and then transferred to the NICU if the midwife felt it was necessary.

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hospital births have their place (for thoese like me who choose them) and are also a real need for some (my sister and freind).
I agree with this. I just disagree that they are needed for most 'high risk' births. High risk usually just means 'variation of normal,' as another person so accurately stated.

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If no one complains, or bucks the system -- the system marches on.
I'm going to buck the system by birthing at home unassisted.

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however our interventions were not un-necessary
Most women who undergo interventions are made to believe by the doctor or hospital that they were necessary. While I do agree with you that the oxygen & NICU care were probably necessary, I'd be curious as to what other interventions you are talking about and why you'd think they are necessary. The majority of hospital interventions like pitocin, amniotomy, and epidurals are unnecessary, and C-sections are actually necessary maybe 50% of the time they are used.

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I just am bothered byut eh assumption that my birth would have "of course" been better at home.
I am not suggesting that. It would have been different at home, but I don't presume to know your exact situation or what would have been best for you.

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thgus being at home (or a birth center) would not have "fixed it" and when I grievee for the issues in my first birth
Any unnecessary intervention you had at the hospital would probably not have taken place at home. The keyword there is unnecessary.

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i do not think it should be put up on a pedistal and made while and idealized while the hosptial is vilified (sp?) as always eveil.
No one has vilified the hospital as always evil, just stated that it's not necessary for every or even most births, even high risk ones nor is it often supportive of truly natural birth.

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And wow, how insulting and naive to assert that if only every woman was only well educated enough and firm enough she could avoid all unnecessary interventions. Even if you could guarantee that everyone do your exact bidding -- which you can't -- there is still the psychological effect of being in a clinical environment to contend with, and for many women that does affect the hormonal process to an extent that it creates -- artificially -- the "need" for interventions.
Exactly. Even if you are educated doctors and nurses may pressure or coerce you. The lack of support, the "you can have an epi if you truly want it," can make it so hard to fight and so easy to give in. Even the stress of the environment can affect labor.

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I'll say "Did you luck out in your nurses or did you have to fight for a good birth?" I think that good hospital staff deserve recognition.
Well, it good be that they did their homework and made sure to pick attendants with whom they were comfortable

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I am saying that bieth is a join adventure and BOTH sides need to be at ease for it to go well.
So does that mean if a father wants a hospital birth, and the mother wants a homebirth, the mother should go to the hospital just to put at ease the father--who will not have to endure the labor, whose body is NOT hosting the infant, etc? I really think the mother's stress & anxiety will have a LOT more effect on the birth and baby, considering she is the one doing the work and growing the baby in her womb.

What about if the woman is single? Or if her partner isn't the baby's father?

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i am saying the mom doesn't either
She's the one who has to go through the contractions, not the father. She's the one whose stress levels will affect the baby, not the father. Sure, she should try to make her partner as comfortable with the choice as possible, but when it comes down to it, she needs to do what she feels is right. It's women that have the birthing instinct, not men, being that we are the ones who do it. For conception you need a man and a woman. For a birth you need only a woman. That's not to say the man isn't important, that his prescense will not have a profound effect on the birth, or that he shouldn't be a part of the experience--only that a woman can birth alone just fine, without a man, and therefore she is the one whose comfort is of most importance. She is the key player, her and the baby. The father can try to help by supporting her, rubbing her back, catching the child, but he can't deliver the child--only she can.

