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pertussis help please - Page 2

post #21 of 51
What type of Vitamin C are you taking? Is it by chance a "natural" or ascorbic acid?
post #22 of 51
Thread Starter 
It's Sodium Ascorbate, the NOW brand.
post #23 of 51
hmmmm. I would suggest then that you might be at bowel tolerance. It could be that the gas is an indication of that for you. Your intestines are reacting, they just aren't doing so in the classical fashion. Maybe you're a fiber queen more than the rest of us or something.
post #24 of 51
Okay, I'm presuming that your pertussis is probably mild because you've been taking Vit C for a while. If you stop it, your level of coughing will drastically increase within 24 hours, but I wouldn't want to do that, because I suspect and have no evidence for it, since "they" won't study it that the level of pertussis toxin in your breastmilk would increase, which might increase her load. So No1 priority is to keep your pertussis as mild as possible, gas or no gas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peony View Post
all during the night DD2 would throw back the SA, but keep down the nursing sessions were I didn't attempt to sneak in the SA. I would nurse a little, wait fro her to cough up the mucous (she is really mucousy right now, her cough sounds very congested), and then nurse again, sneaking in the SA every now and then. I mixed up a small amount with BM to start with, it would make her gag and she'd throw everything back up. She has always had a very sensitive stomach to begin with.
Ah, now that I didn't know.

Stop giving her the SA.

It's much more important that she keeps down the breastmilk.

Use the liposomal for you, because it gets into your body better. Cut back your SA once you get the liposomal, to reduce the gas for you, but your aim for yourself is to cut your cough back to pretty much as little as possible, because that means your system is a "clean" as possible, and your macrophages etc, can get in there in the immune cascade, and chomp up the bacteria. I view vitamin C as the thing that clears away the impeding sludge in the body and clears the pathway so that the immune system can get on with its job, which is to track down, complementise (a word I just made up based on the fact that complement circles pathogens as part of the process) the bacteria, and nuke it.

They say there there is a "block" mechanism with breastmilk, so that the concentration of Vitamin C will only go up so far, but that doesn't explain why when mothers take higher amounts, their babies cough gets less. I think there might be a double mechanism here. It might be that the mother's breastmilk levels of toxin are reduced, or that more gets through the breastmilk than standard medical literature allows for.

The problem is that because the medical profession don't believe that vitamin C works, they won't study the best way to get it into babies, because to them, its a non sequiteur.

(Meaning to doctors that the conclusion is a fallacy (vitamin C works), therefore the premise is not warranted (lets try this and see) )

Tom Levy's page that I gave you, gives a good description of how the various vitamin C works, and what might work best, and based on that, if you want, I'd e-mail him and ask him whether he's used liposomal in babies.

Given that liposomal doesn't require a digestive system then it might be part the answer for you to increase your levels without stomach cramps, and part the answer for her, to bypass what is already a sensitive stomach.

He might just suggest a smear in her mouth every now and again. Then again he might suggest something else.

Quote:
So if she has the pertussis toxin in her blood stream then would that increase her WBC to really high levels? I'm not remembering what it was, lack of sleep here, but I know the docs were really concerned about a secondary bacterial infection because the levels were so high, but blood cultures were negative.
Okay, that I didn't know as well.

High WBC's in pertussis are sometimes associated with a secondary infection with a pneumonaie type bacteria, so this is why its important to keep the mucuous moving out. If you get any pooling of mucus, that is when a secondary bacteria gets into the stuck mucus and goes for it. That's why the body is designed to constantly circulate the lung mucus, so that bacteria is removed and the surface stays clear.

So while its important to maximise her rest, its also important to keep the mucus moving. Which in management terms could be tricky.

How are your energy levels? The reason I ask, is that premie sick babies put on more weight through kangaroo care, rather than being allowed to "sleep on their own". I know she's throwing mucus everywhere, but I'd be looking for a very comfortable something on the front, and carry her all the time in the day. She's only 8.5 pounds so that's a plus right now. That means you have to work out an oxygen system. You could end up looking like a unique walking christmas tree with bells. .

How to carry them is another thing. The position they are in in a sling, or car-seat is IMO very dangerous. It closes the airways, and doesn't help mucus circulation. I'd be wanting her head "between your breast" level, and her bot below your belly button. Or if you can rig up something safe and permanent that has her chin on your shoulder with some means that she can relax her neck, then that's great. Remember too, that her neck area should be kept warm. If babies go to sleep and get a cold neck it stiffens up and causes them pain. So if my babies were sleeping over my should there had a turtle neck and hoodie arrangement. You don't want her getting cold, and neither do you want her overheating. But you want her to be lulled to sleep by motion and at the same time, that motion keeping her body moving, and the mucus moving. Yes, she may cough more regularly, but it will require less energy as there will be less pooling than if she lies still on a bed. That's when pooling can catch up on you.


