Cow milk - good or bad? - Page 2

[momto l&a]

Raw milk

As to the day care they shouldn't give you any grief over what you want YOUR child fed IMO.

[roadfamily6now]

Originally Posted by gardenmommy

Depending on where I was, I would most certainly drink milk from a giraffe, water buffalo, etc. I think that milk from other species can be a very good addition to the human diet, esp. for picky young children who may be at risk for consuming insufficient calories/nutrition.

Animal milks have been used in the human diet for many thousands of years with no adverse effects. It is a traditional food.

I think it's important to get your milk as close to the source as possible: ideally it should be raw. Cultured milk (yogurt, kefir, creme fraiche, raw milk cheese, etc.) is much easier to digest.

this one I agree with.

[G-Mama]

"Animal milks have been used in the human diet for many thousands of years with no adverse effects."

Interesting interpretation of the science....

from www.drfuhrman.com January 05 newsletter

Milk: Does It Do A Body Good?
Recent research sheds a very bad light on dairy consumption.

Parkinson’s disease
Recent studies have shown that men who consume more dairy
products and who are big milk- drinkers have a higher occurrence
of Parkinson’s disease. Honglei Chen,M.D.,of Harvard University reported his findings at the annual meeting of the American College of Nutrition
(December 2004) and presented a few other studies, one of which
was the Parkinson’s Disease Honolulu Study, that showed the
same association. The interesting finding was that it was not the fat
in milk and dairy that were implicated. Usually, the high saturated
fat content of dairy is blamed for its disease risk. But in this case,
according to Chen,fat was “out of the picture.”Calcium and added vitamin D also were unrelated. That means something else in dairy is the culprit.The relationship between Parkinson’s and milk consumption has been suspected
for decades(1)and was first reported by researchers a few years ago.
Chen’s and other recent prospective studies have confirmed the earlier,less definitive findings.

Heart disease
A related recent finding is that deaths from heart disease also are strongly associated with milk drinking in adulthood.Of particular interest is that (as is the case with Parkinson’s) the association is with the non-fat portion of milk. Non-fat and skim milk consumption shows the same association as that of whole milk.Researchers
found that heart disease death is strongly associated with circulat-
ing antibodies against milk.These antibodies are found to bind to
human lymphocytes and platelets, thus increasing the likelihood of
clot formation. The researchers also concluded that the non-fat
aspects of milk have atherogenic effects (plaque-building) both biochemical and immunological,and the simultaneous attack from all these directions explains why milk was found to have such a strong effect on death rate.(2)

Ovarian cancer
A recent study of 61,000 women found that those who consumed more than 2 glasses of milk per day had twice the risk of serous ovarian cancer than women who consumed fewer than two glasses.The risk of those who drank
two glasses a day was double that of women who rarely drank milk.(3) Lactose in milk seemed to be the primary culprit.Again this larger study confirms earlier studies with the same findings.

References:
1. Chen H, Zhang SM, Hernan MA, Willett
WC, Ascherio A.Diet and Parkinson’s dis-
ease: a potential role of dairy products in men.
Ann Neurol2002 Dec;52(6):793-801.
2. Moss M, Freed D. The cow and the coronary:
epidemiology, biochemistry and immunology.
Int J Cardiol2003;87(2-3):203-216.
3. Larsson SC, Bergkvist L, Wolk A. Milk and
lactose intakes and ovarian cancer risk in the
Swedish Mammography Cohort. Am J Clin
Nutr 2004;80(5):1353-1357.

[Gale Force]

It's hard to know how much of the ill-effects of milk these days is caused by the processing and animal husbandry practices as opposed to the milk itself.

A century ago people used exclusive milk diets to fight disease. One doctor, Dr Charles Sanford Porter, treated thousands of patients over several decades with exclusive milk diets of at least a month in duration.

[G-Mama]

GaleForce-

went to that site... correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't find any scientific journals/articles sited there. Am I missing something?

[Gale Force]

Originally Posted by G-Mama

GaleForce-

went to that site... correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't find any scientific journals/articles sited there. Am I missing something?