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ANy mom with a goof birth worked hard to accomplish it.
I know plenty of people who had a homebirth who don't feel they worked hard at all; they think it was quite easy. This is why I want one, so I can have a good birth without having to fight and work hard for it. I'm not saying that labor isn't work, just that it doesn't have to be difficult or stressful.
post #73 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by gemelos View Post
That is the MAIN reason I wanted a homebirth. I didn't want to be my own advocate, have a backbone, be prepared to fight, etc. I wanted to be in an environment that was peacecul and no one was telling me what to do. That was the best part of my homebirth, not having to fight for what I did and did not want.
Exactly. I am usually a GREAT advocate for myself in the hospital. I have a ton of backbone. In my last non-birthing hospital stay I had the whole staff running scared, nurses coming in to give me special TLC, detailed explanations of almost everything that was done to me (except from one resident whose English wasn't too good, but he tried), and the dietary department sending up baskets of candy to apologize for screwing up my orders several times in a row. I am an ass-kicking hospital patient.... Except, it turns out, when I am in transition and completely lose my power of speech. Not only could I not say "yes" or "no," I could not say anything at all except "Mmmmmmm." How can I use a series of "Mmmmmmms" to indicate "No, don't break down the bed" or something like that?
post #74 of 134
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Not only could I not say "yes" or "no," I could not say anything at all except "Mmmmmmm." How can I use a series of "Mmmmmmms" to indicate "No, don't break down the bed" or something like that?
That's me except I was going "Ahhhhhhhhhh." :
post #75 of 134
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Originally Posted by lolar2 View Post
How can I use a series of "Mmmmmmms" to indicate "No, don't break down the bed" or something like that?
Morse?
post #76 of 134

very confused...

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(and I know women IRL who have been bullyed and threathed too -- sad but ture -- but no reason to throw th baby out with the bath water)
Please, I really need to know exactly what you meant by this statement. Is that what it all boils down to for you? Are you saying "just be happy you had a healthy baby and quit complaining" ? What person on this thread has "thrown the baby out with the bath water?" Is it that we got what we deserve as you continue to argue, and are harming our children by seeking to heal? Are you implying that the babies are suffering at OUR hands because we are honestly discussing what happened to us? Would you be so kind as to clear up the above statement, because I am sure you didn't mean to say that we've disregarded our babies in our pain.

And here's the thing, bad treatment is not rare at all. If you don't want to see it because you need to think that the hospital is mostly safe haven where mothers and babies are rescued and abusive treatment is rare and when it occurs it is the fault of "the consumer" who didn't smile enough or tack up enough witty signs, then don't. Stay in your bubble. But don't say that it is rare when you have no idea. There are far too many stories out there and more every single day. You either HAVEN'T DONE YOUR RESEARCH and are therefore unprepared to make the statements you are making or you do not wish to see and therefore do not wish to learn. Discounting the reality of countless others, saying it is only a few exceptions in the face of so much to the contrary and then blaming the laboring women is incredibly thoughless, condescending, irresponsible and damaging. YOU are part of what's wrong with the system you claim you are changing for the sake of your daughters. You play right into it.

If you really want to be informed, perhaps look outside your own story, your own circle. Do a bit more reading. Start a watchdog group in your area to help evaluate just how women are treated in labor and why. Try to really see instead of taking a high horse and blaming the women because you happened to get lucky and can't handle reality.

J
post #77 of 134
I had a great hospital birth, even though I was prepared for a huge fight before going in. I had an AWESOME nurse who seemed to know exactly what I wanted even though I didn't have time to give anyone my birth plan. My OBGYN was great and very respectful of my wishes. I birthed my way, had sts contact immediately, APGAR was done on my chest, etc. They listened to me, and I didn't have to have a backbone or a fight.

Homebirth doesn't appeal to me, even after having been stuck in a lousy hospital for two days. Blood still scares me. The idea of homebirth just isn't my thing. A freestanding birth center with a midwife would be great, but my insurance doesn't cover it and the only FSBC around here has a very poor reputation. I'll likely have a hospital birth for any future children as well,m and I'm fine with that.

A good hospital birth CAN and DOES happen. I get that it's not for everyone, and that's fine - homebirth isn't for everyone, either, you know?
post #78 of 134
I agree with most of what you just said, but I did have a question... did you not see blood in the hospital? because I did.
post #79 of 134
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Originally Posted by _betsy_ View Post
A good hospital birth CAN and DOES happen. I get that it's not for everyone, and that's fine - homebirth isn't for everyone, either, you know?
I keep seeing statements like this and they're confusing me a little. As far as I can tell, nobody has denied that good hospital births happen or said that every woman should want a homebirth. In fact, I've read many statements that women should give birth wherever they feel the most comfortable.

The only consistent message I'm seeing here is that if you want an intervention-free birth, your odds are much better at home than in the hospital. Is this truly being debated, or am I misunderstanding?
post #80 of 134
This is my thought too Sarah. Oh my.
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