Quote:
I'm looking into getting some liposomal vit c shipped me, that sounds like it would be a good choice at this point, I'm in a rural area and the closest distributor is several hundred miles away. Since it is going to be at least a day, maybe monday before I get get some (overnight service really doesn't exist here), can I increase my SA consumption even more and hope that maybe some will get to her?
Well, that's a tricky balance, becuase if increasing it more gives you excrutiating stomach cramps, then you will not be in much of a fit state to look after her.

I think right now, your priority is mucus management, keeping it moving, keeping her as happy as you can, and not giving yourself stomach cramps.

given that pertussis is a ten armed paper hanging occupation, what are you eating at the moment, and how regularly? Are you having any probiotics of any kind?

Quote:
She hasn't had another coughing fit where she has turned blue again, but they are still frequent and nasty, she struggles so much and is so little to begin with. She is only 8.5 lbs now, she hasn't been able to gain much weight during all this.
Okay, its the blue ones you need to avoid, so you have to keep the mucus moving. And keep the feeds down in her tummy.

And you need to sing to her, and yourself; have nice calming music going, eat well, and just roll with this. Like the willow tree...


Quote:
Thank you so much for helping us, I have spent days at the computer researching but this info this nearly impossible to find.
It is, because its all anecdotal, comes from experience, and people are too scared to talk about it, because doctors get upset when you suggest there are ways of managing it outside their knowledge. Also, there have been people here who have accused me of "practicing without a licence". My attitude to this, is that the doctors have done all they could. There is no more they have to offer that is of use, so if anything I say makes things better than why should I not "practice without a licence"? After all, what harm does it do beyond stomach gas for you?

post #25 of 51
Will be back shortly.

Am going to type up a homeopathic list and other bits on an Email and will post it here and file it.
post #26 of 51
Thread Starter 
I stopped the SA during the night when i realized it wasn't going to stay down no matter what I did, she has not thrown up since then. i ordered the liposomal, I doubt I will get it before next week, I live in the middle of nowhere. I'll e-mail Levy and ask. She is constantly held, she literally just gets put down for diaper changes. She sleeps in my arms, I pitched a fit in the hospital until I was brought a regular bed so I could sleep with her. I discovered last week that the mucous drained out easier if she was upright, so that's how she has been. As soon as she is done nursing then she goes over the back of my shoulder or vertical on my chest, I prop us up to sleep. And when I need a minute for a shower or something then she gets handed off to DH, if he isn't here then I call my mom to come hold her, she is always in arms. I walk alot with her, but will increase the motion.

My diet is not the best at the moment considering, I have been existing off of take out and what friends drop by. Normally I have a fairly decent diet. My gut is usually great, I frequently do rounds of probiotics, and I make my own cultured yogurt and eat it by the gallon. I have done one round of probiotics since this started, and I'm still eating yogurt, but it's a good store bought kind. I have one more packet of probiotics in the fridge,I'll have DH pick me up some more.
post #27 of 51
Thread Starter 
Hmm, so you got me thinking MT. Over the weekend when DD2 was really out of it, she slept even more then normal, she spiked several fevers that would vanish after a few hours, was she maybe starting to get a secondary infection? Her last fever went away just a couple hours after she puked up a huge volume of mucous, it was coming out her nose, gobs of it, it was everywhere.
post #28 of 51
I can not offer the great advice MT has for you however I know what you are going through. My dd had pertussis at 6 mo i know thats a difference then your tiny baby but I know your fear. I know the blue face coughing when it doesnt seem they get there breath its terrifying. I noticed alot of support for her coughs held alot I would sit her up in my lap her back to my tummy and out my hand over her stomach and chest giving her just alittle pressure to help her cough it up. The phlem would come shooting out of her mouth and plop on hte floor. We used alot of SA and homeopathy which helped alot I think. We were at week 4 when I started SA and she cleared pretty fast after that.

Many hugs to you momma and if there is anythign I can do please let me know

amy
post #29 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peony View Post
Hmm, so you got me thinking MT. Over the weekend when DD2 was really out of it, she slept even more then normal, she spiked several fevers that would vanish after a few hours, was she maybe starting to get a secondary infection? Her last fever went away just a couple hours after she puked up a huge volume of mucous, it was coming out her nose, gobs of it, it was everywhere.
Yes, that would fit.

