Radical unschoolers and rude kids - Page 3

[UUMom]

Interesting stuff.

Maybe the formally 'neglectful' parents are now hiding behind a nearly socially acceptable label now? It's sure not about curricula or lack there of.

I also see some folks who think no guidance is what people talk about when they talk about things like unschooling or free children etc. I have recently met young parents who are struggling trying to figure out whether gently holding a child's hand when the child is whacking them in the face is 'respectful' or not, fi. Many people do think it's damaging to help a toddler brush teeth, or carry them through a dangerous parking lot while the child is fussing to get down and run.

It's intersting, and I hestitate to say much (irl) unless specifically asked.

I know there is a middle place. It's not about crushing a child's soul Vs not helping a child and those around him be safe from his own actions.

[oldcrunchymom]

I do think there's a new generation of parents who can't discern the line between the gentle parenting that is promoted these days and NO parenting. I know a couple families like this and the kids run wild. One family has the kids in school and in the other the kids are too young to be officially schooled/homeschooled.

The rudest, wildest family of homeschoolers I've met were fundamentalist Christian school-at-homers. So again, I think it's the parenting more than the educational (or other) beliefs that come into play here. My daughter has some unschooled/very relaxed homeschooled friends who are very polite.

[UUMom]

-- My daughter has some unschooled/very relaxed homeschooled friends who are very polite.--

Ditto here. We are lucky in that most of the groups' children are super-kind.

Heck, even my own duo of schooled kids are nice. :

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by UUMom

Heck, even my own duo of schooled kids are nice. :

My kids are really nice, too, when they are in public. It's at home that they sometimes horrify me and leave me

I guess that's true of lots of kids, though.



Namaste!

[Nousername]

Re. "edgy" kids: I parted ways for awhile with a friend who was teaching her son to hit (she was afraid he might be bullied) when I was teaching my son to turn the other cheek (and this was when they were 3!). Years later, we ran into them again when they tried out homeschooling and, perhaps not surprisingly, her son became a bully--at least emotionally--to my son and some others in our group.

But aside from rough or mean children, I run into the problem of some parents being too "hands-off" with their youngsters when they are in other peoples' homes. Parents who are on top of things with their young children--making sure they behave politely, don't run into everyone's bedrooms without making sure it's okay with the host, don't run around the house eating messy snacks (unless the host says it's okay), don't bang on the piano or jump on the furniture (unless the host says it's okay), don't do dangerous stunts that make the host nervous that the children will hurt themselves, etc., are much more comfortable people to have over than are those who let their kids run loose from the moment they enter the home. I'm amazed at how many people assume that their laid-back house rules should apply in other people's homes, or who sit back, talking with other parents and letting the host repeatedly enforce rules ("no diving off the couch, please") instead of intervening and reminding their children themselves. We hosted lots of playgroups in the past, but this kind of behavior and lack of supervision (and lack of help, despite giving hints, with cleanup afterwards) led us to greatly limit our hosting. Even my kids were not enjoying the wild behavior of some of the kids. It seems like common sense to me--to be mindful and respectful of the host's house rules--yet some groups seem to exude the attitude that one is "uptight" if one has rules for such behavior in the home. Anyone else struggle with this?

Originally Posted by UUMom

I don't know. I struggle with something similar. Most of the families in our hsing group are lovely. Most are super -relaxed, in the unschooler category, but with families who are making suggestions to their kids. The nicest kids, not robots or anything, by any stretch, are the ones I think of as 'relaxed' hsers.

The free ones-- with no rules, no anything, seem to have more trouble getting along with other kids, although that's not correct, really. They more have no patience with playing with other kids.

Yet I wouldn't label the more difficult children as 'unschoolers', I would more lable their parents as "This is my kid, take it or leave it', and much beyond "I would not like to share this toy with you right now'.

I really don't know what the differences are...curriculm -wise. I've met a couple of families who want their kids to be 'edgy'. I don't know if that's the word...but kids a little mean, for lack of a better description. I would suspect these children might have a handle up on the 'more polite' kids. The world is a rough place, and I think a lot of parents are trying to get their kids to survive in that?

I hesitated to post this. But I do see some of this, and I am not sure what to make of it. I do not tend to think of unschooled children as rude at all...but there is another element that I would more call 'radical free- of -anything'. It's not about education or respect of the child. It's like a new sub group that is yet to be named. lol

But Ocean Baby, maybe I;m crazy with you, but I have absolutely seen this 'meaness' in hsed kids. In the past you could count on the hser kids to always be kind and empathic to each other, but I am not seeing that 100% anymore, and there are a couple of families we actively avoid. And it's not because of long hair or shorts in the snow, or rotted baby teeth or anything.

[PumpkinSeeds]

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Originally Posted by Nousername

I run into the problem of some parents being too "hands-off" with their youngsters when they are in other peoples' homes. I'm amazed at how many people assume that their laid-back house rules should apply in other people's homes, or who sit back, talking with other parents and letting the host repeatedly enforce rules Anyone else struggle with this?

[PumpkinSeeds]

YES! I just don't understand it.

Originally Posted by Nousername

yet some groups seem to exude the attitude that one is "uptight" if one has rules for such behavior in the home.

