Marissa's story - Page 5

[barefoot mama]

May I also add that I do not appreciate the "doctor" tearing me apart simply because I practice and believe in alternative medicine? In my mind, that gives him even less credibility.

Can you tell I'm just a little : ?

You will all have to forgive me

[Annikate]

Originally Posted by barefoot mama

May I also add that I do not appreciate the "doctor" tearing me apart simply because I practice and believe in alternative medicine? In my mind, that gives him even less credibility.

Can you tell I'm just a little : ?

You will all have to forgive me

No need to apologize! I'm really too. In fact, my heart rate is up and so I'm going to walk away for a while and come back later.

And I know I'm not the only one. . .

[barefoot mama]

OK, I know I'm being a PITA, but is the story not clear? Flea seems to think Marissa's brain swelled during an "uncontrolled seizure". I thought
I was clear that she died in her sleep?

Was it also not clear that she did not seize during fevers? He seems to blame the fever, which never existed during 98% of her seizures, and not with the first one.

Hey~ this is good practice for dealing with umm........uninformed people when I sue them!

I'm over my anger (well, that experience of it anyway) and now I am going to say that I do not care what this person thinks or says. People like this want me to shut up in case someone actually listens.

And may I say that he has very appropriately named himself, if you think about fleas
(trying not to violate the UA)

Alright, I'm done now.

[Romana]

Thank you so much for sharing your story and Marissa's life with us. It is such a great help to me.

Julia

[Romana]

Ok, I just saw the Flea thing, and I am soooo mad! Why would you send the story to someone who is likely to tear it apart, and then provide the link? What purpose does that serve? If you notice from the comments, a fellow doctor or two actually disagrees with his take on it, too.

It would be one thing to provide the facts anonymously to serve individual curiousity for a "second" opinion, but to purposely give the parent's information and source so the blogger can criticize her "crazy homebirthing" ways (not a direct quote) and other personal choices in an attempt to discredit her is just beyond me.

I think that was clearly beyond the intent of the OP's willingness to share Marissa's story.

[Individuation]

Originally Posted by Romana9+2

Ok, I just saw the Flea thing, and I am soooo mad! Why would you send the story to someone who is likely to tear it apart, and then provide the link? What purpose does that serve?

Originally, I did not send Dr. Flea a link to Marissa's story. Instead, I recapped the story as a hypothetical situation (no names used or links provided), and asked him a medical question. I wanted the opinion of an ethical pediatrician as to whether Marissa's case sounded like a medical syndrome I had heard of--unrelated to vaccines. I was concerned for other reasons. He emailed me back asking if I was referring to the "Lavendar Essence" blog, and to Marissa's story.

Dr. Flea is a good pediatrician. He's very active in decreasing routine antibiotic use for ear infections, and against the general medicalizing of childhood. His blog is interesting and informative.

This is a difficult situation. Marissa's story has been made public--both here, and on barefoot mama's blog. This may invite comments that are not as supportive as those that would be made by family and friends. However, a choice was made to put the story out there. For my part, I (a stranger) read the story, had a (non-vaccine-related) concern, and asked a doctor a question. He apparently followed up, found the information posted online, and wrote his own opinion on his blog. Nothing wrong has been done here. No provacy has been violated.

I offered a link to Dr. Flea's blog to allow those vacillating on the vaccine issue to see another side. I also felt that barefoot mama should know that the story had gone a bit more public than she might be aware of.

Barefoot mama, I am again very sorry for your loss and send good wishes for the health and safety of all of your other children.

[mammom]

All in all, this particular public forum should be a place for Jen to receive the support she needs. I can only imagine her grief - and receiving negativity in any form was, I'm sure, not expected, so is probably a double punch in the stomach... More hugs to you, Jen. Really. I hope you know you have our support.

[Tracy]

I used to have a thread up for a long time and then in our many switches to new servers.. the thread didn't make it to the new server.

Anyway, on that thread I discussed a friend of mine from where I used to work. He had a daughter who had exactly what happened to Jen's daugther happened to her. It was after the DPT.

She has the mind of a 1 year old. She is now.. lets see, she is now 8.
Every doctor who saw her at the hospital indicated it was due to the shot. However, the reaction happened something like day 35 after the shot.
My friend was told that he could try to sue the pharms since it was a clear reaction but it would be hard because they are protected after 30 days. He did not have the energy. So, here they are with an 8 year old girl who has the mind of an 1 year old.
Who is going to take care of their daughter when they die?
Who is going to be there for her?
How is he going to find the funds to take care of her?


