Radical unschoolers and rude kids - Page 8

[chfriend]

I'm so glad I'm not the only one. Seriously, I'll be standing there sputtering and she'll just calmly show me the way.

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by chfriend

I'm so glad I'm not the only one. Seriously, I'll be standing there sputtering and she'll just calmly show me the way.

I wish my daughter were that way. Her solutions are inevitably Ramona-centered and carefully constructed to give her the best deal. For example, in the cookie situation, her solution would be along the lines of, "I'll eat the cookie today AND eat the cookie tomorrow because I like cookies more than you do" or "I'll eat all the cookies because I am a kid and you should let me have my way!"

It's not that we don't model parity in decision making. I just think kids have different personalities, and the fact that she is only 4 might play into it too.

My youngest doesn't yet seem to understand negotiation and my oldest is so used to being told what to do at all times in the orphanage that she is unable/unwilling to make decisions for herself.

Namaste!

[chfriend]

dharmamama that was my dd to a tee when she was 4! And she was the poster child for the "explosive child." (Turns out she's sensitive to wheat.)

At that time, I'd have just given her the cookie because she was little ...now she does the same thing for her 2 year old sister.

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by chfriend

At that time, I'd have just given her the cookie because she was little

Oh, absolutely. And she is right that she likes cookies more than I do. I just always chuckle when I hear people say that if you give kids a chance to come up with a fair solution, they will, because at least with my kid, I know better.

But then again, I am not complaining, because my daughter is smart, highly verbal, and not afraid to go for what she wants.

Namaste!

[Brigianna]

I don't really know any radical unschoolers irl, but I do see quite a bit of "unparenting" by school/daycare-using parents whose justification is "they learn that at school." Because they aren't around their kids all day, they can surrender responsibility for their kids' discipline and guidance (of course there are many good parents who use school, too). Although I don't doubt there are unparenting unschoolers as well.

I don't particularly agree with the way radically unschooling is often interpreted, even though we are at least borderline radical unschoolers, with no curriculum, no punishments, only one rule (no hurting someone else), and as little coercion as possible. But I think much of what is advocated in the name of non-coercion is dishonest, so I'm uncomfortable with it. I'm sure, however, that it works very well for some families.

[Nousername]

Some insiders say that expensive private schools can be even worse than public when it comes to students' behavior. Some busy two-income parents think that, since they are paying so much for tuition, the school should be doing the parenting (making up for the stuff that should be happening after school) as well.

Originally Posted by Brigianna

I don't really know any radical unschoolers irl, but I do see quite a bit of "unparenting" by school/daycare-using parents whose justification is "they learn that at school." Because they aren't around their kids all day, they can surrender responsibility for their kids' discipline and guidance (of course there are many good parents who use school, too). Although I don't doubt there are unparenting unschoolers as well.

I don't particularly agree with the way radically unschooling is often interpreted, even though we are at least borderline radical unschoolers, with no curriculum, no punishments, only one rule (no hurting someone else), and as little coercion as possible. But I think much of what is advocated in the name of non-coercion is dishonest, so I'm uncomfortable with it. I'm sure, however, that it works very well for some families.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Dar

Again, the black and white "I only want this cookie" thing just doesn't happen much with children raised this way.

agreed

We are neither radical unschoolers nor totally into TCS, but have gone down those paths quite far (further than any other families we know IRL) and the iconic "there is only 1 thing in the universe that we want so someone isn't going to get want they want" thing doesn't come up. Both my kids believe we live in an abundant universe and that there are always multiple solutions. Because we are always mellow with them, they have developed the ability to be mellow with each other, with us, and with their friends.

However, my older DD is 10 and my younger DD is nearly 9. We first became interested in TCS when they were 3 and 4. Honestly, it didn't work then. These principles were too difficult with closely spaced children who were quite young. Sometimes I just broke the cookie in half and told them to share.

