Son bullied by three year olds - Page 3

[Soundhunter]

3 yr olds are so over the top, larger than life sometimes, I was genuinely frightened of some of them when Emma was little. Now she's the 3 yr old, and while she's not particularly aggressive she is very bossy, hyper and loud. Her behavior likely seems horrifying to mothers (and fathers) of small infants and younger toddlers. 3 yr olds seem so big, so capable, so articulate, so much older compared to the little ones, but I think what the OP and another poster or two are missing in this thread is how little 3 yr olds really are, and you will see this for yourselves when your own little ones are 3. It's a challenging time for many parents, but thankfully 3 yr olds are also very funny, affectionate, inventive, imaginitive and brilliant little people too, so they're not quite as fightening as I once thought. Loud, aggressive play is developmentally on track for those boys, though I think their mothers should have stepped in, at least to apologize on their son's behalf to you and your son, OP. But I don't think being harsh to make them stop would teach them anything, nor do I think such approaches to disciplie is really GD anyways, is it?

[crb]

Just trying to get some more positive intent in there for mama and kiddos:

I agree that some correction could be entered into by the parent- but that sometimes w/3 yo it is sometimes ignoring an inappropriate comment is the best way of keeping them from getting the child caught up in the play - if they had kept making comments, etc., the parents should definitely step in, but a single comment to a baby, then moving on - maybe the mom felt it best not to direct attention to that behavior since some kids, when you tell them what NOT to do, they do it again and again. She probably could have said something to you about so you would feel better about it?

I remember once visiting my nephew and he greeted me at the door w/ "I'm a crocodile and I'm going to bite you and chew your head up!" While I stood there in surprise (being w/o kids at the time) his father just said, "Oh my, that's dramatic" and directed us all to a new activity. At the time I thought "shouldn't he have addressed the violence?", but later I realized that by not really acknowledging it or playing along and moving along quickly, he was sending a message to his son. Maybe they discussed it later - I don't know.

[Sarain]

These three year old's might not be bullies YET, but if thire behaviour is not redirected NOW, they will be bullies in a few years. I think three is definetly old enough to learn about RESPECT, feelings and kindness ( good social skills for life.) In my culture (Native indian) Respect for everyone and every natural thing is taught early. of course I know that the boy's were not actually going to chop my son up, but the harsh tone of voice, and the fact that two older kids gathered around my baby..was not cool at all. As parent's it's our job to teach our children about appropriate behaviour, thire effect on others, and responsibility. If we do nothing, let our children run all over the place screaming and banging around while people are talking..We are not giving our children boundries, and without healthy boundries children not only express bratty, irritating behaviour ( see how I'm not actually calling the kids bratty?) But without boundries children are insecure, and that's not fair the them.

If Gabriel was one of those three year olds this is how I would handle it.

I would have said to him right away " Gabriel that is a very violent and unacceptible thing to say to another person, if you can't be kind then maybe you need to take a break from playing for now."

If Gabriel was the one running around making noise while a mother was crying and trying to talk I would have:

A. Taken him to another room for a few minutes

B. Tell him he needs to find a quiet activity to do.

I don't like the lazy and irrisponsible additude some parent's and teachers have..such as "boys will be boys" "Kids will be kids" or " They'll work it out for them selves."

While I was in the Waldorf school I was told daily by the other kids that I was a " dirty Indian", that I was " stupid, fat, and ugly." I was also punched, slapped, and kicked in the crotch by boys...Eventually my parents pulled me out the of the school, because the teachers and other parents thought we would "work it out for our selves!" Thanks a lot!

So for the people here that think I'm overreacting..Yeah I will do everything possible to make sure my son never has to go through the same feelings of fear, self- hate as I did. At the same time I will also make sure he learns to treat others with respect and kindness. He is my child, I love him and I WILL do my best to protect him from physical and emotional harm, including verbal threats by three year olds! Of course I know that he will have some painful expiriences in life, and he will be treated badly from time to time by different people.. But, I still want to prevent as many of them as possible, espically during the childhood years. If something like this happens again I will make clear in a RESPECTFUL way that it's not ok to talk to my son like that, to both the parent and child. This is my right as a mother.

