pertussis help please

[Peony]

We've been battling pertussis for weeks now, DD2 is not doing too well, and I really don't know what else to do. She is 7 wks old, she did not have antibiotics. i've been taking at least 375mg per kg of SA for my weight since she was 3 weeks old, that is when we got a positive test for DD1. I attempted mixing her own up in BM and giving it to her via a dropper, she always managed to spit most of it back up, but holds my BM down better. I got a mild case of pertussis a couple weeks ago, DD2 started getting symptoms when she was 4 weeks old, just a slight cough, it didn't increase until the beginning of last week. By last weekend she was getting lethergic, she was vomiting (after coughing so hard) half of her feedings back up again, by sunday night she had stopped nursing all together. We ended up in the hospital for several days so DD2 could get rehydrated via an IV, I avoid the hospital and docs normally, but this had to be done, she was not coming around on her own. We also learned while we were there that her O2 levels were very low, we live at 7,000 ft, so she is on O2 now. We came home last night, and her coughing fits have increased again. They are truly awful, tonight was the first night were she turned blue, and I was terrified. She has also decreasedher nursing again today, I'm trying so hard to get her to nurse, finally I get some in her, only to see her throw it back up again. DD2 does a decent job of getting the mucous out, she coughs up alot of it. I don't want to end back up in the hospital, I really don't know what else to do for her.

[tiffany21074]

no advice, but hugs for you and your family

[mamakay]

If you start to get scared, go to the hospital. And don't feel bad about going to the hospital as many times as you need to.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by Peony

We've been battling pertussis for weeks now, DD2 is not doing too well, and I really don't know what else to do. She is 7 wks old, she did not have antibiotics. i've been taking at least 375mg per kg of SA for my weight since she was 3 weeks old, that is when we got a positive test for DD1. I attempted mixing her own up in BM and giving it to her via a dropper, she always managed to spit most of it back up, but holds my BM down better. I got a mild case of pertussis a couple weeks ago, DD2 started getting symptoms when she was 4 weeks old, just a slight cough, it didn't increase until the beginning of last week. By last weekend she was getting lethergic, she was vomiting (after coughing so hard) half of her feedings back up again, by sunday night she had stopped nursing all together. We ended up in the hospital for several days so DD2 could get rehydrated via an IV, I avoid the hospital and docs normally, but this had to be done, she was not coming around on her own. We also learned while we were there that her O2 levels were very low, we live at 7,000 ft, so she is on O2 now. We came home last night, and her coughing fits have increased again. They are truly awful, tonight was the first night were she turned blue, and I was terrified. She has also decreasedher nursing again today, I'm trying so hard to get her to nurse, finally I get some in her, only to see her throw it back up again. DD2 does a decent job of getting the mucous out, she coughs up alot of it. I don't want to end back up in the hospital, I really don't know what else to do for her.

I would try to get the vitamin C back into her again. Wait until she throws the mucous out, and then if you give it to her at that time, she has a much better chance of keeping it down.


Here are some cuts and pastes of previous posts:

With any cough, particularly whooping cough, here is what I do. I turn the baby round, with its back to mine. I split my legs, so the baby is supported around the tummy but the legs are straight down. My hands make a net around the baby’s ribcage and tummy, and when the baby coughs, I lean forward slightly and use the hands as a very gentle net so that the baby has something for the tummy to push against. I give the baby some pressure to use, but I do not press in hard. They haven't learned to control their abdominal muscles to get an efficient cough yet, so that hands make it much easier for them. If it is whooping cough, then you will get a thick clear mucusy glob ejected onto your floor. Better out than in. Don't attempt to catch it, or you may drop the baby. I just put newspaper on the floor and caught it that way. If it is whooping cough, then the cough will become more regular. Maybe every hour, on the hour. This is because it takes around an hour for the mucus to pool at the bottom of the bronchial tube.

The cough is caused by the bacteria adhering to the bronchial walls, and secreting a toxin which cuts of the cilia (hairs) in the bronchials. These hairs sweep the mucus up and sown the throat. The bronchial hairs moves the mucus around all the time, so that it replaces and at the same time gets rid of any pathogens. (If it didn't do this, then we would die of all the bacteria and viruses and muck we breathe in that gets stuck in it.)

This mucus is part of the inate immune system. It is linked to the BALT (Bronchial associated lymphatic tissue) as I understand it. (Just put that in in case someone decides to rain down coals on my head..) so you must keep the mucus moving. What whooping cough does it by cutting off the hairs, it stops the mucus moving. So long as you keep the mucus moving your baby should not get a secondary infection.