I think there is tremendous value in exploring these ideas and moving our families toward them. One of the goals of parenting (no matter how you label your "style") is to raise kids who eventually can make good decisions on their own. None the less, it isn't a black and white issue for me. I think that as we trust our kids will little decisions and help them brain storm for creative solutions, they become better at those skills. As they develop those skills -- and mature -- they are able to make bigger and bigger decisions and creativly brain storm. It's an upward spiral.

[momofcutie]

OK, I'm way late for this discussion, but I'm so glad the OP brought this up! I've felt this way about the rude behavior of unschooled kids too, but was afraid to mention it on this message board because there are so many unschoolers here. : You guys did a great job of being civil!

Originally Posted by 2tadpoles

Learning without a curriculum doesn't have anything to do with disregarding common courtesy. I seriously wish that people would stop mixing the two philosophies.

I have a friend who lets her kids get away with everything. They are 8, 6, and 2. She's a loving and nurturing mom, but she doesn't set limits. Her oldest daughter is...a brat. There's no other way to put it. She's defiant and rude and still bites other kids sometimes! But my friend says, 'I don't want to break her spirit!" She calls my son names like loser and dork, and then her mom defends it by saying she doesn't really know what the words mean. : WHATEVER!

I belong to two homeschooling groups. One is Christian and doesn't have many unschooling families. The other is an "inclusive" group that is mostly made up of unschooling families. I definitely notice a difference in the attitudes and behaviors of the kids. The lack of social skills and manners in the inclusive group kids is very obvious. I thought it was unschooling in general that led to this, but this thread has helped me see that it's more about unparenting than unschooling.

Very interesting thread!

[UnschoolingAmerica]

It amazes me that so many of you have such big Unschooling communities! We are the only Unschoolers in our area and we do not spend any time with any other Unschooling families except for the rare visit from Unschoolers we meet at conferences.

Any Unschoolers that I have met at Unschooling Conferences have been incredibly mature, respectful people and an absolute joy to be around!

Where the heck are the large groups and communities of Unschoolers all in one place?? I wanna move near one!!

~Peace & Love, Dayna

[Meg Murry.]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

nak

I'm totally fine with this kind of scenario under certain circumstances. If we're at the playground and ds asks to use their toy and they say that, no problem. But if we are invited over to their house, and the child decides that ds can't play with this and can't play with that, and won't share the toy he's playing with, then yeah, it's rude. Ds just stands there obviously hurt. He's even asked me "Why did he invite me over if he doesn't want to play?" Then there's the grabbing, the yelling for what they want. Yelling at my ds when they want their toy back. Grabbing from my 2yo. Appalling backtalk to their parents. Saying generally rude things to us. None of this is okay with us, and it is what we are encountering more often than not.

The reason I posted this in homeschooling is that it is seriously making me doubt our decision to homeschool. Ds begs every day to play with someone, and the only kids available during the day at his age are hs'ed kids.

I think this calls for natural consequences.

If there are kids whose parents, for whatever reasons, choose to allow them to disregard the rules of polite interaction with others, the natural consequence is that people will choose not to interact with them.

I find some of the behavior described here to be very rude -- behavior that, for me, goes far beyond frank or honest and into selfish and careless of others' feelings. I don't know whether this behavior is caused by unschooling, or whether a general attitude on the part of the parents is consistent with unschooling, or whether the two are merely coincidental.

Either way, I don't believe that all homeschooling will result in a rude, ill-mannered child; quite the reverse, I think. In the end, I believe children are far better socialized by their family than by random groups of children, but that's just my .02.

[momofcutie]

Originally Posted by Meg Murry.

I think this calls for natural consequences.

If there are kids whose parents, for whatever reasons, choose to allow them to disregard the rules of polite interaction with others, the natural consequence is that people will choose not to interact with them.

Ideally, that would be the case. Sometimes parents don't allow their kids to experience natural consequences though.

