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I get to be part of a "please cover up" column. Help.  

post #1 of 101
Thread Starter 
I work for a newspaper, and here is an e-mail I received this morning from one of my colleagues:

"hey sue, i'm writing a column for next month about breast feeding in public, in response to the nurse-in last week at several airports. i agree breast-feeding is important healthwise for babies, but i think mothers should exercise discretion when it comes to how much skin is shown.

i know you have strong views on the overall subject of breastfeeding, but i wondered if you also have an opinion about the "skin" issue -- do you think mothers should use some sort of shawl or cover or do you think that's not necessary? i'm looking for a counterpoint to my opinion, so if it's the latter, would you mind being interviewed for my piece?"

I shot her back a hopefully restrained e-mail that went as follows:
"Oh yes, I have a counterpoint. I have a story regarding me nursing a newborn Alison in a West Long Branch, N.J., McDonald's. I'd be happy to talk.

No, I don't think a cover-up is necessary, as your average magazine cover model or Macy's bra ad in our Day paper shows more breast flesh than I do/did nursing a baby. People need to get over themselves and their hangups with breasts being sexual objects."

I pretty much know what to say to her, as I can mine any number of threads here for good material. Here is a question: The columnist is (a) black and (b) has no children. Should I bring up either of these points as I'm talking? There are a few good references in one of the "cover up" threads about blacks being segregated because whites were offended by them, etc.

Any suggestions appreciated!
post #2 of 101
I think you should stick to the point about near-nudity being tolerated everywhere else in our society EXCEPT for the one place it would be most natural.

And you should really try to get at the disconnect here: that the vast majority of nursing mothers do not show any breast at all. People's discomfort does not arise from what they see - which in most cases is nothing - but from what they realize is going on: breasts being used for non-sexual purposes. Why?
post #3 of 101
Tell your collegue not to write such a ridiculous piece in the first place. Would she write a "Blacks shouldn't eat in public with whites because they are disgusting to look at" type of article? Of course not, but she can write a "Women and breastfed babies shouldn't eat with the rest of us because they are disgusting to look at" type of article and that's okay? By agreeing to be interviewed, it sort of sends the message that it's up for discussion, which it shouldn't be. I wouldn't agree to be interveiwed for an article that starts out with an anti-NIP bias because then I'm being put on the defensive for something that I don't have to defend. If this journalist wasn't personally biased then maybe I'd do the interview, if she was more open minded, but she's not.
post #4 of 101
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benji'sMom View Post
Tell your collegue not to write such a ridiculous piece in the first place. Would she write a "Blacks shouldn't eat in public with whites because they are disgusting to look at" type of article? Of course not, but she can write a "Women and breastfed babies shouldn't eat with the rest of us because they are disgusting to look at" type of article and that's okay? By agreeing to be interviewed, it sort of sends the message that it's up for discussion, which it shouldn't be. I wouldn't agree to be interveiwed for an article that starts out with an anti-NIP bias because then I'm being put on the defensive for something that I don't have to defend. If this journalist wasn't personally biased then maybe I'd do the interview, if she was more open minded, but she's not.
I wish she wouldn't write the column. But she will whether I participate or not. And if I don't, she won't have the voice of reason -- me -- in her column.
post #5 of 101
I'd also make the point that breastfeeding is just the normal way babies eat. (Not "natural" )
post #6 of 101
post #7 of 101
i wouldn't bring skin colour into it. it can be too easily misconstrued. the people who will be reading what you write, looking for holes in your argument will latch onto that (pun intended) and it will become the focal point for them.
post #8 of 101
There are plenty of breastfeeding proponents who promote discreetness because it was or is easy for them- and they figure, 'why not just be discreet'. While I agree that this misses the point becuase babies eating is both natural and a right, it also misses the point that for many discreetness is simply impossible or just extremely difficult and stress-causing.

There are a lot of things I assumed about parenting before I became a parent. That it was easy to breastfeed and 'cover-up' was probably one of them.

About a second after trying to hold a newborn and breastfeed in a hospital gown made me realize that I wished for about 4 hands- and heck with discretion- there was no way that was going to happen. Part of the reason for my awkwardness was the fact that I was trying to BE discreet. Had I not worried about my breast showing and just stopped adjusting things would have been much smoother, easier, and I probably would have been discreet by default.

A few of the nursing shirts and bras I bought made it even MORE difficult for me- because of the layers to lift and the snaps to unsnap, etc.

About the time it got easier and more coordinated, my son was much more awake and aware and would not stand for a bit of discretion- other than the natural placement of his body which shields 99% of my breast. A blanket placed on him or me was instantly thrown off by wobbily hands or kicking feet.

