Why don't we talk about money?

[chanibell]

I was just asking my friend this the other day. Why is it that people are so afriad to talk about money in this country? Esp debt. Did anyone see that episode of Oprah where the woman told her friends and family that she was X amt in debt and she said later some stopped speaking to her! Thats nuts. So why arent we honest with our children about money, our friends etc and outselves in many cases?

[fuller2]

I don't know. Maybe because we still have this old idea that our financial status somehow is connected to our virtue. Like, if God favored you, you wouldn't have money problems. (Or if you do have money, that it's a sign of God's blessing.)

Or the idea that your financial situation is all your own fault. (We have always wanted to punish the poor for being poor.) Even if it's medical bills or something--hey, you should have eaten more spinach, right? Then you wouldn't have gotten sick!

In this society it's everyone for themselves--we have so little sense of community, are so divided by class and race and even little things like what music you like, what toothpaste you use...There is no sense that we are all in this together. Just competition with one another, blaming people when they have bad luck, or looking down our noses at people with a lot of debt for whatever reason.

I also think the standard to which everyone thinks they have to live is ridiculously high. (Remember back when houses only had 1 bathroom?) We all are led to believe by marketers and TV shows that everyone else has this very posh upper middle-class life--so we think we're failures if we too don't have a new computer, a stainless steel refrigerator, 35 outfits in our closet. But, of course, not all that many people can really afford this. It's shameful to not be able to afford it, especially if you grew up with it. So we just don't talk about it.

[melissel]

I agree. I was recently reading something about the sense of virtue associated with financial success in this country--that if you believe you've done something to deserve financial "success," then you're able to believe that others who are struggling financially have done something to deserve their "failure," and you can then feel yourself on moral high ground and allow yourself to ignore those who need help. I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist of it, and I found it so mindblowing. It just never occurred to me that way. Darn it, I wish I could remember what it was I was reading, because I'd really like to revisit it--if anyone recognizes it, can you let me know?

In addition, I think it's a mindset heavily cultivated by employers. It's in their best interest for employees to be closed-mouthed about their salaries and benefits. They don't want you and your colleagues discussing your compensation, because then you might discover you're not an even playing field and become disgruntled, and that's very bad for them.

[oldgirl,newtricks]

Why don't we talk about money? We do. Constantly, all of the time.

Now, that's different from how much money or debt I personally have. I don't feel like it's anyone's business.

[phatchristy]

Originally Posted by oldgirl,newtricks

Why don't we talk about money? We do. Constantly, all of the time.

Now, that's different from how much money or debt I personally have. I don't feel like it's anyone's business.

I am wondering if the OP meant why people don't talk about how to use money properly and the proper use of credit cards, etc. as well...right?

The whole credit card phenomenon has only recently been as it is today. My parents never used credit cards for anything...except later when they started flying. They told me, back in the day that you had to pay everything off. It wasn't 2%...or now 4% what they've recently changed it to. They didn't give you credit cards unless you were fully established.

Counteract that with my first college roommate. She was just 18 years old and had $4,500 of credit card debt. I remember getting all the credit card offers once I was in college...just insane. I didn't actually get a credit card until I got married and DH just added me to his.

I think like the pp said, money in this country is somehow tied to success and "virtue". And, people are defining their worth by how many and how nice their THINGS are...not by how much of a positive change they've made while they are on this planet.

Some of the people in my family are like that (sometimes can't believe we're related : ). They make as much money as they can only to spend it to keep up with the 'Jones'. Their homes are filled with junk (really expensive stuff, but they don't need it and there is so much that they don't really use so it is junk). People also seem to think that they are entitled to these things. Consumerism is such a product here in the US, moderation is out for most of the people in this country. Bigger is better, and more bigger stuff is even better...right? So, the average family is overextended with $9,000 credit card debt.

Personally, I'd rather focus on people first, then things. But, somedays I feel like I am in the minority. We're going to live as cheaply as we can without sacrificing necessities (and insurance) and I hope that some of the values we have pass on to the kids. I hope that instead of sucking the environment dry and adding to the problem that my kiddos somehow help protect our world.

Sigh, a mother's dream : ....

[mightymoo]

I think we don't talk about money and debt because money is such a status symbol in this country, those with debt in general don't want to admit it because so often (I'm not judging anyone here, but it is true of a large percentage) that debt was acquired by overspending and the consumerism our country embraces. It's really sad, (and I'm generalizing) so many people go around pretending they are rich. Looking rich is more important than being rich, since so often the things people do to put on the appearance of being rich puts them into debt. I just think then no one wants to talk about it because they aren't supposed to be in debt, aren't they rich? etc

I also think its a crime that our public school system makes sure we know obscure pieces of history or complex math, but yet has very little in the way of teaching our kids how to handle money, how to read a bank statement, how credit cards work and how they can get you in trouble, etc. If I had to choose between my daughter learning calculus, ancient history, or french, I would choose that any day of the week - its so important to understnad, yet its no where in the curriculum.