We went to the mall a few weeks ago, and my friend's above mentioned daughter was acting up and refusing to get on the elevator. (She'd been misbehaving most of our time at the mall.) My friend's other daughter asked if they could come to our house to play. I seriously didn't want the oldest daughter to come over. I'd had enough of her. I thought I'd let her know that I didn't like her behavior-you know, natural consequences. I said to her mom, "Well, you can always have your husband come and pick up M and the rest of you can come over-since she's having a hard time." Apparently, M cried and my friend was mad at me. So I pretended I was just joking and apologized... I wimped out.

Later, I realized that her mom stopped her from experiencing the natural consequences of her behavior. I think her daughter needs some social disapproval when she acts like a 3 year old! This is such a big problem for me that I think I need my own thread on how to deal with it.

[cheery]

my daughter is brilliant at finding solutions. She's just very flexible. I get sitff and stuck sometimes and so does my son.

My daughter routinely figures out what we all should do when there is a conflict. She rocks!

'

same here ... in fact she will often share (things / space / time /whatever) even without being asked, and sometimes when the rest of us had not even realised that was an option. will try to remember a concrete example that is not too long a story and add it here.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa

I should start most of my posts with "What Dar said...."

:

Pat

[mamarhu]

Originally Posted by WuWei

:

Pat

me too - can we create a "What Dar said" sticky?

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by momofcutie

Ideally, that would be the case. Sometimes parents don't allow their kids to experience natural consequences though.

We went to the mall a few weeks ago, and my friend's above mentioned daughter was acting up and refusing to get on the elevator. (She'd been misbehaving most of our time at the mall.) My friend's other daughter asked if they could come to our house to play. I seriously didn't want the oldest daughter to come over. I'd had enough of her. I thought I'd let her know that I didn't like her behavior-you know, natural consequences. I said to her mom, "Well, you can always have your husband come and pick up M and the rest of you can come over-since she's having a hard time." Apparently, M cried and my friend was mad at me. So I pretended I was just joking and apologized... I wimped out.

Later, I realized that her mom stopped her from experiencing the natural consequences of her behavior. I think her daughter needs some social disapproval when she acts like a 3 year old! This is such a big problem for me that I think I need my own thread on how to deal with it.

The kid you were suggesting excluding was how old?

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by momofcutie

I have a friend who lets her kids get away with everything. They are 8, 6, and 2. She's a loving and nurturing mom, but she doesn't set limits. Her oldest daughter is...a brat.

I think she is referring to this 8 y/o from her previous post.

[chfriend]

Got it. I think if I were the mom with the crying 8 year old that my "friend" considered a "brat," the "natural consequence" would be that I'd see that friend again when my kids were grown.

[RedWine]

Originally Posted by chfriend

Got it. I think if I were the mom with the crying 8 year old that my "friend" considered a "brat," the "natural consequence" would be that I'd see that friend again when my kids were grown.

Or maybe it could be a lesson on how to treat people? People don't want you around if you are not kind. Perhaps this child needs to learn that..?

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by RedWine

Or maybe it could be a lesson on how to treat people? People don't want you around if you are not kind. Perhaps this child needs to learn that..?

I guess that's my point. momofcutie made a very unkind suggestion to a kid having a hard time. People don't necessarily want to be around that, so I think I'd probably distance myself in the friendship if someone thought that was a productive way to handle it.

[2tadpoles]

Originally Posted by chfriend

Got it. I think if I were the mom with the crying 8 year old that my "friend" considered a "brat," the "natural consequence" would be that I'd see that friend again when my kids were grown.

Just because someone is your friend doesn't mean they have to agree with/approve of everything in your life. I've had friends whose spouses were jerks. I've had friends whose kids were just plain obnoxious.

I've had friends who have acted like jackasses on occasion, themselves.

Sometimes I hold my tongue. Sometimes I speak up. I wouldn't ever tell my friend that her kid is a "brat," but I would definitely let her know that her child's behavior bothers me, and why.

And if she chose to sever the friendship because of that, then I don't think she was ever really a friend to begin with. I don't need fair-weather friends, and so it wouldn't be my loss.