So keep the mucous coming out so that nothing can get established, and keep her upright. You're doing really well you know... and working it out without my help anyway.


will post the homeopathy soon.
post #30 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peony View Post
I stopped the SA during the night when i realized it wasn't going to stay down no matter what I did, she has not thrown up since then. i ordered the liposomal, I doubt I will get it before next week, I live in the middle of nowhere. I'll e-mail Levy and ask.
Good, I think that that's the best idea. Get it anyway, but just ask him for some refining ideas of a protocol.

Quote:
She is constantly held, she literally just gets put down for diaper changes. She sleeps in my arms, I pitched a fit in the hospital until I was brought a regular bed so I could sleep with her. I discovered last week that the mucous drained out easier if she was upright, so that's how she has been.
Great, you're getting it sussed. It makes me mad when the hospital puts them flat, tells you to leave them alone, then gets mad that the mucous build up is fast and hard to clear
Quote:
As soon as she is done nursing then she goes over the back of my shoulder or vertical on my chest, I prop us up to sleep. And when I need a minute for a shower or something then she gets handed off to DH, if he isn't here then I call my mom to come hold her, she is always in arms. I walk alot with her, but will increase the motion.
I wouldn't do anything above what is normal in your day, because you don't need to wear yourself out at the moment. The key to surviving pertussis is pacing your day.

Quote:
My diet is not the best at the moment considering, I have been existing off of take out and what friends drop by. Normally I have a fairly decent diet. My gut is usually great, I frequently do rounds of probiotics, and I make my own cultured yogurt and eat it by the gallon. I have done one round of probiotics since this started, and I'm still eating yogurt, but it's a good store bought kind. I have one more packet of probiotics in the fridge,I'll have DH pick me up some more.
Okay, just be careful that the dairy isn't increasing the mucus. What might be useful is to get your mother to make you some mineral rich soups, that you can put a couple of ladle fulls into a saucepan, heat and drink warm out of a cup as you go. The other things that I would go for, would be finger food, like spanakopita (even though that has feta in it, if whoever makes it can reduce the feta and increase the onion spinach and parsley, and add a couple of f/r eggs...)

Whoever makes it should make them in triangles, wrap each on in saran wrap, and freeze them. You can take out two, put them in the oven until they are browned, allow them to cool for 10 minutes before you eat them, or you will burn your palate.

The other useful stand-bys are frozen wedges of lasagne of whatever type you like, be it seafood, veg, or meat...

Also, don't forget wedges of quiches frozen separately.

All those things can be taken out in portions which have been frozen, reheated from frozen, and eaten. That equates to minimum work for you, and maximum nutrition.
post #31 of 51
Bear in mind two things. These remedies were worked out in the days when whooping cough was really bad; they didn't know about vitamin C and this, or nothing, was pretty much their only choice.

Specific remedies to be given after every attack of coughing for up to 2 days. If no improvement or unsure which remedy to give, consult a classically trained homeopath (not a new age pendulum using joat/mon).

Obviously older children and adults can work this out, but with babies you're guessing part of the time.

I've combined everything from all of my texts, so the list is extensive. And there are extra notes where people might check. For those with Boericke's repertory go to pagge 892.

Remedy and indication in alphabetical order:

Antimonium Tartaricum Cough when child gets angry, and after eating. Ends in vomiting. "Chest full of rattles." Thirstless: coated tongue.

Arnica 6c violent tickling cough if child gets angry ~ key marker is that child begins to cry before cough because they know its coming, and don't like it. (who would?!)

Belladonna 6 c Child cries and complains of stomach pains before coughing attach comes on, has bursting feeling in head, cough worse at night and when lying down, better after coughing up mucus, then dry tickling in throat starts again and attack is repeated with whooping and retching, child red in face, eyes puffy and bulging.

Bromium 6 c Whooping cough in spring, towards hot weather and worse for the heat. With sensation of coldness in throat. Larynx feels as if covered with velvet, but feels cold.

Byronia Albathis one is for the child who after every time eating coughs and vomits again. (usually they might eat a bit, cough and vomit then eat again, and the second time it stays down, but this one is for the child that coughs every time they eat. Also, the cough shakes the whole body, and if the child is lying in bed, the child has to immediately stand up to cough.

Carbo vegetabilis 6 c Cough mostly hard and dry, or sounds rough. Apt to occur after a full meal. Every cough brings up a lump of phlegm, or is followed by gagging, waterbrash or retching. Pain in chest after cough: burning as from a coal of fire. Craving for salt (key marker) Often a cold sweat after a coughing spell."One of the best medicine for the beginning of whooping cough with gagging, vomiting and red face" (Kent)

Cina 6 c Becomes rigid with clucking sounds down in oesophagus after coughing fit stops. Stomach bloated , yet hungry, not relieved by eating. Grits teeth.