The other thing the toxin can do is get into the blood-stream, and irritate the body.

If the mucus is not got out bacteria will grow and cause a secondary bacterial infection, which they will want to treat with antibiotics. They say whooping cough in rare cases, can cause long-lasting bronchial problems. Yes it can, if you treat it the way the doctors do IMO, doing nothing other than antibiotics. Just using antibiotics does not deal with the pooling mucus, or manage it, or deal with the toxin. If you keep the mucus moving (you can also use gentle postural drainage if you want) there should be nor further problems other than the cough itself.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The vitamin C neutralises any toxins in the blood and should stabilise the baby if you can give it to her at the best time so she doesn't throw up.

With babies the best thing is to start a feed, and then pause for the gag to cut in, then let them cough and chuck up the mucuos then immediately feed them again, and you will find that the feed stays down more often.

Get the SA in to breastmilk, and have it ready, so that she chucks, you feed, and try to insert the SA at the same time.

It becomes a "management" game, and the key is to get as much in as possible immediately after a chuck session.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Let us know if this works, and if not, please come back and give detailed symptoms, and I'll look up in my homeopathy book and see if there is something that might break the cycle.

While some here consider homeopathy doesn't work, this is one occasion when to use it is a good idea . After all, if it doesn't work, you're right where you were before.

[Peony]

Thanks MT. My ND had recommended pertussinum 200C one a day for dd2 but honestly I haven't noticed any difference. In fact I took it when I had my bad coughing spells and it made my fits worse, spongia helped me more, I had a really barking cough though.

DD2's mucous comes in spells, her cough will be really dry for most of the day, then get really congested and out comes the mucous. but she'll still throw up with the dry cough, sometimes I can see the mucous in it, other times it's not there. I always hold her up with a little pressure on her stomach, I usually can't get her turned around now before her coughing gets bad and moving her seems to make it worse, we get tangled up in her oxygen tubing. So I've been putting her over the back of my shoulder and putting the pressure on her stomach that way.

I'll try giving her the SA that way tonight and let you know how it goes.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by Peony

Thanks MT. My ND had recommended pertussinum 200C one a day for dd2 but honestly I haven't noticed any difference. In fact I took it when I had my bad coughing spells and it made my fits worse, spongia helped me more, I had a really barking cough though.

I don't use pertussinum here. I've not found it useful.

DD2's mucous comes in spells, her cough will be really dry for most of the day, then get really congested and out comes the mucous. but she'll still throw up with the dry cough, sometimes I can see the mucous in it, other times it's not there. I always hold her up with a little pressure on her stomach, I usually can't get her turned around now before her coughing gets bad and moving her seems to make it worse, we get tangled up in her oxygen tubing. So I've been putting her over the back of my shoulder and putting the pressure on her stomach that way.

That's okay, you'll just collect it down the neck, that's all.

I'll try giving her the SA that way tonight and let you know how it goes.

Stick up a piece of paper and write out the pattern for the next 24 hours, when she sleeps, how she sleeps, what annoys her, what motion; what makes her relax and feel happier, and if necessary, you sleep in a lazy boy rocker or something, with her angled up your chest.

I'll keep checking this thread over the next few days, and if you want me to find a homepathic I will.

Sometimes you have to use sulphur 30 first, to clear the picture though...

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Where is the 02 tubing put in?

[Peony]

We have a oxygen concentrator at home that she is hooked up to, when she was on the continous monitoring at the hospital her O2 levels were dropping way down when not coughing. I've noticed an improvement in her alertness while on the O2 as compared to last week.

Yep, the back of my shirt is covered in dried mucous.

I'll keep a list going.

Another thing, my chiro told me to give DD2 Nat Sulph drops, 3 once a day and that would help her cough up the mucous, and I have noticed that she coughs the mucous up easier while on the drops.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Let's see how it goes.

But even if you *think* she's better, you should give her the vitamin C. Pertussis is one of those infections with little babies where you have more to be worried about if they go quiet than if they are wriggling and coughing.

If the vitamin C gets into her, you will notice a big reduction in coughing, but there should also be an increase in alertness.

It's not just the oxygen that's making her less alert, its the levels of pertussis toxin that depresses her system. If you get that toxin out of the system, the alertness will come back, and she'll be a lot noisier. Also the vitamin C with some babies thins the mucus a bit, so it may feel as if she's coughing up more to start with.