[darien]

Originally Posted by Nousername

But aside from rough or mean children, I run into the problem of some parents being too "hands-off" with their youngsters when they are in other peoples' homes. Parents who are on top of things with their young children--making sure they behave politely, don't run into everyone's bedrooms without making sure it's okay with the host, don't run around the house eating messy snacks (unless the host says it's okay), don't bang on the piano or jump on the furniture (unless the host says it's okay), don't do dangerous stunts that make the host nervous that the children will hurt themselves, etc., are much more comfortable people to have over than are those who let their kids run loose from the moment they enter the home. I'm amazed at how many people assume that their laid-back house rules should apply in other people's homes, or who sit back, talking with other parents and letting the host repeatedly enforce rules ("no diving off the couch, please") instead of intervening and reminding their children themselves. We hosted lots of playgroups in the past, but this kind of behavior and lack of supervision (and lack of help, despite giving hints, with cleanup afterwards) led us to greatly limit our hosting. Even my kids were not enjoying the wild behavior of some of the kids. It seems like common sense to me--to be mindful and respectful of the host's house rules--yet some groups seem to exude the attitude that one is "uptight" if one has rules for such behavior in the home. Anyone else struggle with this?

I struggle with that! We're unschoolers, but I do NOT "unparent." I think it's very important for kids (or adults!) to treat others' feelings, bodies, and possessions respectfully.

My kids do well with this (mostly ), but don't always receive the same consideration from others. :

It's hard to explain to a little kid why they shouldn't cut in line or shove others off the slide, when the kids who ARE doing it seem to be having more fun.

My older ds had a friend (notice the past tense? ) whose mom ALWAYS just looked on benevolently, no matter what her kids were doing. After a playdate at our house, ds would be left to clean up tons of toys, there would be food mess all over the house, at least one thing would be broken. Still, I preferred to have them play at our house, because their house was like Lord of the Flies.

Despite that, I was ok with this family as long as ds' friend treated him decently. Unfortunately, that kept changing for the worse, and ds decided to let the friendship "die" (Thank goodness!).

[UnschoolingAmerica]

I feel that issues such as this surrounding Unschooling and Peaceful, Respectful Parenting along with hands-off type parenting, is very often that individual family's place in their journey or education about this type of life.

I also think that maybe these parents really want to be Unschoolers and/or Radical Unschoolers for various reasons and so they take on the label for the life they strive for.

The first step for many of us is realizing what we don't want to do as parents. For example having rules. Rules precede punishment and we just do not believe personally that it is respectful or kind to live with rules and punishments.

I think many people on this path get that part. They say, "ok, no rules then!", but they haven't quite understood, or made it to the point most of us are where you realize that something else has to then be in place of rules and punishments, and that is being there, among many other things.

There are many tools I have added to my parenting toolbox after I abolished the things that I didn't want anymore, such as rules and punishments. But that was only part of the process.

Maybe looking at it like, some parents are only "half-way" here, or don't know there is further to go or whatever might be helpful in understanding that it takes time and a great effort on the part of the parents to fully understand their role in a peaceful, respectful home. Think of it like they just maybe do not know all that you know yet about this wonderful life. I wouldn't personally spend time with a rude, mean family. In my experience, if the kids are rude the parents are too.

So, I try to look at it respectfully that some of these "hands-off" parents are early in their journey's to Unschooling/Radical Unschooling/Peaceful Parenting. Looking back, I probably parented pretty hands off for maybe a year or so before I really understood our roles with our children as their partners instead of their trainers.

Getting to this place in life is such a process.

~Peace & Love, Dayna

[Ruthla]

Originally Posted by Soundhunter

Interestingly enough Karen, my child isn't unschooled, but I think I might unschool her BECAUSE she is prone to such behavior. Emma is a very loud boisterous kid who is very very hyper, she really cannot sit still. She is 3. She would require sedatives to stop moving in many circumstances, though she's getting a bit better with age.

I'm wondering if your child would benefit from the Feingold Program or something similar- her inability to stop moving might be a physical reaction to something in her diet or environment.

Originally Posted by lckrause

I do think there's a new generation of parents who can't discern the line between the gentle parenting that is promoted these days and NO parenting.

I have to wonder if this is a byproduct of some of the "no spanking" education going on. Do people equate spanking with discipline and don't know how to set limits any other way?

[BetsyNY]

Wow, so rules are bad now too? What do you give in place of rules?

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by Dar

I wonder if some of the unschooling groups on the internet are creating the trend... because you're right, I didn't notice people like this 7 or 8 years ago, either online or in person, but I do see a lot of it online now. Not here, of course, cause we're cool like that... but other places.

Dar

We are absolutely the most cool.

[UnschoolingAmerica]

Betsy, lol, you sound like I did years ago!

Maybe start here with understanding where I am coming from:
http://sandradodd.com/rules

~Peace & Love, Dayna

[Dar]

Originally Posted by BetsyNY

Wow, so rules are bad now too? What do you give in place of rules?

