That weird thing they do - Page 42

[BMG580]

I've attended two Masses now, one at a more "liberal" parish and one at a more traditional parish. The people in the more traditional parish seemed to have a more involved physical cross, instead of just touching forehead and chest, they seemed to be touching their noses and chins too? I'm not quite sure, I could be off on this. What is the difference? Also I see a lot of mention of N.O. which is post Vatican II? Are all parishes N.O.? How can some parishes be more liberal if they are all reporting up the same chain of command, all accepting the same Catholic Catechism? Is the priest more liberal or something else?

[tempestjewel]

Well, it took me 2 days to read this thread, and I feel like I should get a gold star or something :

[Nitenites]

Originally Posted by Charbeau

I've attended two Masses now, one at a more "liberal" parish and one at a more traditional parish. The people in the more traditional parish seemed to have a more involved physical cross, instead of just touching forehead and chest, they seemed to be touching their noses and chins too? I'm not quite sure, I could be off on this. What is the difference? Also I see a lot of mention of N.O. which is post Vatican II? Are all parishes N.O.? How can some parishes be more liberal if they are all reporting up the same chain of command, all accepting the same Catholic Catechism? Is the priest more liberal or something else?

There is the "big" sign of the cross, which is forehead, chest, left shoulder, right shoulder. That's traditionally used in blessings, before & after prayers, and sometimes as a prayer in itself. Some people (in my area, it's mostly people of Latin American or Pacific Island descent) who make the sign of the cross and then kiss their finger/thumb - it's a sign of reverence. (I can only speak from the people I know, so I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about.) Then there's the "little" sign of the cross, in which the person draws a cross (using his/her thumb) on the forehead, lips, and heart. Usually this is done before the reading of the Gospel at ALL Masses. It's a way to remind us to keep the Word in our minds, on our lips, and in our hearts.

The Novus Ordo Mass is the Mass that was instituted after Vatican II. The structure of the Mass isn't found in the Catechism, but in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM). The GIRM for the NO isn't as specific as it should be (in the opinion of many), and leaves a lot of "loopholes" that allow for abuses of the Mass. Yes, some parishes are more liberal, and it's often (though not always) because of the preferences of the priest. IMO, it's part of the growing pains of Vatican II. I think so many priests and lay people have taken the "spirit of Vatican II" and run with it, not realizing the damage they're doing. And I'll stop there, because this could turn into a rant.

[Peppermint]

I saw the sign of the cross question this morning and thought "hopefully someone else will answer that one better than I would, if not I'll come back for it". Thanks Nitenites

[BMG580]

Thank you for explaining about the two ways Catholics cross themselves. Very interesting! At one of the parishes there were a bunch of candles by a statue of Mary and people were stopping to light them after the service. Is this something to do for Mary or was her statue just coincidentally near the candles? And what is the significance of people stopping at the baptismal font and putting the water on their faces? Is the water blessed or suppose to do something? (Can you tell I was raised Protestant?!)

[Peppermint]

The candles by Mary are a shrine for her. People light candles and pray asking Mary to intercede for us and pray for our intentions.

We bless ourselves with the Holy Water, it is a sacramental and gives us graces.

[wombatclay]

Is this something to do for Mary or was her statue just coincidentally near the candles? And what is the significance of people stopping at the baptismal font and putting the water on their faces? Is the water blessed or suppose to do something?

The water is blessed and people will generally wet a finger or two and cross themselves, remembering their baptismal vows. During some rituals this water is sprinkled over the entire congregation (again to recall baptismal vows), but often people will use the holy water to make the sign of the cross while genuflecting (one knee to the floor) or while entering/leaving.

Since Mary is seen as an important companion/role model/source of help and assistance by Catholics many churches will have statues or images of Mary. People will often light candles by these statues/images as a sign of respect or as an offering/thanksgiving. Usually a small donation is made before lighting a candle and different parishes use these donations for different things... some just use it to replenish the candle supply, some use them to purchase flowers for the Marian shrine, others donate this money to their pregnancy outreach programs.

[CherryBomb]

Originally Posted by Charbeau

Are all parishes N.O.? How can some parishes be more liberal if they are all reporting up the same chain of command, all accepting the same Catholic Catechism? Is the priest more liberal or something else?

Most parishes nowadays are Novus Ordo, but there are still Traditional parishes that celebrate the Latin Mass. Also, being NO doesn't mean you aren't faithful to the Magesterium! My parish is NO and very faithful to the institutional Church

The Church says she is empowered by Christ to speak authoritatively on spiritiual and doctrinal matters, and thus, Catholics in good standing should accept and submit to that authority. That doesn't always happen in practice, though.