And on the same note.... there is a mommy at my sons' school who also has a 9 year old. She started having seizures after her shot. I think it was DPT although it may have been the MMR. Her daughter has severe issues. She can barely walk.. she will always need help. They too did not have the energy to sue.. it can be very difficult on a family.


and how many cases of diptheria were there last year?
and how effective is the pertussis shot?
and really, how many cases of Tetanus are there especially intersting since most people in the united states are not current on their tetanus shots.

And measles..mumps and rubella...these are childhood diseases and when I was a child we had them. And we missed a week of school. The end.

The hype out there in the world and of course Dr. Fleas and his group.. sigh... well, if you are reading this thread and you are new to the discussion..please research this stuff before you say yes.
And just because you like your doctor does not mean he is all knowing.

talk to Jen, talk to my co-worker friend, talk to the mom at my son's school.

And if you must know.. talk to those people who lost their children to SIDS I strongly believe they are all victims of vaccines....
there used to be a thread here which discussed it..but it was closed because of some unfortunate posters. sigh.

also.... there is a money component...this link will help explain:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=111257


Jenn's story will not be forgotten.

[LongIsland]

Originally Posted by Individuation

I wanted the opinion of an ethical pediatrician as to whether Marissa's case sounded like a medical syndrome I had heard of--unrelated to vaccines.

You asked for an opinion from a doctor who says this:

"There is no credible evidence that vaccines cause any negative neurodevelopmental outcome whatsoever."


. . . and he links up "Autism Diva."

His website screams: By creating and maintaining this website, I subconsciously need to make myself feel better for literally shooting up thousands of children into autism and other conditions.

Why would you even bring this idiot into this thread?

[Plummeting]

Originally Posted by Individuation

Dr. Flea is a good pediatrician. He's very active in decreasing routine antibiotic use for ear infections, and against the general medicalizing of childhood. His blog is interesting and informative.

That he is a "good pediatrician" is your opinion. I know lots of people who are against the routine administration of abx, but that doesn't mean they know jack squat about vaccines. Anyone who states, "There is no credible evidence that vaccines cause any negative neurodevelopmental outcome whatsoever," is living in fantasyland at best and purposefully misleading others at worst. Either way, anyone who says that is certainly not trustworthy and certainly not a "good" doctor.

I offered a link to Dr. Flea's blog to allow those vacillating on the vaccine issue to see another side. I also felt that barefoot mama should know that the story had gone a bit more public than she might be aware of.

You should've done that on a different thread, then. How thoughtless, heartless and insensitive to post a link to THAT on a thread like this. That is inexcusable. Hopefully you usually exhibit more concern for others' feelings than you have shown here.

[Scattershoot]

The only "good pediatrician" is the one who stays 10 miles away from my family. In my opinion, "good pediatrician" is an oxymoron.

To say, "There is no credible evidence that vaccines cause any negative neurodevelopmental outcome whatsoever," is as far as I needed to go with this "ethical" doctor.

All those years of medical school, thousands of hours of being told what to know and what to see, and all he can come up with are ad hominem attacks and simple-minded opinions. Not very impressive.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Marissa, first let me say I'd read your story, but had not replied to this thread as it upset me greatly, because when I read your story, all the others before,.. the parents who have come to me, and the cases I've fought and won, and fought and lost, flood back. So one case, isn't one case to me, its another marble on the mountain IFKWIM.

Originally Posted by Individuation

I emailed this story, and some concerns about it, to a pediatrician blogger who I've found to be ethical and even-handed. He has posted about it on his blog, Flea.

Most of the posters here will not agree with what he says, be forewarned.

Individuation, I'm glad you did this, but not for the reasons you state.

Originally Posted by Individuation

Originally, I did not send Dr. Flea a link to Marissa's story. Instead, I recapped the story as a hypothetical situation (no names used or links provided), and asked him a medical question. I wanted the opinion of an ethical pediatrician as to whether Marissa's case sounded like a medical syndrome I had heard of--unrelated to vaccines.

So why didn't you come back here, and ask your questions first? I'm amazed that you couldn't do that, but felt the "need" to scuttle elsewhere for reassurance

I was concerned for other reasons. He emailed me back asking if I was referring to the "Lavendar Essence" blog, and to Marissa's story.

Dr. Flea is a good pediatrician.

So concerned that you didn't take it up with Marissa's mother first. Right then.

Don't all paediatricians consider themselves "good" and doesn't every paediatrician have devotees who would say they are the greatest? I mean, I'm sure paediatrician Offit has more parents and paediatricians wanting to tie his shoelaces than anyone else around. Does that mean that he's actually a good paediatrician, who would respect any views held by those here who don't vaccnate?