[snuggly mama]

Along the lines of what other posters have said, I agree that the mentality in this country (US) is that you should be able to "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" and that any financial concerns you have are inherently your own fault. There is no consideration for the fact that hard times befall even the most financially disciplined among us, and that catastrophic events can have a far-reaching impact on your personal finances. The sense I get is that everyone *should* be able to be financially stable -- even well-off -- if they just tried hard enough. It puts the burden back on the people who most need help and allows those who are in a position to create some financial change to turn their heads the other way.

It just seems like everyone is supposed to somehow be able to attain the upper-middle-class lifestyle regardless of circumstances.

[4evermom]

I remember a friend being horrified that I had CC debt. I said "Um, was I supposed to not buy food while pregnant and my dh wasn't working after severing a finger?":

[Redifer]

Originally Posted by snuggly mama

It just seems like everyone is supposed to somehow be able to attain the upper-middle-class lifestyle regardless of circumstances.

I think the bigger thing is that, everyone is expected to strive for that lifestyle. Instead of expecting reasonable money management, living within your means, and "cutting the fat" (5 bathroom homes for 2 people is a common thing here)... we expect people to WANT that consumer-driven lifestyle.

People are brought up with the idea that money = worth. Therefore, too many people spend too much time and money on "keeping up appearances": professional landscaping, over-decorating, etc. Because, just from the street, someone can estimate your "net worth" simply by looking at your yard.

Then enter in the interior of your home: you need granite counters and custom cabinetry, stainless steel commercial appliances, bathrooms you can play baseball in, etc. Once again, upon having visitors, your "net worth" is immediately appraised.

However, what isn't discussed is the facade of the whole thing. For example: how many American's TRULY own their homes/cars/furnishings? I know I drive my in-laws crazy with this line of thought: who owns your home, you or the bank? What about the couch? Your car? Your refrigerator?

Now, granted, I now mortgages are a neccessary evil (much as I dislike it), and understand that fact. However, is a half-million dollar home "neccessary"? How about an $80k car? Then, the "owners" of such things have the gall to look down on those without the lavish lifestyle they possess, without even understanding that the BANK owns everything they possess! How ironic is that?

[mightymoo]

Originally Posted by Redifer

Now, granted, I now mortgages are a neccessary evil (much as I dislike it), and understand that fact. However, is a half-million dollar home "neccessary"? How about an $80k car? Then, the "owners" of such things have the gall to look down on those without the lavish lifestyle they possess, without even understanding that the BANK owns everything they possess! How ironic is that?

This reminds me of a conversation I had once with my parents friends who have quite a bit of money - this is a guy who owns nothing but mercedes and that class of vehicle and I said something in the conversation about liking the corvettes and he said something like 'Oh anyone can own a corvette - you want a porshe because not everyone can afford them' or something like that (I think I was in college at the time! I just like the way the corvette's look!) This guy is all about status. He isn't living outside of his means, he does make a lot, but he also likes to show it big time.

I rather like the idea that my house doesn't reveal my financial status to anyone, when you have a little house, people are more likely to believe you when you say 'we can't afford something' when you really want to say 'we could afford it if it was a priority for us, but it isn't'. Personally I'd rather folks think I have less money than I do than that I have more. I think when people think you have money they then expect expensive gifts and all of a sudden something handmade is cheap rather than heartfelt, etc.

[oldgirl,newtricks]

"However, is a half-million dollar home "neccessary"?"

Yeah, it is if you live where I live and don't want to live in a dump. I'm reading a whole lot of assumptions here. Why do people automatically assume one is in major debt if you have nice things?

DH is an accountant and I'm a teacher by trade. Neither are known for their over the top salaries. We have made wise investments and invested heavily in our own education. Now, it's payoff time. The dh only works part-time and I'm not working. My best bud has not done that and is constantly referring to how "lucky" I am. I don 't see any luck here. She had the same chance to make different choices and couldn't see any farther than the nose on her face.

Don't assume that everyone who drives a Porsche is looking down their nose at someone else. My husband loves that car and really enjoys driving the thing! So what? It's paid for. The big house is "almost" paid for. Someone might say that since we are just an accountant and teacher we must be up to our eyeballs in debt. But they have no idea of our personal financial situation because we don't discuss it with people IRL. We really don't spend our time going around thinking, "Wow, they are driving a very small Mazda. Guess they can't do any better."

Our kids understand the concept of earning and saving money. The 12 yo mows yards during the summer and always puts most of it in savings. Even the 6 yo is out there hitting us up for a couple of bucks for shoveling the driveway. They get the concept that everything isn't handed to them. They also understand that we have the ability to do things like skiing, sports, dance lessons and all kinds of things I didn't get to do as a kid, so we spend money to buy experiences.

'If I had to choose between my daughter learning calculus, ancient history, or french, I would choose that any day of the week - its so important to understnad, yet its no where in the curriculum."

I would disagree. I can easily teach those real life concepts at home. French is beyond me. Every time we eat out we do a quick math lesson of how much we would end up spending if we did that every week. They quickly figure out that they would rather have the money to skiing lessons. They each have their own savings accounts and we go over the concept of compound interest. They help dh with his business and see check registers all of the time. They also know that a credit card is just a convenience, like a check, and is not to be used as a loan. They see the house payment, utility bills, insurance, all of the things that cost to have a comfortable lifestyle. All of these things are easily learned at home.