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by Sarain

These three year old's might not be bullies YET, but if thire behaviour is not redirected NOW, they will be bullies in a few years.

Please read this in the gentle tone I'm saying: This is just not true.

You do not have to sit helplessly and stew. You can just say, quietly and gently, "Please use gentle tones with my baby."

Three year olds act like this. Often while pretending to me meat eating dinosaurs or something.

I'm sorry you had a bad time at the meeting. Three year olds who play loudly are not destined to become bulllies if their parents don't make them leave.

I really hope that you feel better soon.

[hhurd]

Originally Posted by Soundhunter

3 yr olds seem so big, so capable, so articulate, so much older compared to the little ones, but I think what the OP and another poster or two are missing in this thread is how little 3 yr olds really are...

Yes, very true. Just be/c many are physically larger and able to speak in complete sentences does not mean that most 3yo are able to fully comprehend the consequences of their actions. That's what parents are for.

And thanks chfriend. You beat me to it.

[bratmobile]

I watch my 3 YO closely around babies and little ones because I remember how hurt I was when his toys would be taken or spoken to rudely. I think it hurt me much more than him most of the time (when he was very young) but I agree that parents of older kids need to watch them. However, if they do not, its perfectly acceptable and even necessary for the parent of the child being disrespected to protect their child's space and/or feelings.

At the park the other day there were some bigger boys piling sand onto a merry-go-round. Their project was to make it slippery and to "hurt the babies." They were absolutely giddy with their ideas and delighted to no end with the idea of "hurting all the babies." Their mother just said "Oh my!" and didn't do anything. I feigned shock and horror and played along and the kids were also delighted with my reaction. I asked which babies they wanted to hurt, if they wanted to hurt my baby (asleep on my chest). And they said no. I asked about other babies in the park and they didn't want to hurt those babies either. They also didn't want to hurt "pretend babies." They were playing a game of pure fantasy. I don't think that these kids will grow into real life baby-hurters. And I don't think their game needed to be changed because it had violence involved.

This was different than the OP's situation because they were engaging only their ideas and not a real person. But 3 year olds often live in fantasy; certainly they need guidance to distinguish reality from fantasy and how to play with other kids respectfully, but wild or violent fantasy is not uncommon, nor does it indicate true violent or bullying tendencies.

I returned home from the park ticked off many a time when my first son was an infant/younger toddler. It took a while before I realized that I was going to have to interevene when other parents were absent. I didn't feel comfortable at first, but for the sake of all the kids situations like that should be addressed so the older kids learn and so you and your child don't leave feeling like doormats.

[georgia]

Hi, everyone! Please take a moment to look over the Forum Guidelines, specifically the following section:

Welcome to Gentle Discipline. This forum has a specific aim: to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children.

Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.

Please PM me if you have concerns or questions about the forum's intent or guidelines, thanks

[MelMel]

Originally Posted by hhurd

And, a 3yo cannot (developmentally) be a bully.

what are you basing this on? opinion? anecdotal evidence? child development experts? which ones? do you have a reference or a link? I am not saying I do or do not agree, but these grand statements are made so often here, and they sound nice but are unfounded. At what 'age' are people allowed to be considered bullies?

I have noticed the same thing as the OP. When my dd was just under 2, I walked back into the room at an LLL meeting and my dd was being cornered by 2 other children whispering to her to 'get out of here stupid' very maliciously. She was terrified. This was not the first time I had witnessed stuff like this at the meetings. Once some children were allowed to destroy the hostess's heirloom dollhouse which was up high on a table. The children pulled up chairs and trashed it. Took out fixtures and stairs, etc. It was incredibly sad. I have dozens of stories like this....from 3-4 different groups and going to meetings over a period of about 2-3 years. I have since learned my lesson, and avoid meetings where moms talk and children play, since things got out of hand too quickly and moms for the large part don't really seem to care.