No. It's a book from 100 years ago. Thousands of people did it and claim health cures. Interesting factoid given the current research on milk. That's all. The Porter book which is not on the page goes into more detail.

[gardenmommy]

Gale Force is right. Milk as we know it today is nothing like traditional milk. Traditionally, milk was consumed either straight from the animal, or was cultured. It was not pasteurized, homogenized, fat-reduced, stored, shipped, bottled in plastic, etc.

Generations of people have consumed raw milk and thrived. I think we are seeing the problems with dairy today because of the extreme processing milk undergoes before it is consumed. No wonder people associate so many problems with milk.

[momto l&a]

Also what the cows grazed on 100's of years ago is different than the depleted soils of today that are chemical laden.

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by Gale Force

No. It's a book from 100 years ago. Thousands of people did it and claim health cures. Interesting factoid given the current research on milk. That's all. The Porter book which is not on the page goes into more detail.

Dr. John Crewe, one of the founders of the Mayo Foundation (which became the Mayo Clinic), wrote “Raw Milk Cures Many Diseases,” an article that was published in Certified Milk Magazine in 1929. He opened a sanitarium that was devoted to treating patients using the “milk cure.” Of course, the only milk available in those days was unpasteurized and from grassfed cows and goats.

http://www.realmilk.com/milkcure.html

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by gardenmommy

Depending on where I was, I would most certainly drink milk from a giraffe, water buffalo, etc. I think that milk from other species can be a very good addition to the human diet, esp. for picky young children who may be at risk for consuming insufficient calories/nutrition.

Did you see the article about the world's oldest woman who recently passed away at age 116? Her family credits her longevity to drinking fresh donkey's milk.

http://tinyurl.com/ynxm28

[rareimer]

Originally Posted by tboroson

I don't think any human being needs milk. Clearly, our society survived for milennia before figuring out how to milk other species. Much of the world thrives with little to no dairy in their diets.

That doesn't mean that I think all humans should, therefore, abstain from drinking it. It's a culturally important food product, and has incredible emotional and social connections that are hard to deny. Further, while it's certainly not the "perfect" food that the dairy industry would have us believe (especially in the horribly damaged form they sell to us, pasteurized and homogenized), it is a nutritionally dense food. In our current environment of processed, severely nutritionally diminished foods (i.e. juice and crackers), I don't think that it's wise to disparage one of the few nutritionally dense foods that remains readily and inexpensively available to us just because it's imperfect.

My opinion is, while cow's/goat's milk is not *neccisary* for anyone, the one group that most benefits from it is toddlers who are not still nursing. I believe that toddlers need a lot of cholesterol, efa's and minerals. If you're still nursing your son, I don't think he needs supplemental milk at all. He gets plenty of good stuff from your breastmilk. I don't feel it would hurt to give him some, unless he turns out to be sensitive to it; but I don't think he needs it. For a toddler who is weaned, though, milk is a very effective way to deliver those factors, especially within the constraints of a vegetarian diet.

you know, i often struggle with the whole dairy thing, but this post really makes so much sense, and is essentially my feelings on the subject. thank you for putting it so eloquently!

[G-Mama]

A couple of comments...

First, I'm not sure a "medical" study from 1929 is a valid support in favor of milk especially in light of much more recent studies on saturated fat.

Second, raw milk has the added risk of infectious disease such as listeria- obviously a risk for pregnant women and small children.

Third, raw or pasteurized, you're still consuming a product that is high in saturated fat and thus putting yourself at risk for heart disease.

Do I think milk is some evil food to be avoided at all costs? No. But I don't think regular consumption is healthy and it certainly isn't some miracle food. (unless, maybe, you don't have access to any other food, which certainly isn't the case in this country.)

I would have doubted all this, too, a couple of years ago. I mean, 'milk, it does a body good" right? But I've since done a lot of research about dairy products and wanted to pass on some of the surprising things I found out. Hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes. I really don't mean to.

[Gale Force]

G-mama -- it's true. We don't *really* know. Studies are not designed to test the kinds of things that are being discussed in this thread.