And the reality is that almost all of the people that are offended by breastfeeding are offended by the simple thought of breastfeeding and it doesn't matter how discreet a person is- they seem to find cause to complain or be offended.

Case in point is Emily's incident-- she was being discreet- and what good did that do?? Tell your friend that people get the evil eye even when being discreet, luckily this is the minority.

So yes, I'd say that your friend could be approached with the, but 'you are not a parent (yet) way'. Not only about people's assumptions about discreetness-- but also the fact that she might be surprised at the attitudes some people have about breastfeeding.

HTH's

Jessica
post #9 of 101
I think the "no children" angle might have some interesting potential. Not in terms of saying "you don't have kids, you can't understand," but along the lines of "I never realized how much covering up is a PITA before I had kids." I always thought I'd be a pretty consistent coverer up before I had a baby but now I'm only about a 50/50 coverer because sometimes I don't have a cover, sometimes a cover makes things too awkward, sometimes it makes my ds mad, etc. For me, the thing I didn't realize was that when baby's hungry, a nursing mom can't fool around too much or baby gets all worked up, then mother's anxiety level rises, and then she draws more attention to herself because she's all frantic, baby's crying, and it's harder and harder to get everything situated as time passes.
post #10 of 101
Oh, if your friend has a good sense of humor, maybe you can send her this comic to help make your point:

www.thecowgoddess.com/?p=74 (Diversion)

It's where Hathor takes off her shirt to cover a mother who needs to nurse her baby. And I believe there is another one where she takes off her shirt or grabs a blanket and puts it over the 'complainers' head instead.



There's also these:
http://www.thecowgoddess.com/?p=246 (nudity laws)
http://www.thecowgoddess.com/?p=214 (women shoudl be) w/feminist appeal

Jessica
post #11 of 101
I think what others have said about the non-parent issue is right. On the topic of race, it can get difficult. I am a woman of color, and do see the discrimination that nursing mothers face as corresponding to racial discrimination (on a much smaller scale). Possibly without stating outright the comparison, but explaining the discrimination and prejudice in a way that reminds her that its a civil rights issue would be useful. Example: If you were at a restaurant and someone found your appearance or your table manners offensive, they would not be allowed to make you sit in a dark corner. They could move if they so chose, but making you move would indicate that the other person is worth more than you. If you chose to sit in the dark corner b/c you wanted to be by yourself, that's all right, but forcing a mother and babe to cover is like making them sit in the dark corner when they did not want to.

I know that even here, some people don't like it when the discrimination that a bfing mother faces is compared with the discrimination that ethnic minority members face, so you might not want to make a blatant comparison, yk?
post #12 of 101
If you'd like, I can bring up a list of magazines featuring either topless or fully nude models that are available in grocery stores, gas stations, etc. I researched that particular topic for another forum about 6 months ago, and I believe I kept the list. Gimme a minute to bring it up, and I'll post it for you, if that would help you to have very specific (date, mag, celebrity) references of when/why/how nudity is tolerated.
post #13 of 101
Thread Starter 
I like these suggestions. Sabo, I appreciate your guiding voice in terms of it being a civil rights issue. And Phoebe's angle is great about "before I had kids, I never knew what a PITA it would be to cover up." So true.

There is so much to say, I hope I can keep my cool. I'm going to have my "interview" with her tomorrow. And Redifer, I would love to have that list on hand of the magazines.

I'll say this: Like any decent columnist, she actually appreciates a dissenting view, so I think she should do a good job.

Now if I could just change her mind on circ.
post #14 of 101
Harper's Bazaar, Aug 2006, Britney Spears (pregnant), nude, cover.

Rolling Stone, Jan 22 1981. Nude John Lennon, cover.
"named the top magazine cover to appear since 1965" -American Society of Magazine Editors -Top 40 Magazine Covers of the Last 40 Years

Vanity Fair, Aug 1991, Demi Moore, (pregnant), nude, cover

Entertainment Weekly, May 2, 2003 - Dixie Chicks, 3 women, nude, cover

Vanity Fair, September 9, 2005, Paris Hilton, topless, cover

Vanity Fair, March 2006, Kiera Knightly & Scarlett Johannson, nude, cover

GQ, date unverified, Pam Anderson, topless, cover

GQ, date unverified, Halle Berry, topless in thong, cover

Rolling Stone, Paulino Rubio, topless, cover

GQ, Naomi Campbell, nude, cover

GQ, Adriama Lima, topless, cover



And that's only the beginning.