He's very active in decreasing routine antibiotic use for ear infections, and against the general medicalizing of childhood. His blog is interesting and informative.

:yawn So is quackwatch, and other anti-antivaccine sites. I go there just for a laugh sometimes. Until I remember that these otherwise ordinary people, who've suddently become morons on one topic, really believe themselves.

This is a difficult situation.

Please define "This". And also state why its difficult. DO you mean it was difficult for you to hear/swallow/read and you found the story to be fraudulent, biased, and myopic? Exactly how is this a difficult situation, other than the fact its not something you want to make an effort to understand?

Marissa's story has been made public--both here, and on barefoot mama's blog. This may invite comments that are not as supportive as those that would be made by family and friends. However, a choice was made to put the story out there. For my part, I (a stranger) read the story, had a (non-vaccine-related) concern, and asked a doctor a question. He apparently followed up, found the information posted online, and wrote his own opinion on his blog. Nothing wrong has been done here. No provacy has been violated.

Of course not.

The fact that you feel the need to justify your actions so comprehensively is fascinating.

I offered a link to Dr. Flea's blog to allow those vacillating on the vaccine issue to see another side.

And of course, because you are provaccine, no doubt you feel that Dr Flea's story to be the more persuasive even though he appears to be too stupid to read accurately, and described stuff that didn't happen?

I also felt that barefoot mama should know that the story had gone a bit more public than she might be aware of.

correction.....

Barefoot mama, I am again very sorry for your loss and send good wishes for the health and safety of all of your other children.

Somehow that doesn't quite read the way I'd like it to...


Now, Marissa. You are the more important one here. Individuation's honourable altruism has done you a good turn.

Originally Posted by barefoot mama

May I also add that I do not appreciate the "doctor" tearing me apart simply because I practice and believe in alternative medicine? In my mind, that gives him even less credibility.

But it also gives you a good benchmark. You can easily judge a paediatricians worth, because the minute they come up with crap like that, you know that because they feel inadequate to disprove the story, they will shoot the messenger. Which should warn any parent never to go to that doctor, unless they have no option.

Can you tell I'm just a little : ?

You will all have to forgive me

No need. Having done more cases in my life than perspiration above, I've met so many paediatricians who behave like this, that I know them well. They deserve all the reprimands they will attract.

Originally Posted by barefoot mama

OK, I know I'm being a PITA, but is the story not clear? Flea seems to think Marissa's brain swelled during an "uncontrolled seizure". I thought I was clear that she died in her sleep?

It's really simple. Paediatricians do this all the time. Both in written specialist reports and in the doc. And if you go for that case, you should get Dr Flea in the dock and get your lawyer to run over him. If he has any trouble, I'll give him a hand.

Was it also not clear that she did not seize during fevers? He seems to blame the fever, which never existed during 98% of her seizures, and not with the first one.

Now here's a good lesson for you. I've NEVER met a doctor who gets things right, by listening, or even reading.

I've had situations where I've typed things up, and given it to them, written, on a plate, and they still get it wrong. But at least if you give it to them in writing, and they stuff up, you simply put the bit of paper in your left hand, your right hand behind their head, and rub their faces in it. (actually, just do it metaphorically, but you know what I mean) They get really really embarrassed. Better still do it in court. And if its a jury trial, you can just about guarantee that within a year, they won't be in practice, because the jury, and public gallery will let everyone know that X paediatrician can't read, and therefore can't be trusted.

But unfortunately, this is another reason why the NVIC act was enacted. It is a closed court, and unfortunately, the chances for doctors to be shown up this way are now extremely limited. But then, the NVIC act wasn't about getting justice for parents. It was about protecting the manufacturers and doctors from accountability for lousy vaccines, and just such 'assessment' mistakes as these.

Hey~ this is good practice for dealing with umm........uninformed people when I sue them!

Yes, it is, and that's why I'm glad that miss uninspired up there took her concerns to such an eminent mistakologist.

I'm over my anger (well, that experience of it anyway) and now I am going to say that I do not care what this person thinks or says. People like this want me to shut up in case someone actually listens.

You will feel this anger many times, before you get to the end of this road. Dr Flea won't be the last person to pontificate, elucidate, and wear halos on the establishment's behalf. So gird your loins, because one of the reasons that many parents stop legal action is when the fleas of this world get on top of them emotionally, and wear them down. At the same time, you have to pace yourself, so that you just flick the fleas off.

And may I say that he has very appropriately named himself, if you think about fleas
(trying not to violate the UA)

Alright, I'm done now.

I'm sure you will find a lot more inventive nick-names or acronyms before your journey is finished.