[doubledutch]

whew! i think it took me the whole week to read this!

i know the foot-washing question is older and has been answered, but i have something to add. i also felt uncomfortable with it growing up (um, guessing many people feel that way!). it's supposed to be about humility, and i didn't get it at the time. in no way did i consider myself "above" washing feet, so i thought that meant i was "humble enough" and really didn't need to participate. in becoming a mother and needing to accept a lot of help, far more humiliating than having someone wash my feet, i figured it out. some need to humble themselves in order to serve others, but it also requires great humility to be on the receiving end of that gesture.

i grew up in the sda church (uh, and schools, and summer camps, etc!); no longer consider myself adventist . . . yet i bring my kids there! :

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by doubledutch

some need to humble themselves in order to serve others, but it also requires great humility to be on the receiving end of that gesture.

Amen.

[DocsNemesis]

I didnt go through the whole thread so this may have already been asked, but dh wanted to know something. He said he was told by...well, I dunno who...but someone, that JW's have a feast with tons of food and that no one can eat because its only for those who know they are going to heaven. Is this true and if so, what holiday is it? If any? He also wanted to know if they poison the food. (yes, he deserves a slap upside the head for that one!!!) I dont think he's trying to be offensive and I am sure they DONT, but he is curious nonetheless, lol.

[Lizzardbits]

Ok, I have only gotten through page 26 of 42(!) pages and I had to stop and respond to these questions (even though they are over a year old)

Originally Posted by lilyka

I have a question and I feel bad asking it but here is goes. What church is it that wears the long straight skirts (usually denim or khaki) and has their hair in a bun (and I swear whenever they gather in public they throw an awesome pot luck). the modesty thread got me thinking about this. And if anyone is a member of this church is there a reason everyone dresses alike? It seems to go beyond modesty and into uniform. is that just coincidence? or is is it expected that you will wear a very specific type of dress and wear your hair a very specific way?

Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa

Hmm, it's probably not quite it but the hair in a bun and long denim or khaki skirts makes me think of my friend's Pentecostal denom. The women are not to cut their hair and often the older women will put their hair up in a bun. I am not sure if that's it though. They wear different shirts and such, but to the elbow sleeves, no deep V necks, no pants or shorts on women, etc.

Lilyka-Since I was born and grew up in the city where you say your location is, I know exactly what Group you are talking about, as my parents are also of the same Christian denomination. The women you see are Apostolic Christian. There is a HUGE Apostolic Christian Church about 45 minutes away in Lester Iowa. (Average Sunday attendence is 500 members+their children+visiting members+non-member visitors+friends of the church. Weddings and funerals, one could see a few thousand attending!!)

The women are easier to "spot" as soon as they start repenting, they will adopt a modest feminine form of dressing, where long dresses, skirts, or if needs must, long culottes, shirts or blouses that modestly cover arms and decoullatage. They shy away from overly bright colored, or heavily decorated clothes and wear NO jewelry or make up (though some women may wear clear nail polish if they have justifiable nail problems, but not for and vainity reasons) Even wedding rings aren't worn.

Hair is worn in a modest style, usualy long and tied up in a bun, but there are a few other modest styles that are acceptable. Perms, and hair colorings are considered a vainity and distracting. The lacy "doily" is a prayer covering. It is worn all the time, including to bed, as the women doesn't know exactly when or where she will feel the need to pray, and it is seen as a form of reverence and humility in the Presence of the L-rd. In the church, women wear a veil over their prayer covering (usually a long black piece of lace that is about 2-4 inches wide and touches either shoulder) another form of reverence and humility.

The men are less likely to be "spotted" as they are only asked to dress modestly, no shorts, no sweat suits, no overly expensive namebrand clothes,
no going bare chested, no jewelry-including wedding bands, neatly trimmed hair and no facial hair.

They are also known as "modern Amish" as their denomination split off from Pennsylvania Dutch about 100-125 years ago.

Originally Posted by happyhippiemama

subbing....

I grew up Mennonite, and my grandparents used to be Amish, if anyone has questions.... (I haven't read the whole thread yet, tho, so they might've already been covered)

I grew up a mix between Brethren and Mennonite. My Dad has been accepted into the Amish community where Mom and Dad moved to, but in an odd way. He was a hired driver for them and since their beliefs overlap quite a bit he became not-quite-Amish, but not really "English" either. He is freely, as is my Mom, welcome into homes, singing services as well as wedding and funerals. He has offered an interesting perspective of their beliefs and traditions. I love picking his mind.

.....ok back to reading...where was I? oh ya, beginning of page 27!