Rolling Stone covers:
Sarah Michelle Gellar, leather corset, thigh high boots
Britney Spears, tiny tank top, massive cleavage shot
Gwen Stefani, white bra
Janet Jackson, 1998, gold lame micromini halter, cleavage
Jenny Mccarthy, bikini top
Christina Aguilera, lingerie
Lucy Lawless, lingerie
Jennifer Aniston, red sequin corset
Jessica Alba, white gauze midriff shirt



Entertainment Weekly covers
Sarah Jessica Parker, conveniently displayed in nude underwear to appear nude


GQ covers:
Christina Aguilera, lingerie, cover
Britney Spears, midriff top, pulling shorts down, cover
post #15 of 101
Phrases on Cosmopolitan Covers:

Naughty Sex - Bold, Black font, approx size 18-20
The Sexiest Things to Do After Sex - bold, white font, all caps, size 16
Guys Sex Drive - Bold, Yellow, All caps font, size 20
Girl On Top - black font, size 14
30 Sex Boosters - black, all caps, size 30 decreasing to 24
Sex Survey - yellow, all caps, size 30
Sizzling Sex Tips - yellow, size 20

That's from 4 magazine covers, which are typically displayed at checkout aisles in groceries.


IN magazines:

Advertisements:
Obsession for Men cologne, by Calvin Klein, featuring a nude Kate Moss

PETA ad, Charlotte Ross (NYPD Blue), Dominique Swain, Pamela Anderson, Kim Basinger, Sheryl Lee, and Christy Turlington - seperate ads, nude

Yves Saint Laurent - M7 ad widespread, full frontal nudity (male), used in GQ and W magazines




TV -
NYPD Blue has used both male and female partial nudity - FOX
Music video - Duran Duran's "Girls on Film" - presented topless models wrestling on the mud and the depictions of other sexual fetishes.
Music video - Frankie Goes to Hollywood's "Relax" - scenes of an orgy
Music video - Madonna's "Justify My Love" - featured scenes of partial nudity, homosexuality, mild sado-masochism.
Music video - Madonna's "Erotica" - appears doing nude poses
Music video - Alanis Morissette's "Thank U" - nude during entire video
Music video - Björk's "Pagan Poetry", - Björk in a dress designed by Alexander McQueen, that covered only the lower portion of her body. The video also included distorted images of sexual intercourse, fellatio, and a graphic display of body piercing.
Music video - Britney Spears' "Toxic" - Spears is seen entirely nude aside from several strategically-placed crystals on her body.



From wikipedia:
* 1993: The first episode of Steven Bochco's NYPD Blue aired on ABC. On that episode, Amy Brenneman exposed her buttocks. The actors who have done nude scenes for the show (during its more than 12 seasons) include David Caruso, Kim Delaney, Dennis Franz, Mark-Paul Gosselaar, Melina Kanakaredes, Sharon Lawrence, Charlotte Ross, Rick Schroder, John Wesley Shipp, Henry Simmons, Jimmy Smits, and Sherry Stringfield, among others.

* 1994: Actress Meredith Baxter exposed her breast on the CBS made-for-TV movie My Breast, in a scene with her doctor examining her for breast cancer. The scene was not considered indecent due to its portrayal of nudity in a medical context. The movie carried a parental advisory disclaimer when it first aired, to which Baxter openly objected [citation needed].

* 1996: PBS aired ITV's Fortunes and Misfortunes of Moll Flanders starring British actress Alex Kingston (ER). The actress showed her breasts in some love scenes.

* 1996: an episode of David E. Kelley's medical drama Chicago Hope broke a major network TV taboo by showing the breasts of a teenage girl after her character undergoes successful reconstructive surgery. The scene, like Meredith Baxter's, wasn't considered indecent due to the medical context of the scene. Note that Kelley's show was also the first to use the word "shit" on a network TV series.

* 1997: Steven Spielberg's Schindler's List was broadcast on NBC on the night of February 23 sponsored by Ford Motor Company. Per Spielberg's insistence, the network aired the unedited/uncensored version of his film. The telecast was the first ever to receive a TV-MA rating under the TV Parental Guidelines that had been established at the beginning of that year. Many Christian groups objected to the film being shown on network television, due to strong scenes of nudity, violence, and the use of vulgar language which weren't edited out for TV airing.

* 2000-2005: The US version of Queer as Folk, shown on Showtime, was known for its many instances of nude men and women, starting with a long scene in the first episode depicting a sexual encounter between the characters Brian and Justin.

* 2001: CBS aired an episode of its hit series CSI: Crime Scene Investigation titled "Slaves of Las Vegas" on November 15. The breasts and buttocks of a female corpse are seen on an examination table. A camera shot zooms in through the victim's nipple to focus on her breast implant. The episode carried a viewer discretion advisory, though it was likely more for the episode's strong sexual content than for nudity.