Really, I believe it's best not to make assumptions about people unless you know their personal situation.

[mightymoo]

Don't assume that everyone who drives a Porsche is looking down their nose at someone else. My husband loves that car and really enjoys driving the thing! So what? It's paid for.

I didn't. I was relaying a story about someone I know who thinks you should drive one soley because they are expensive, even though I was saying I like a less expensive car better.

I would disagree. I can easily teach those real life concepts at home. French is beyond me. Every time we eat out we do a quick math lesson of how much we would end up spending if we did that every week. They quickly figure out that they would rather have the money to skiing lessons. They each have their own savings accounts and we go over the concept of compound interest. They help dh with his business and see check registers all of the time. They also know that a credit card is just a convenience, like a check, and is not to be used as a loan. They see the house payment, utility bills, insurance, all of the things that cost to have a comfortable lifestyle. All of these things are easily learned at home.

For you maybe, but a large portion of americans live in debt. This tells me that they are not learning the lesson from their parents. I don't know what the public school system is for if not to teach kids to be functioning members of society. Money management is a big part of that. It seems riddiculous that they teach things that most americans do not need but yet omit this crucial thing they do.

[Redifer]

oldgirl,newtricks: Of course, there's exceptions to every rule. I was brought up in a wealthy, old money family. My inheritence from my grandmother's passing two months ago is a 70's stingray corvette. My family is not snobbish, nor are they in debt.

However, one must look at the general public and NOT, indeed, the exceptions to the rule. For example: your definition of "a dump" is also offensive to those of us who choose not to/cannot afford anything nicer. So, in trying to prove the fact that those with "more" are not snobbish, to me, you ruined that effect by saying those who cannot afford or choose not to buy a house in your neighborhood live in "dumps". That could have been worded better.

I have chosen to live without the aid of my family, their connections, and their money. As a 22 year old, this is not easy. I chose the route they themselves went, by earning what they could, saving where they could, and splurging where they could. However, search Buffalo, NY. Lowest mortgage rates in the country, but highest taxes when compared to lowest pay rates. The job my husband does now for $14/hr would earn him $36/hr a mere two hours away, with 1/3 of the taxes and cheaper housing.

A house in the seedy neighborhoods of my area runs about $70k, and a house in the nicer areas run $400 to $600k. However, I don't need 5 bedrooms and 4 bathrooms and a 4 car garage for 3 people, so why on earth would I upgrade so as to not live in a "dump", which, I'm sure, by most suburban America's standards, is what I live in.

No one said there's anything wrong with living within your means, which you say you do. Nor is there anything wrong with enjoying material possessions. What IS wrong, in my opinion, is buying into the whole "I have to have it because SOCIETY tells me I have to have it"... when you consider the majority of people's spendings, they don't buy things they truly enjoy, but rather things that everyone else has, so they must have as well.

[snuggly mama]

I think another piece of the problem in talking about money is that then those who know your financial status presume that they also know what you should or shouldn't be spending your money on. If people knew how much cc debt we have, I'm sure they would really look down on us for some of the choices we make (planning for vacations, etc). But dh and I get to decide where our money should go. We know how to be responsible, but we also know all too well that life is too short not to enjoy it. We want to give our kids memories of family vacations, so that's a priority for us. We also have a plan to pay off debt as well, but if it takes us 5 years instead of 3, well, that's nobody's business but our own.

[tamagotchi]

Originally Posted by Redifer

However, is a half-million dollar home "neccessary"? How about an $80k car? Then, the "owners" of such things have the gall to look down on those without the lavish lifestyle they possess

I don't think a half-million dollar home is necessarily lavish. In our area, if you want more than one bedroom, you are definitely going to be spending more than half a million. Two bedroom condos start around 650k. Single family homes... well, I haven't bothered looking at the prices on those for a long time, I know we will never be able to afford one. Our other option would be to live one or two hours' commute away from DH's job, which would mean he wouldn't be able to spend much time with me and DS. (His current commute is 10 minutes by bike, and it makes a huge difference to our quality of life.)

Anyway, it would be nice to be able to buy our own home, but we currently live in a one bedroom rental apartment. I guess it would qualify as a half-million dollar home, since that's what comparable condos sell for. On our way to the co-op where we buy our food, we walk by lots of similar apartments, occupied by people who are poorer than we are. These apartments are filled with bunkbeds because that is the only way to fit a large family into a one bedroom apartment. I guess these people live in half-million dollar homes, too. I don't think you would consider their lifestyle very lavish though

[mamamilkers]

I'm going to take a guess here and say that where Redifer is from, extravagant homes ARE half a million dollars-- it was just an example.

I also have to agree that I'd rather my children learn what interest rates are, how to balance a chekbook, how to save, etc etc than half the useless junk they probably will learn! The fact of the matter is, children can't learn these skills from their parents if they happen to have parents who know very little about money. I would venture a guess that most parents don't, at least IME.

Money only comes up with my very closest friends, and even then not on a detailed level. I think we just are too depressed by that conversation