Keep careful notes, because at times like this, its not easy to remember. If you have a good working sheet in the fridge all the time, its much easier to see where you've been and where you are going.

Some parents keep a planner on the fridge with each week drawn up, and they put down when coughing spells are etc... and usually quite apart from your instinct, you can see very clearly when they are over the hump. But again, don't stop vitamin C at that point. Just start to tail the doses downwards.

This is old, but its still relevant.

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorba...-p1884-eng.htm

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Just had a thought. Your additional option is to buy some liposomal vitamin C, which works "inside out" in that it deals with the blood before the mucous membranes. Dr Thomas Levy's site has something on it about it:

http://tomlevymd.com/archiveissue9.htm

Also, liposomal is absorbed through the mouth without being digested and therefore you have a better chance of getting it into the system.

His website has his e-mail and I'm sure if you e-mailed him, he would reply:

http://tomlevymd.com/ At least, I hope he would.

[Peony]

all during the night DD2 would throw back the SA, but keep down the nursing sessions were I didn't attempt to sneak in the SA. I would nurse a little, wait fro her to cough up the mucous (she is really mucousy right now, her cough sounds very congested), and then nurse again, sneaking in the SA every now and then. I mixed up a small amount with BM to start with, it would make her gag and she'd throw everything back up. She has always had a very sensitive stomach to begin with.



So if she has the pertussis toxin in her blood stream then would that increase her WBC to really high levels? I'm not remembering what it was, lack of sleep here, but I know the docs were really concerned about a secondary bacterial infection because the levels were so high, but blood cultures were negative.


I'm looking into getting some liposomal vit c shipped me, that sounds like it would be a good choice at this point, I'm in a rural area and the closest distributor is several hundred miles away. Since it is going to be at least a day, maybe monday before I get get some (overnight service really doesn't exist here), can I increase my SA consumption even more and hope that maybe some will get to her?


She hasn't had another coughing fit where she has turned blue again, but they are still frequent and nasty, she struggles so much and is so little to begin with. She is only 8.5 lbs now, she hasn't been able to gain much weight during all this.


Thank you so much for helping us, I have spent days at the computer researching but this info this nearly impossible to find.

[Peony]

A homepathic remedy would be great. I'll get a friend to pick up sulphur for me to start with.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by Peony

We've been battling pertussis for weeks now, DD2 is not doing too well, and I really don't know what else to do. She is 7 wks old, she did not have antibiotics.

My understanding is that antibiotics don't help the one with pertussis, but prevent her from being contagious early on (of course you may know this and it is only fyi that she didn't have them ).

[lyttlewon]

:

[Peony]

Originally Posted by i'mmykid'$mom

My understanding is that antibiotics don't help the one with pertussis, but prevent her from being contagious early on (of course you may know this and it is only fyi that she didn't have them ).

I knew that, and chose not to give them to her.

[2busy2clean]

I do hope your little one is feeling much better soon.

I was able to manage my baby's cough (he was 4 months) with my intake of SA. However I also had pertussis, so my body allowed me to consume high amounts of SA. If I remember correctly (sadly I didn't keep notes so things are a tad hazy) 12 grams of SA was the amount I had to take to keep baby's cough from getting worse. When I dropped to 10 grams, the cough would get worse. For me at that time, 20 grams was where bowel tolerance kicked in, which amazes me now.
Hope you can glean a tad bit from my experience.

Oh, something else that I did with my little guy, I would vary the amount of pressure on his tummy when he coughed, according to the rhythem of the cough. It was fairly instinctive to know when to gently press a little bit harder and when to relax, to help the tummy muscles work like an older childs would during a coughing spell.

[annettemarie]

I'm going to bump this over to Health and Healing.

[Demeter9]

Are you taking Vitamin C to bowel tolerance yourself? This would increase the concentration of it in your breastmilk. At least the little bit you could get her to drink would have a better profile then.

[Peony]

Ok maybe i'm doing it wrong but I've never been able to get to bowel intolerance, I'm doubled over with severe stomach cramps far before that point. I'v been on 13g of SA for a month now every day. I take 3g when I wake up, and then spread the rest out during my waking hours. I went up to 15-16g for a while and had the cramping, I still get them with the 13g on some days, not to mention the gas. I take citrus bioflavanoids to a ratio of 5g of SA to 1g of bioflavanoids.