* 2002: FOX aired the first episode of John Doe. On the series, Dominic Purcell played the role of a man who woke up naked on the middle of an island, and did not know who he was. Trying to leave the island, he fell into the sea, exposing his buttocks. The scene was repeated in the opening titles for the rest of the series' run.

* 2003 Naked Beach Frenzy is a episode of the Ren & Stimpy Adult Party Cartoon. This episode was never aired on Spike TV on American television but is on the Lost Episodes DVD with 2 others. On the commentary, John K specifically asked Spike TV if he could show the nipples for which they replied "Sure! It's a MAN'S network" so they did. John K also said that the advertisers "freaked out" which is more likely responisible for the episode being pulled from air, not the nipples. John K blames Janet Jackson for this due to her infamous Super Bowl halftime show.

* 2004: CBS aired Super Bowl XXXVIII. During the halftime show, singer Justin Timberlake exposed Janet Jackson's breast in what would later be deemed a "wardrobe malfunction". As a result of this incident, some episodes of America's top drama shows such as E.R., NYPD Blue and Without a Trace had to be re-edited before airing. (See Super Bowl XXXVIII halftime show controversy).

* 2004: The WB aired the first episode of the fourth season of their hit show Smallville. On this episode, Clark Kent (Tom Welling) returns to Smallville re-programmed as Kal-El. Lois Lane (Erica Durance) finds him naked in a cornfield and takes him to the local hospital. When they get there, Clark drops the towel Lois gave him, exposing the upper part of his buttocks.

* 2004: ABC premiered their new hit show Desperate Housewives. During the second episode, gardener John Rowland (Jesse Metcalfe) is seen partially (but not explicitly) with his rear naked. Just like Smallville's partial nudity, this was not considered offensive and got past the network censors.

* 2006: Blade: The Series, shown on Spike TV, showed the character Chase walking away from the camera. Her nude body was shown from behind.





These are just the tip of the iceberg of what is considered "acceptable" nudity in American media.
Let's not forget the 50 million (numbers approx accurate) Victoria's Secret catalogs mailed out annually, or the numerous ads for soap, shampoo, etc which feature partial nudity on tv or in print.
Why should breastfeeding be something to do "discreetly", as it is so put, when nudity is blatantly shoved down our throats from every angle, so long as there isn't a child attached to said exposed breast?


(For the record, I have no issue with nudity, I'm rather like a nudist myself... but I am so ANTI-hypocrites)
post #16 of 101
I have always told new moms that if you are wanting to be decrete while nursing don't use a cover, to me it just screams ...I"M NURSING, DONT LOOK AT ME..

I have had numerous people tell me that they can never tell if I'm nursing.

I agree with pp that the point of the nude body is everywhere! Most of the teen girls at the mall show more skin than me while I'm nursing.

Good luck with the interview and post it if you can!!
post #17 of 101
Thread Starter 
Redifer, that is some voluminous work. Amazing. Thank you so very much.

And you didn't even touch my personal favorite, the bra ads that pay our salaries in the daily newspaper, which I mentioned in my e-mail to Trina.

I won't bring up Janet Jackson, as there was such an uproar over that nipple that didn't have a baby attached to it. I also won't mention the John Lennon cover of RS, which I believe was VERY controversial. But some of those ads and mag covers, we're so blase about them as a society.
post #18 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redifer View Post
Sarah Michelle Gellar, leather corset, thigh high boots
Lucy Lawless, lingerie
Jessica Alba, white gauze midriff shirt
Is it bad that this is what popped out at me from your list? :



Seriously, that is an amazing collection. How'd you research all that?
post #19 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arwyn View Post
Seriously, that is an amazing collection. How'd you research all that?
Yes, I'd love to know too! Is this something you have compiled somewhere to share?
post #20 of 101
I was reading an debate about discreet breastfeeding, and had made a comment about how we tolerate breasts in our face on a daily basis, provided they are displayed in a sexual fashion; yet as soon as those breasts are used to nourish human life, they instantly become dirty parts to be hidden. Someone disputed this and asked for some form of proof that these images bombard us daily, so I got a "hair up my butt" and did some googling.

The majority of that information pops up through Google in about a 15 minute search. I had originally gone much farther into research for a few days, but after reformatting the computer realized that I had only saved a portion of all my research to a cd, and had lost the rest.

Try a quick test: Look up "Nude Magazine Covers" on google/google image search. You'll be surprised what comes up.

I'm actually currently compiling a rather comprehensive database and some homemade statistics on nude displays in the media for the sake of advertising, as well as trying to keep up on what is considered "appropriate", if only to spew out facts at people who tell women to "cover it up"

Anyway, glad I helped!! Happy to be of service anytime!
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