I also have a dd who when she hit 3 (is 4 now) turned into an exciteable, potentially obnoxious, sometimes dark-humored child, who has probably threatened to cut off alot of arms and heads....joking, laughing at the time, of course, but alot of people look at me and wonder where she gets this kinda talk from, I know. I absolutley would explain to her why it is so hurtful if she ever said or did inappropriate or mean things to a younger or more sensitive person who may not understand her attitude/humor.

You can have a child who is different, more aggressive, socially challenged or advanced, but to drop them in a room with others and then abandon them to have tea is not acceptable to me. This seems to be the norm at most of these meetings. I stopped going. This is not the type of socialization I am looking for for my kids.

Seems that alot of moms can write off inappropriate social interactions as 'kids being kids' but then again, alot of the moms who post here probably go to these meetings regularly, too. :

[newmommy]

It's interesting to hear from those who don't have 3 year olds yet.

[marybethorama]

Originally Posted by MelMel

I have since learned my lesson, and avoid meetings where moms talk and children play, since things got out of hand too quickly and moms for the large part don't really seem to care.

You can have a child who is different, more aggressive, socially challenged or advanced, but to drop them in a room with others and then abandon them to have tea is not acceptable to me. This seems to be the norm at most of these meetings. I stopped going. This is not the type of socialization I am looking for for my kids.
:

I have had this experience too

I also found alternative types of socialization for my kids.

[peilover010202]

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeeds

I don't doubt that you or your dh are fabulous parents.

Personally, the situation described in the OP wouldn't have shocked me very much. I would have thought maybe one or the other 3yo had an older sibling or friend with which they "play fight". Do three year old's always make the best choices when trying to interact with others? No. Do I think the mother should have intervened? Yes. WOuld I have intervened? Yes. Would I have called the 3yo a bully or put the everlasting fear of G. in him? No.

My ds1 is 3yo and he says things like this and yes, sometimes it is directed at a younger child. And, he is trying to "play fight". He just doesn't understand these younger children are much too small to play in this fashion. I definitely redirect him, "oh honey, he's just a little one, we need to play gently with him. You can pretend fight at home with daddy." He's not being malicious at all. He doesn't mean any harm to the child. But, for his age, role-playing (like a superhero - Power Rangers right now) is very common and it should be encouraged in the right setting IMHO.

To the op, I, personally would have said gently to the child "oh he's just a baby, maybe you could play like that with some of the older boys here? that might be fun."

And, as far as the active, loud play. Seems pretty typical of boys and the ages. I'm sure they could have been quieted down temporarily, but it wouldn't have lasted long.

[guestmama9911]

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeeds

I personally don't take the approach of "showing them who is boss" and "putting the fear of G. into them" and "using my sharp mouth" to make a point especially where children are concerned.

When he said this, he added a smile. He doesn't yell or use aggression towards children. That wouldn't teach them anything. But telling an infant that you want to chop them up is a behavior that will get worse over time if it isn't addressed. This is disturbing, even in a three year old, and passive parenting isn't the answer. Neither of us has implied that our child is going to be perfect and never be bad. But we aren't going to just sit back and say "oh, he's young, he doesn't mean anything by it." That completely misses an opportunity to teach a child to b peaceful with others.

[mamaduck]

Gosh, if wild three year old behavior is an indication of what is to come.... then my lovely older children are miracles that defy nature.

Sarain -- what awful experiences you endured as a child! There is no excuse for what you went through, and no justification for the adults that stood by without standing up for you.

However -- I'm worried about the anxiety you are setting yourself up for with your baby. Developmentally normal stages DO pass, and its important to keep that perspective while mothering, or we would all be driving ourselves crazy.

I really think it would have been appropriate for YOU to speak up for your baby, in a kind and constructive way. The other mothers probably expected that you would, if you felt bothered!

[heartmama]

So many good points made already.

One more to add on bullying~bullying is the use of threats and violence in order to control another person and their behavior.

I think what the OP described was basic aggressive language. 3 year olds experiment with aggressive talk. Many 3 year olds go through a phase of wanting to say something that is "the scariest" or "The baddest" thing they can possibly imagine. This is normal. Parents still have a job to do, and I am sorry these parents did not step in and offer gentle guidance to their children. I think it would have been okay for you to say 'Those are scary words. You might scare the baby. Please use gentle words when you talk to him".

