Someone offered me the Pearl's book today - Page 2

[seawillow]

I've been there ...

I applaud you for speaking up. I unfortunately am in a close relationship with a Pearl-following mom -- she and her husband did start hitting their infant at younger than 5 months, eventually injuring their baby and requiring intervention by family members. That incident and later injuries still have not stopped them from rigidly following all kinds of advice from the Pearls. Your input may not change this mom's mind, but if you can bring yourself to continue to stay in contact, you at least have a chance to provide her with a different perspective. I know the Pearls don't fit all the many definitions of a cult, but they do have some cult-like aspects, in my opinion: 1) They discourage parents from associating with friends, family, fellow church members, etc. who don't share the exact right views of childrearing (and to the Pearls, the only right way is the Pearl way) 2) The Pearls seem to regard themselves as having special knowledge (in one article Michael says he is more a preacher or prophet (!) than a teacher; his daughter writes an Internet blog in which she records her dreams, some quite violent, which she says may be prophecies) 3) Lack of accountability -- has anyone ever seen a financial accounting of their ministry, like those published by many reputable charities? Why have they and their children over the years used this supposedly nonprofit ministry to promote and sell for-profit herbal products? Why are they selling distributorships of their parenting materials if they are a nonprofit? Who is on the "board" they claim is overseeing their ministry? 4) They demonize those who disagree with them, refusing to acknowledge that there could be any middle ground between complete permissiveness and whipping infants and young children with pvc pipes, paddles, belts, etc. 5) They write about issues where they have no training or expertise, including serious medical and mental health issues, domestic abuse, etc. This is frightening given that they show so little humility or allowance that they might not have all the answers on some issues. And thanks to everyone who has posted on this topic. I felt so alone when I first confronted the Pearls' teachings, but I feel more encouraged now to keep speaking out about them.

[AidansMommy1012]

Wow. Found the book she recommended to you on Amazon and read some reviews. It's really saying something when the AP/gentle parents and the mainstreamers are all vomiting in unison.

These people sound like real pieces of work. Really wouldn't mind running into them in a dark alley. (It isn't advocating hitting when you're saving millions of kids, is it? Maybe I'd just have to talk them to death....)

[angelcat]

Originally Posted by AidansMommy1012

Wow. Found the book she recommended to you on Amazon and read some reviews. It's really saying something when the AP/gentle parents and the mainstreamers are all vomiting in unison.

These people sound like real pieces of work. Really wouldn't mind running into them in a dark alley. (It isn't advocating hitting when you're saving millions of kids, is it? Maybe I'd just have to talk them to death....)

Yeah, I'm not ap, but I can't stand the Pearls. I read some stuff on their website, and it just really upset me. This woman was bragging that her kid didn't bother her when she was visiting, even when she fell off a rocking horse and got a knot on her head. I wanted to give that woman a knot on her head....

[RiverSky]

Originally Posted by angelcat

Yeah, I'm not ap, but I can't stand the Pearls.

I hope you don't mind my asking but every once in a while I see an MDC member mention something like this and it surprises me. This is an Attachment Parenting board, so I'm wondering what is interesting here if you are not AP. Once I saw a member say that they did not know this was an AP board but I don't recall how it was that they got here. It's good to hear that you don't agree with the Pearls, of course.

Anyway, the question is: What brought you here, if you are not ap?

Just curious.

[angelcat]

Originally Posted by RiverSky

I hope you don't mind my asking but every once in a while I see an MDC member mention something like this and it surprises me. This is an Attachment Parenting board, so I'm wondering what is interesting here if you are not AP. Once I saw a member say that they did not know this was an AP board but I don't recall how it was that they got here. It's good to hear that you don't agree with the Pearls, of course.

Anyway, the question is: What brought you here, if you are not ap?

Just curious.

Originally, a fiend of mine stumbld upon this board, and wasn't treated well. I came to check it out, posted a few times & left. Then anoterh thread I heard about brought me back.

I don't vax, and am not sure if I ever will, so that interests me. I"m also interesting in babywearing, and heard the moms here really know theri stuff on that. I also did demand feeding with my baby. There isn't really any help here as I was unable to breastfeed, and am past that stage, but it was of interest.