Coccus cacti 6c Coughing worse at night when child is warm in bed, alleviated by drinking cold water , vomited mucus is transparent and stringy. Child tens to hold breath to try and stop the coughing. Particularly for children who wake up in the morning, with cough on cough, which ends in vomitting long strings of ropy mucus. Here coccus will shorten the time of the disease.

cuprum 6c Paroxysms of coughing leave child breathless and exhaused, whooping intakes of breath cause lips to turn blue, cramps in toes and fingers (typically thumbs are tucked into palms), drinks of cold water seem to help Cuprum 6c.

Drosera 6 c = throat feels dry and tickly, impulse to cough is so violent that child vomits and can scarecely breath between coughs, clasps stomach in pain when coughing, feels chilly and restless, symptoms worse after midnight. Impulse to cough follow one another so violently that he can hardly get his breath. When coughing pain in pit of stomach and child can't cough unless they press their hands onto the stomach. Region below the ribs is painful when touched, and when coughing must press hand on it, to stop pain

Ipecac 6cchild feels sick most of the time, becomes rigid, pale and breathless, then relaxes and vomits, which ends attack.


Kali bichrom 6c Stringy, yellow mucus coughed up.

Kali carbonicum 6 c stong and tickling cough, mainly at night. Hard dry hacking cough comes on around 3 am, child very chilly and exhausted, eyelids puffy with bag like swelling between the upper lids and the eyebrows. often a puffy face as well.

Magnesia Phosphorica 6 c violent spasmodic attacks of cough with face blue and turgid. Ends with classical whoop.

Mephitis 1 - 3 c This is for where there is a very "suffocative" feeling, with asthmatic type breathing where the out breath is difficult. very violent cough, spasmodic, especially at night. mucus rales in chest, Desire for salt, worse lying down. Child must be raised all the time. Patient wants to bathe in ice-cold water, or eat iceblock.

Mephitis is a very short acting remedy, and I've found this one good for whooping cough in combination with...

Moschus 1 - 3 c, for children who are extremely tense, nervous, anxious and where the coughing leaves them looking startled. Also where there is tightness of chest, and they keep trying to take deep breaths. So this one is mostly for the asthma type children with intense fear, anxiety and where they feel they are being smothered, and where there is a high degree of hysteria. Moschus kids are better in open air, but worse for the cold.

Obviously aconite has relevance for fear as well, but is only for the begining of an actue disease and not to be used once pathological change has occured, so you are past this stage...

Every child is different, but in terms of stages (using the abreviations of remedies most times, not full, unless using abbreviations would confuse. You can always google each abbreviation also putting the word homeopathy in as well.:

early stages (spasmodic) Aconite, Belladona, Carb Ac, Carbo V, Castanea, Chel, Cina, Coccus, coral, Cupr, Dros, Hyos, Ipec, Mag p, Meph, Naph, Narcissus, Samb, Stann, Thymus

later stages (catarrhal)[/i] Ant t, Cinch, Hep, Ipec, Puls.

vomitting Ant t, Bell, Carbo v, Cereum oz, Coccus, Cupr, Dros, Ipec, Lob. infl, Ver a.

concomittant = body rigid, stiff, cyanosis Am carb, Ant. t, carbo v, Cina, Coral, Cupr.ac, Cupr. m, Iod, Ipec, Mag p, Meph, Op, Samb, Ver.a

coryza Alum, Lyc, Nat.e

coughs following each other rapidly and violently Drosera

Wakes in morning and vomits ropy mucus coccus

coughing and crying Nat mur.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For after whooping cough, in the few months while the hairs grow back, if a cold provokes the same severe cough, Sanguinaria

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~

Having put all this here, I need to say that I didn't use anything with my kids, because they took it in their stride, vitamin C was enough, and they were not babies. With babies I've primarily used vitamin C, management, Drosera, mephitus, moschus, mag phos; and treated the mothers for anxiety
post #32 of 51
Thread Starter 
I'm still going through the remedies, but have another question now, is not nursing common with WC in babies? DD2 is doing the same thing she did last weekend that landed us in the hospital with an IV, she has nursed two very short times in 12+ hours. That is not her normal, she loves to nurse. When I attempt to nurse her she either screams until I put her vertical again or licks the nipple and promptly falls asleep.
post #33 of 51
Thread Starter 
Levy and I e-mailed back and forth, he has not had experience in using liposomal vit c in infants He recommended mixing 1/3-1/2 of a packet and giving it to her in a solid, but when I said she was far too young for solids, he didn't have anything else to suggest.
post #34 of 51
If she needs to be upright to nurse, try football hold as that will keep her in an upright position. Worst comes to worst pump the milk and try getting it in her in an eye dropper, a small amount at a time. Hugs.
post #35 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peony View Post
I'm still going through the remedies, but have another question now, is not nursing common with WC in babies? DD2 is doing the same thing she did last weekend that landed us in the hospital with an IV, she has nursed two very short times in 12+ hours.
I'm presuming that maybe you are back in hospital?