Also, I would initiate a conversation with those mothers. Focus on your own feelings, not on what you think they did wrong. Something like "It upset me and my son when the bigger kids said they would cut off his arms. What could we do to encourage gentler words with the baby? I could really use your help. "They might offer to say something to their kids. Then if it happens again, you can make eye contact with the moms, and hopefully that will prompt them to step in and help.

[KBinSATX]

Originally Posted by newmommy

It's interesting to hear from those who don't have 3 year olds yet.

What are you trying to say with this?

[dawncayden]

Originally Posted by KBinSATX

What are you trying to say with this?

I think she means, we will change our tune when it's our child that is 3 years old.


I experienced two 3 year olds today in Science World that were very aggresive physically towards ds. One was hitting him to get out of the way and the other pushed him away with her body til he fell over.
I'm a very easy going type of parent, but I don't let things like that go unnoticed. I said 'no hitting please' and I said 'Hey! Excuse me? Can you not push him' to the other kid. In both cases...their parents were not present or did not care.

Dawn

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by heartmama

I think it would have been okay for you to say 'Those are scary words. You might scare the baby. Please use gentle words when you talk to him".

I think this is way more appropriate than "That's not nice!" as many have suggested. Not only is "That's not nice!" a pretty judgement-laden statement, it's not very specific.

[Treasuremapper]

I would talk with the LLL leader privately and express your concerns. Some LLL leaders are great and will have creative and tactful ways of handling matters. Maybe there need to be interesting quieter toys available for the older children... I don't know.

[mashtree]

I could have written the OP's post when my son was 10 months old.

I could say very similar things to what mamaduck says now when my son is 4.5 years old.

I am slowly learning to "never say never" about when my son gets older and *try* not to view "the really big 8-year-olds" as formidable and scary.

In the situation described, I would have intervened if I was the mother of one of the 3-year-olds with a comment like "I think that what you are doing scares the baby, please be gentle and a bit more quiet with him" or similar. I don't think I would have said anything if I was the OP, but I would have likely picked up my baby and gently comforted him if I saw/felt he was upset about the whole thing.

I don't think there was any bullying involved whatsoever and King Solomon story that mamaduck brought up seems like a very real possibility here.

[georgia]

This seems to be the norm at most of these meetings.

If at all possible, speak with the leader directly (call her or email her if that's more comfortable). She's "in charge" of making sure mothers and babies feel safe, welcome and are getting their needs met at the mtgs. This may have been an isolated incident, but prob. not. IME at LLL meetings, it's important that the new mothers' needs are met first, and the mothers of the older nurslings are, in many instances, are coming for the social aspect. I've seen children run totally wild, destroying property even . At this point, if the mothers of the disruptive children aren't going to step in and redirect, and the mother of a baby who is in danger of being stepped on, run over, pushed down, etc isn't saying something---it's the leader's responsibility to do so...but, as someone else had mentioned, leaders are often in very in depth discussions, and can't be all places at once. If you continue to attend, and not much is changing after talking with the leader or if you feel comfortable, speaking with the mothers and children themselves, I would find another meeting, if possible. You deserve to feel safe in a LLL mtg

I have left more than a few LLL meetings when my babies were young, b/c the older children were too rough and despite my requests, they didn't stop, nor did their mothers stop them, and then again, I've left when MY older children were being too rough and it was obvious we simply needed to go outside and run around rather than sit in a room full of non and newly-walking babies.

I would totally intervene and step in and say something to the toddlers like, "those are scary words, please be gentle with the baby." If they continued, I would have no problem going to their mothers...BUT, I've also been doing this a long time, and know this type of behavior is par for the course. And I don't mean that in a boys will be boys sense. It's more like children are testing their boundaries and limits...and many *DO* use words that feel scary or violent. I would totally have been shocked and appalled when my first was 10 months old if someone had threatened to chop or cut him :