I had also hoped to co-sleepm (well, at least part of the time) once my daughter was old enough to get off my bed safely, but that isn't for her.

I don't disagree with all asopects of ap, just some, and the judgmentalness I've seen. Not by everyone, but by enough.

[Viola]

Originally Posted by seawillow

I applaud you for speaking up. I unfortunately am in a close relationship with a Pearl-following mom -- she and her husband did start hitting their infant at younger than 5 months, eventually injuring their baby and requiring intervention by family members. That incident and later injuries still have not stopped them from rigidly following all kinds of advice from the Pearls.

[TinkerBelle]

Originally Posted by RiverSky

I hope you don't mind my asking but every once in a while I see an MDC member mention something like this and it surprises me. This is an Attachment Parenting board, so I'm wondering what is interesting here if you are not AP. Once I saw a member say that they did not know this was an AP board but I don't recall how it was that they got here. It's good to hear that you don't agree with the Pearls, of course.

Anyway, the question is: What brought you here, if you are not ap?

Just curious.

You can be into NFL and not be fully AP.

[rainymorning]

this is so odd that someone with a 5 months old would have a book by the pearls in her purse, and would even talk about discipline to those with older kids. it feels like she was on a mission to promote them! :

great response, mama!

[georgia]

angelcat,

Thank you for clarifying As far as judgementalness goes, I'm sorry to hear you've felt judged here.

In an effort to keep this thread about the OP, I'd ask that any further questions or comments for angelcat be taken to PM.

Thanks, everyone

[Momtwice]

You might want to look into LLL's policy about gentle discipline called "loving Guidance." I don't think it was necessarily appropriate for the leader to tell you she used to spank unless she said she never does it anymore or unless it was outside the meeting. You might want to look at the website and consider acting on that.
http://www.lalecheleague.org/llleade...pOct94p69.html

And I would suggest leting go of worrying that your kid being wild supposedly negates the value of AP. To me AP is about unconditional love and guiding kids gently whether they are perfect or not. AP is not about creating perfect children.

[sparklefairy]

Originally Posted by Pandora114

I woulda said "thanks! I could use this as kindling" accepted it, and acctually used it as kindling.

Nothing wrong with a nice toasty fire on a cold winter night.

I was going to say the same thing!

It's snowing here. . .

[Momtwice]

I edited my post up above (number 30) so please read it again

[RiverSky]

Thank you for your response, angelcat.

Originally Posted by angelcat

I don't disagree with all asopects of ap, just some, and the judgmentalness I've seen. Not by everyone, but by enough.

Please don't confuse AP with message board antics. AP has nothing to do with that. Probably every message board that exists has its whacky moments including members coming across as "judgmental", including but not exclusively MDC.

To the OP, mysweetw&e, how sad & shocking, especially at an LLL meeting. You would hope to go to LLL and be immune to that sort of thing. Wow!

Originally Posted by seawillow

I unfortunately am in a close relationship with a Pearl-following mom -- she and her husband did start hitting their infant at younger than 5 months, eventually injuring their baby and requiring intervention by family members. That incident and later injuries still have not stopped them from rigidly following all kinds of advice from the Pearls.

Oh my, that is heart breaking.

[mysweetw&e]

Originally Posted by seawillow

I applaud you for speaking up. I unfortunately am in a close relationship with a Pearl-following mom -- she and her husband did start hitting their infant at younger than 5 months, eventually injuring their baby and requiring intervention by family members. That incident and later injuries still have not stopped them from rigidly following all kinds of advice from the Pearls. Your input may not change this mom's mind, but if you can bring yourself to continue to stay in contact, you at least have a chance to provide her with a different perspective. I know the Pearls don't fit all the many definitions of a cult, but they do have some cult-like aspects, in my opinion:

Thank you SO much for replying, and huge (((HUGS))). It must be so heartbreaking to watch her do this to her own child. How is it that she hasn't stopped associating with you, even though you don't agree? Have you seen anything you have done make a difference (and even a little "aha" moment that isn't acted on could make a difference). Does she do it in front of other people? My concern with this is, were I to invite her to my house I would be very afraid that she might hit her son, at which point I know my son would lose it and would very likely be traumatized for a long time. That's just not something I'm willing to risk. I tried talking with her on the phone (before I knew about the Pearl thing) and unfortunately she called in the middle of a jumping-on-the-bed marathon, so of course my kids were trying to get my attention the whole time and I had to cut it short. Do you just stay close and model a different way or do you actually talk about discipline in general, or what she is doing in particular?