Quote:
That is not her normal, she loves to nurse. When I attempt to nurse her she either screams until I put her vertical again or licks the nipple and promptly falls asleep.
Will she feed vertical? It's a slightly tricker technique, but can be done.

The main thing is, don't feel bad about having to go back to hospital for the IV if you need it. And remember that any other baby in hospital has been vaccinated for age anyway. It's not your or anyone else's fault, so just keep taking the vitamin C and play it by ear.

s :
post #36 of 51
Thread Starter 
She has this thing going where she will eat really great, and then refuse for hours and hours. She started eating Saturday after about 18 hours of almost nothing, nursed like crazy that pm, and all day yesterday. Then during the night and so far today isn't so great again. I've tried nursing vertically, using a dropper (boy does that make her mad), everything, she just isn't interested. I'm wondering if it's a mucous issue, maybe she finally coughs enough up to be comfortable nursing. She is in a good mood, just doesn't want to eat. So far she isn't dehydrated enough for another IV, during the times she is nursing, she's been eating so much to make up for it. As I was typing that, she decided she wanted to nurse. :

I've noticed a change in her over the last 36 hours, her cough is still frequent but it isn't severe all the time, and it doesn't last as long in duration. And she is coughing up so much mucous, it's amazing that all that can come from this tiny baby.
post #37 of 51
I've subbed to make sure I get instant notification if you reply.

Have you increased your SA or have you just concentrated on sussing out the management side a bit more confidantly? I found I relaxed more, once I could see a pattern, and the kids were a lot more relaxed about it, once I found my feet in terms of management.

You sound like you're doing fine though.
post #38 of 51
Thread Starter 
Wanted to give an update. DD2 is doing a little better, I noticed an improvement on Monday, but then she went back to where she was before. I haven't had her face turn blue again, but her lips do a few times a day. She is becoming more alert, and sleeping less, today she was awake for most of the day, she had never stayed awake for more then an hour or so. Her coughing fits still are frequent and severe, she'll throw up a few times a day, still producing lots of mucous. We went into the pedi today, she still isn't able to maintain her O2 sats, she might be on O2 for a while yet. Her lungs are clear, but she's lost weight since her last weighing almost 2 weeks ago. She hasn't refused to nurse since Monday, so I've been trying to nurse her as much as I can. I know she is on the mend now, it's just going to be a very long slow process. She will be 2 months old this weekend, and I forsee us staying home for a while yet.


I want to thank you MT for holding my hand through this.
post #39 of 51
How are YOU doing Peony? That is just as important...

I'm presuming you increased your own vitamin C last week? Have you still kept your levels up? I'm presuming if your answer is yes, that's not bothering her?

Her being alert is what you want. When she's sleepy like before, that's when the toxin levels in the body are up, and so yes, it looks as if either its a natural turning point, or what you are doing is working.

Your plan is a good one. Just feed as much as possible, and also try to feed yourself as well as you can. Dont' worry about her weight loss, because my guess is that she will stabilise this week, and her weight might start to rise next week, if not sooner.

That's great that her lungs are clear ~ huge improvement.

You're five weeks into this, so by my estimate you've another maybe three weeks of careful management, and then the cough will tail off.

But don't forget that until her bronchial cilia grow back, if she gets a cold in the 9 months after this, that same cough may start up again.

Anyway, its winter there so its not like you are missing out on sunbathing at the beach

post #40 of 51
Thread Starter 
I increased my SA just by a gram, anymore then that and the extra gas seemed to bother her. I'm hanging in there, exhausted, I'm not able to sleep much between all her coughing fits. I think the coughing hurts her throat now because she swallows a lot and fusses in her sleep, which just keep me awake more.


I'm realizing what a long winter this is going to be. DD1 got a tiny cold last week, one of those where she only had a runny nose for a day, now her coughing has increased more, she's throwing up again, she's snoring like a freight train. DH, who doesn't have the cold, coughed and vomited all over the floor last night, he has had pertussis for well over 2.5, probably 3 months by now. I'm trying to figure out the logistics of keeping DD1 sane, she's bouncing off the walls waiting to play with her friends who are all walking petri dishes, but trying to prevent any more illnesses from entering our house.
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