I could write a book about some of the stuff that happened in cases... well, actually I couldn't. Because the vaccine world, and that of the USA is so litigious, there isn't a word of it that wouldn't attract action by someone, because while its okay to write fiction, the truth is what really hurts.

The only way you could do it, is write fiction and then everyone would go : wipes sweat Isn't it great that's only fiction

[Fyrestorm]

On a much more cheerful note...

A mama who was "concerned" about vaccines read Marissa's story through my post (thank you Barefootmama). She e-mailed me with vaccine questions and I gace her some basic info and sent her here.

She is now a member here and has decided to at least delay until she has had time to research this whole issue.

Marissa's story has done some good. One (that I know of) has heard and listened. May many more follow!!

I hope this helps give you some solace Barefootmama...

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by Plummeting

Anyone who states, "There is no credible evidence that vaccines cause any negative neurodevelopmental outcome whatsoever," is living in fantasyland at best and purposefully misleading others at worst. Either way, anyone who says that is certainly not trustworthy and certainly not a "good" doctor.

Let us be charitable shall we?

Anyone who says that there is no credible evidence... etc... is basically saying that a whole swathe of their own medical literature is a load of bollocks. . Of course, you could argue then... what does that say about the rest of their medical literature?

Quite right too. If medical knowledge only has a half life of 5 years, the question isn't which half is wrong. The question is, "What is the worth of the majority of it?"

You should've done that on a different thread, then. How thoughtless, heartless and insensitive to post a link to THAT on a thread like this. That is inexcusable. Hopefully you usually exhibit more concern for others' feelings than you have shown here.

Oh no, I disagree . I love it when people do this.

It's almost as educative as when loons swim into the lake.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by LongIsland

You asked for an opinion from a doctor who says this:

"There is no credible evidence that vaccines cause any negative neurodevelopmental outcome whatsoever."


. . . and he links up "Autism Diva."

Yes, well, I've had plenty of experience with her on BMJ. Naturally, she just doesn't get it. After all, how can someone who is autistic possibly articulate the difference between someone who is not autistic and herself? How can she possibly articulate what it is she has missed when she's never experienced it?

And the funniest thing is to "watch" her talking with people who once were autistic, and are now NOT autistic, and how she still considers herself the only authority. She cannot listen to people who've been both, since to her that concept is impossible. Only those stuck in impossibility, cannot conceive any alternative. Why Dr Flea cannot see that, is obvious. It suits him to defer to someone who cannot possibly be an authority on non-autism but who thinks she is. The irony is luscious. But its only a concept that an ex-autistic non-autistic would ever be able to understand, since recovered autistics know what she is missing, and she doesn't and can't.

His website screams: By creating and maintaining this website, I subconsciously need to make myself feel better for literally shooting up thousands of children into autism and other conditions.

Why would you even bring this idiot into this thread?

Hey.... its great Long Island. One more doctor for the blacklist. .

Look at the positives of it. A whole lot of people now know one more doctor to avoid like the plague.

[barefoot mama]

MT~ thank you SO very much for your thoughtful reply. You remind me once again how important it is to make my voice heard regardless of the fact that they would rather I did not draw attention to the potential side effects of vaccines.

Yours is a post I will read again and again.

[barefoot mama]

I am so happy to read that there are several mamas who are further investigating after hearing Marissa's story. Quite honestly, I would rather have my child than the ability to help others in this way, but the past can not be undone and I will do the best I can with the situation I have. I'm sure Marissa would want me to share her story.

[LeslieB]

I'm sorry for your loss. I was in tears reading your story.

Dealing with people like "Dr. Flea" will make your voice stronger, mama. Thank you for sharing Marissa's story.

[Emilie]

MT. You are a treasure.

Shame on any Dr. out there who would treat a mother like this after the death of a child. Yes. Vaccine injury does not discriminate- don't you think what happens is that women who are willing to " ask questions" tend to be women who are willing to ASK questions and do things against the mainstream? That is why it is so easy to "discredit us" we are the "bitches and lunatics" Who have babies at home and all sorts of other crazy things?

Marissa's story is making a change. People will read it. First hand stories are what made me think twice about vaccinating. They are what keeps me sustained in my decision also to NOT VACCINATE.
If mothers were not telling their children's stories we would not be here at all NOT vaxxing.

Hugs mama. You are strong. We are here to support you.

[Mamm2]

I am so sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing your story. I am sure your story has saved many babies...many people lurk and never post.

I am sure your story has made people consider researching vaccines. Once people start researching they will not vaccinate or at the very least delay.

My prayers are with you.