[Lizzardbits]

Originally Posted by magstphil

this one is for Apostolics or the like (i'm not to sure if there are other branches or what ) why not cut your hair? and why no wedding rings? (an A friend of mine said you have engagement watches?)

Wedding rings are thought of as unnecessary and vain adornments and when couples are married, they are done so in the eyes of the L-rd and it His eyes that matter, not the eyes of man to gaze upon man made symbols.

Hair can be trimmed of unhealthy ends, for maintenence, cleanliness, and neatness. But as far as length, it is best to keep it long and modestly put up, and covered. there is Scripture somewhere about it but I am nak-ing at the moment.

Originally Posted by magstphil

thank you! i wonder why watches are ok then? hmmmmm....

Watches, as long as they are plain are ok as they have a practical purpose, but i have never heard of couples exchanging them for engagements.

My Mother has a nice watch, but chooses not to wear it and just buckle it to her purse strap. My Dad, back in the day when he was an RN, he had a white leather banded watch that he wore at his nursing job.

now on to reading page 32---only 10 left!

[lilyka]

Thanks

I have a blog entery right now with pictuires from my childrens Orthodox Baptism. If anyone has any questions I would love to answer them.

baptisms are usually done on infants and it is kinda rare that whole families are done at once.

[Lizzardbits]

Whew! I made it through all 42 pages and I am very pleased at how everyone was respectful of each other's beliefs (until the last few pages-that got a little murky with the birth control bits) But anyway...moving swiftly on...

I grew up liberal Brethren and was dedicated as Brethren as a baby (like infant baptism, but no water). I went with my family to a liberal Mennonite church when I was a preteen and early teen and had a Believer's baptism at 13 (in a lake, at the end of a Midwest USA September--Brrrrr!) At 15 my parents up and switched to Apostilic Christian, but I didn't follow suit. Through a turn of events I was placed in a foster home and they were (are still) Lutheran (Missouri Synod) So I chose to become a confirmed Lutheran, and eventually my first born son was baptized with my foster parents as his G-dparents. Eventually I became dissatisfied with all structured Christianity and all the edicts and laws made by man as he interpreted the Bible and went on a different path-Pagan with a Gardnerian Wiccan bend to it.

I keep it on the down low for the most part, even as far as leaving all of my books with a trusted friend back in the States when I moved to the UK, as my In-laws are super-in-your-face Evangelical Christians (not saying that all EC's are that way, just my In-laws and their particular group--so no offence to any EC's is ment)

I love learning from all the faiths, and I take bits from each into an amalgamation of my own faith. So I am jack of all trades but a master of none, but if asked I will give you my best and most knowledgeable answer.

[guestmama9911]

Welcome to the thread! I love this place. If only the world community would behave the same way!

[Beating Earth]

The most obvious example of this would be a genuine Satanist, who worships the devil. Most Satanists are actually just teenagers fooling with something they think is cool and a bit edgy...

Sorry this response to an OLD post but I'm still reading back on '07. I'm also not sure how to quote.

From dating a Satanist and reading Anton LeVays "The Satanic Bible; Satanism is not about worshipping Satan as anything other than a representation. Although I will concede that a good portion are teens looking for a thrill thru rebellion.

From what I have learned, Satanism is about the ego and the self. It is about focusing on and providing for yourself. Doing what you want before others.

I know that's brief and vague and I'm pretty sure this is very basic but I'm almost positive it truly has little or nothing to do with Satan as a being.

If I am wrong please correct me

[wytchywoman]

Originally Posted by Beating Earth

The most obvious example of this would be a genuine Satanist, who worships the devil. Most Satanists are actually just teenagers fooling with something they think is cool and a bit edgy...

Sorry this response to an OLD post but I'm still reading back on '07. I'm also not sure how to quote.

From dating a Satanist and reading Anton LeVays "The Satanic Bible; Satanism is not about worshipping Satan as anything other than a representation. Although I will concede that a good portion are teens looking for a thrill thru rebellion.

From what I have learned, Satanism is about the ego and the self. It is about focusing on and providing for yourself. Doing what you want before others.

I know that's brief and vague and I'm pretty sure this is very basic but I'm almost positive it truly has little or nothing to do with Satan as a being.

If I am wrong please correct me

:
Satanism isn't so much about worshipping satan, as a matter of fact as far as I can tell they don't really worship anything so I am not quite sure why they call themselves that. It seems to me that they are very much into living in the now and self gratification. From what I can tell they are just very anti religious in the aspect that they don't believe in the concept of sin or good vs evil, they simply believe that they should do what feels right to them irregardless of whatever anyone else thinks.