The link is not to a medical study at all, but to a type of diet that doctors used 100 years ago and they had success curing a lot of diseases. If milk is really that bad, it does seem strange that you can live on it for a month (or much longer in some cases as described by the doctors) and actually get rid of your autoimmune diseases and a host of other conditions. Porter treated people for 30 years with the diet -- thousands of people. Apparently he documented each case in some detail. I wonder where that documentation is now. It probably no longer exists.

Given this human experience, even though much of it is 100 years old, don't you think we should ask whether there are benefits to drinking the type of milk people drank 100 years ago? Current studies on saturated fat or on milk are not designed to address this question, so we can argue until we're blue in the face, but there is no evidence either way.

You're not stepping on my toes, pass on the information about dairy. It's all interesting.

[marieandchris]

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=546187

[momto l&a]

I read of a study from over 100 years ago that the most easily digested milk is donkey milk.

I have milked a donkey but never tasted it.

[Gale Force]

Originally Posted by momto l&a

I read of a study from over 100 years ago that the most easily digested milk is donkey milk.

I have milked a donkey but never tasted it.

Where? Tell us!

[momto l&a]

Originally Posted by Gale Force

Where? Tell us!

About 5 years ago I had a jenny who had her baby in the dead of winter and the baby didn't do well so we brought it into the house and I milked the jenny to force feed the baby.

It rather like milking a goat with short nipples except the donkey is much larger.

[G-Mama]

Originally Posted by Gale Force

G-mama -- it's true. We don't *really* know. Studies are not designed to test the kinds of things that are being discussed in this thread.

The link is not to a medical study at all, but to a type of diet that doctors used 100 years ago and they had success curing a lot of diseases. If milk is really that bad, it does seem strange that you can live on it for a month (or much longer in some cases as described by the doctors) and actually get rid of your autoimmune diseases and a host of other conditions. Porter treated people for 30 years with the diet -- thousands of people. Apparently he documented each case in some detail. I wonder where that documentation is now. It probably no longer exists.

Given this human experience, even though much of it is 100 years old, don't you think we should ask whether there are benefits to drinking the type of milk people drank 100 years ago? Current studies on saturated fat or on milk are not designed to address this question, so we can argue until we're blue in the face, but there is no evidence either way.

You're not stepping on my toes, pass on the information about dairy. It's all interesting.

Glad no toe stepping is going on!

I think, however, that the 100 year old research that you're refering to is coming from the dentist that the Weston-Price Foundation cites. From what I've gathered, his research was spotty at best.
Here is Dr. T. Colin Campbell addressing this issue at the 2006 Healthy Lifestyle Expo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxb7XPm_SxU

And here's the article to which he refers:
http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/c...onse_print.htm

I think he does a pretty thorough job of discrediting this 'science'. And I believe he even addresses the depleted soil issue (although I would have liked him to write more about this.)

I'm curious, too, though. There does seem to be a lot of conflicting work out there- I just happen to think, thus far, that a much stronger case has been made in favor of limiting animal products.

There's also this which was interesting:
http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives...tml#discussion

Ok. My face is now very blue.

[Gale Force]

Originally Posted by G-Mama

I think, however, that the 100 year old research that you're refering to is coming from the dentist that the Weston-Price Foundation cites. From what I've gathered, his research was spotty at best.

I was referring to the books referenced on the milk diet website. Those are not "research" as much as we know it today as much as they are self-help how-to type of books based on the life's work of several doctors. One doctor wrote one in the mid-1800s, another in the early 1900s that went through at least 10 editions, and then the MacFadden book. Hippocrates was apparently the first person of any reknown to use the milk diet to cure disease.

I don't know what any of the milk books have to do with Weston Price. Weston Price was big on butter because of one of the properties of butter fat, but I'm not aware of him otherwise promoting exclusive milk diets. In fact, the milk diet books discuss using skim milks for the milk diet which would effectively cut out the key property that Price liked so much.

[Gale Force]

Originally Posted by momto l&a

About 5 years ago I had a jenny who had her baby in the dead of winter and the baby didn't do well so we brought it into the house and I milked the jenny to force feed the baby.

It rather like milking a goat with short nipples except the donkey is much larger.

So you brought the baby in the house not the mom, right? Just checking.

You know you are in the presence of an expert when she is describing the nipple size.