The sound of our guns is the sound of freedom

[Ilaria]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/04/...eut/index.html


Brother thanks NRA for helping make Bush president
Sunday, April 27, 2003 Posted: 10:01 AM EDT (1401 GMT)



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ORLANDO, Florida (Reuters) -- Florida Gov. Jeb Bush thanked the National Rifle Association Saturday for helping elect his brother president in 2000.

Bush, the keynote speaker at the gun lobby's annual convention, noted that 48 percent of the voters in the 2000 presidential race were gun owners, based on exit polls.

NRA support played a key role in several states, including Florida, where the vote was so close that the U.S. Supreme Court eventually had to settle the matter of disputed ballots, and in Tennessee, home state of George W. Bush's Democratic opponent, Al Gore.

[frogertgrl]

that is really disgusting.

"Were it not for your active involvement, it's safe to say my brother would not be president of the United States," the younger Bush said.

Please, don't remind me of what could have been!

[Ilaria]

Of course "they" have the right, no one said they don't.
It's good to remember who Dubya's supporters are and whom he can thank.

[NotQuiteJuneCleaver]

I respectfully disagree

[darlindeliasmom]

this is slightly off topic, but I think sadder still than the deep divide between the two main parties is that most Americans feel disenfranchised enough that they never vote... so 2 voters went for Gore and 2 for Bush...but what did the other 6 do/want? We'll never know...

{disclaimer: I don't know the actual percentage of people who voted, but it's so small compared to other democracies...}

[cumulus]

Concerning the fairness of the election, Norman Mailer had this to say about an election he referred to as legitimate/illegitimate in his speech to the Commonwealth Club of California:

http://www.commonwealthclub.org/feat...es.html#mailer

"America had learned all over again that Republicans had fine skills for dirty legal fighting. They were able to call, after all, on a powerful gene stream. The Republicans who led the campaign to seize Florida in the year 2000 are descended from 125 years of lawyers and bankers with the cold nerve and fired-up greed to foreclose on many a widow's home or farm. Nor did these lawyers and bankers walk about suffused with guilt. They had the moral equivalent of teflon on their soul. Church on Sunday, foreclose on Monday. Of course, their descendants won in Florida."

[Deirdre]

Originally posted by darlindeliasmom
this is slightly off topic, but I think sadder still than the deep divide between the two main parties is that most Americans feel disenfranchised enough that they never vote... so 2 voters went for Gore and 2 for Bush...but what did the other 6 do/want? We'll never know...

{disclaimer: I don't know the actual percentage of people who voted, but it's so small compared to other democracies...}

I think this a great point! What about the 50% of the electorate that doesn't vote???? I would venture to guess many of them are feeling very disenfranchised from politics and policy decisions.

dhlotusdebi2 ~ you bring up a good point: what are the points of the divide? I think the "points of the divide" are how each person believes we should go about obtaining the things that every person believes they are entitled to as an American. So I think that in the end most people want the same things ~ good education, affordable quality healthcare, security, shelter, food, clothing, leisure time, a livelihood that is satisfying and rewarding, a clean environement, freedom of expression/religion (not necessarily in that order!) The question is how do we obtain these things? Do we have less gov't and rely on the goodwill of individuals/groups/corporations to provide these things to each other or do we have larger gov't and rely on them to provide for and regulate these things?

I personally think there was a time in this country where "less government" really could and did work. Unfortunately, I think those times are no more. We can't rely on the "goodwill" of corporations (Enron, MCI, Arthur Anderson) to provide a stable and secure livelihood. And because of our culture of fear we can't rely on individuals to look out for each other.


~Deirdre

[candiland]

Well, my gut tells me that Jeb delivered Florida for his brother. We will find out exactly how sinister these plans were in the future, I'm sure, when it's too late to do anything about it. How ironic, huh? That the election came "so close", that Bush won, and now is doing whatever the hell he wants to the chagrin of the rest of the world and its governments. Hate to sound like a conspiracist, but, my God!, if truth ain't even stranger than the fiction, folks:

[amy mama]

I wonder if those two gun shots that killed a high school teacher and a student last week sounded like freedom?

[El Casey S]

Originally posted by dh2lotusdeb
Those are the people that I wish the Libertarian, Green, and other 'third' parties could tap.

I really think that one of the fundamental problems in the US is that you either get Dem or Rep, and both parties have degenerated to negative images of each other.

Thus, our government has become a hamster wheel, half black and half white, but when its spinning, it just looks grey ...

T And third parties are not going to change any of that in the US until they change their mind about them having the greatest Democracy in the world and look at Great Britain or Germany for better, healthier models . . .

The arrogance of the US will bring its downfall - and the abundance of weapons in that country highlights this - but what do they care about other countries that survive just fine without all those guns . . .

[El Casey S]

Originally posted by dh2lotusdeb
A does not follow B.

Besides, American Democracy predates the current version in the UK (when we split from GB, the monarchy still held supreme authority ... that did not change until later, when and whom escapes me), and seven 'German' governments, by my accounting (various states became Germany in 1871, from 1871-1918, a monarchy, from 1918-1933, Wiermehr Republic, 1933-1945 fascism, 1945-?? postwar occupation, West and East Germany, and unification)

Our model has carried us a long way. We also have a somewhat unique problem/opportunity in begin a very heterogenous culture. I'd dare say the most melting-potted of 1st world countries.

That also shows strength.

This is all T, but, I'll bite. That American democracy predates the others does not mean it's today the best form, or the most democratic or the one best designed to get the masses involved in their government (like comparing the Model T to a Ferarri). Melting-pot has it's problems as well - it is not heterogenous - it is a very torn country - ask the majority of the minorities if this is true. This image that you have of the US is an illusion based on denial of the root problems of that young country. The image that they are number one in all things has them denying, or at best brushing over their sins against the native Americans, the stolen African souls, and their crimes against other nations in the name of their interests, and the only true American heterogenous ideal is the get rich quick ideal . . . heterogenity founded in commercialism:

(Weimar Republic).