I don't know if rules are "bad". per se, but they don't seem to fit into our way of life much. We focus more on values... it's important to be kind, and thoughtful, and loving. It's important to be aware of your actions and the implications of them. Stuff like that. One can't really create a "rule" about thoughtfulness - well, I guess you can, because I've seen it in some schools, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to legislate it. To me, though, it makes more sense to share with my child that this is something I value, and then to act in ways that reflect that.

Dar

[UUMom]

Unschoolma wrote: "...or to watch a mature-ish themed movie when they are 7 is to blame."

Which made me think of my 14 yr old dd who at first wanted to watch a cool History Channel DVD on The Black Plague, but once into it moaned, "You should have told me I might too young to want to watch this horrible show!". Of course we shut it off... but sometimes I just don't understand people. lol Even my own.

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by Dar

I don't know if rules are "bad". per se, but they don't seem to fit into our way of life much. We focus more on values...

Yep. That's us too. We are more concerned with what we value rather than what some rule is telling us we must do because someone else "said so". Kindness, respect, modeling good stuff...that's what it's about for me.

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by UUMom

Which made me think of my 14 yr old dd who at first wanted to watch a cool History Channel DVD on The Black Plague, but once into it moaned, "You should have told me I might too young to want to watch this horrible show!". Of course we shut it off... but sometimes I just don't understand people. lol Even my own.

Ive had those "who are these people?!" moments too.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by Dar

I don't know if rules are "bad". per se, but they don't seem to fit into our way of life much. We focus more on values... it's important to be kind, and thoughtful, and loving. It's important to be aware of your actions and the implications of them. Stuff like that. One can't really create a "rule" about thoughtfulness - well, I guess you can, because I've seen it in some schools, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to legislate it. To me, though, it makes more sense to share with my child that this is something I value, and then to act in ways that reflect that.

Dar

i think we sometimes do freak people out when we talk about how we don't have 'rules'. It sounds like a free-for-all, when it's absolutely not. Maybe we just don't explain well enough what we mean.

Like, how come I've never had bedtime rules, but the children go to bed when they are tired (and for three of mine, that means they fall alseep very early!). How did we get from infancy to now without 'rules'.

It's hard to describe how one created an atmosphere of calm in the evening way back when (I'm thinking of Meg, of course) that didn't inlude rules, but did include watching the signs of a child who was ready. Of course there was some frustration at times on our parts (only because we adults are so exhausted fromt he day and the knowledge that the children would probably wake several times in the night to nurse for years and years...;-))

I keep trying to figure out how to better explain what 'no rules' means to people just starting on the journey.

However, I do separate the struggling with those who are so radical with...I don't know what-- lol- (whatever it is we are trying to describe) that they see lowering some of the evening lights as being cruel to a child. Is it better to wait until the child is overextended, overstimulated and screamig with frustration before the lights are lowered? I mean, these are areas I've heard people wonder about.

These kinds of topics are not so easy to discuss. I know I am always wanting to honor where the parent is on the journey, but I often wonder if they are on a journey of any kid. Did they simply decide to that it's OK to let their child wack them or others, or that's it perfectly normal for a kid to fall asleep every night after a screaming fit when they finally give up the ghost of the day, as opposed to being gently parented to sleep, which some might see as 'manipulating' the child.

I know I am rambling, but this is something on my mind that I haven't quite worked out yet. I am just glad Boatbaby had the courage to open a dialogue about it.

PS I admit this: I used to very strong in my thoughts about 'age appropriate' films and other scary/violent things for wee ones. I've grown more relaxed as the years have gone by, although I will be honest and say Grand Theft Auto is probably always going to be beyond my comfort zone-- even for adults. lol That's just a little too real for me.

[UUMom]

Ruth wrote: "I have to wonder if this is a byproduct of some of the "no spanking" education going on. Do people equate spanking with discipline and don't know how to set limits..."

I am not sure. My oldest is nearly 18, and even back in the dark ages when I was pregnant with him, LLL was always talking about gentle parenting and respecting the child. No spanking attitudes was standard among the people I knew in LLL for all those years. Nobody I knew in LLL spanked. But there was that other something... that crazy thing LLL called/calls gentle guidance.

Maybe people are thinking no spanking is new fangled or something and don't know where to go irl for guidance? I don't remember having any trouble finding gentle no spanking people, info about not circing, info about homebirth (there were more hb midwives in my area in '89 than there are now, actually) and not vaxing etc-- whatever the radical ideas are/were. It might be those ideas aren't radical enough for the most radical? That there needs to be another level to distinquish oneself from the 80's and 90's radical parenting? Is an edgy kid the new radical?

I do know some people feel alone. I've BTDT. My 18 yr old was born at home, not circ'd, not vaxed, never spanked and wore wool biobottoms covers over his fitted cotton Bumpkins (pre hyena carts- my youngest did get all the cool wahm stuff. lol) . I am not sure if the world is smaller now, or bigger, or *what*. I always feel freaked when people say they have nobody to ask irl about these things. That is very scary. People feel alone, and only have pieces of the puzzle...maybe?

[BetsyNY]

OK, trying to understand here--what about rules about, like, needing an adult's permission before doing something? You might not call it a rule, but it's still something you want your kids to do...is this an issue of semantics?