It's nice to be able to talk to someone in the thick of it, although I really wish this wasn't something you had to deal with. I also appreciate the other info on the Pearls, those were things I didn't know.

(((HUGS))) again!

[mysweetw&e]

Originally Posted by Momtwice

You might want to look into LLL's policy about gentle discipline called "loving Guidance." I don't think it was necessarily appropriate for the leader to tell you she used to spank unless she said she never does it anymore or unless it was outside the meeting. You might want to look at the website and consider acting on that.
http://www.lalecheleague.org/llleade...pOct94p69.html

Thank you very much for the link, it really helped! The leader and I have talked about this stuff alot outside of meetings, and it was my idea to talk about discipline at a meeting because I feel like I don't have anyone else IRL to talk to (and thought others might feel the same) and surely I would find like-minded mamas at LLL. Sigh. She did say that she stopped spanking because it didn't work, and now sticks to more rewards/punishments (which I personally stay away from but they're better than spanking!) But she had a very rough road with at least one son with intense ADHD and I think she has done amazingly with him, so obviously I'm not saying that what she has done was wrong, just different. Which is one of the things that article was getting at!

I was thinking of letting the leader borrow Easy to Love Difficult to Discipline so we would be on the same page, and then talk about focusing on what you want and choices at the meeting. But maybe it would be better to explain that all behaviors are an attempt to meet a need and that you need to teach the child how to meet the need to stop the behavior. Hmm, I don't know. And I can't really LEAD the meeting. . . And maybe as a group job for me I could review approved gentle discipline books (that I'm reading anyway) and maybe that would help give people a different perspective.

I plan on meeting with people from the AP group an hour away at least a few times before the meeting, so at least I'll have had MY cup filled before the meeting so I'm not disappointed if I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall during it.

Thanks again!

[seawillow]

Don't feel bad ...

[QUOTE=mysweetw&e;6935064]Thank you SO much for replying, and huge (((HUGS))). It must be so heartbreaking to watch her do this to her own child. How is it that she hasn't stopped associating with you, even though you don't agree? Have you seen anything you have done make a difference (and even a little "aha" moment that isn't acted on could make a difference). Does she do it in front of other people?

(((HUGS))) back to you. To answer your questions, I guess my situation is different, because I'm a relative. The relatives and friends who don't agree actually have been threatened by the dad many times with being cut off from contact, and church friendships with those who disagreed were ended. With the relatives, there was enough of a close family connection already existing with the mom that we haven't been totally cut out of their lives. If it was up to the dad I think we would have been, but on this issue the mom seems to have stood up to the dad. For the most part the dad is the one in control, he's the one who decided to follow Pearls, homeschool, how many kids to have, etc. and the mom (who is my relative) believes that she must totally submit. They used to physically punish in front of family but have stopped around those they know don't agree. I feel for you because if it was someone where I was not already extremely emotionally attached to the children, I might be tempted to just avoid the situation, especially if my child was still young enough that I needed to protect her. In your situation, maybe you can try discussion or giving alternative information, and just see how she reacts. In our case, there's a group of relatives and church friends who did various things like that over the years. Sometimes giving the mom alternative parenting materials or carefully suggesting ways to discipline less harshly, modeling different behavior with our own children, maintaining as close and positive a relationship with the mom and kids as the father will permit. At one point the authorities actually did get involved when a real injury occurred, but even that didn't turn the father away from following the Pearls. Eventually they did stop some of the harshest physical punishments, whether what any of us did caused that, or fear of getting caught by authorities again, I'm not sure. I like to think we've had some positive impact. I still worry about the long term effects on the kids, but try to stay as close to them as I'm permitted to be, in hopes having another caring adult in their lives can make some difference, however small. I hope that you don't feel bad, whatever you decide to do. The fact that you care and want to help is commendable. My thoughts and prayers are with you!

[mysweetw&e]

Originally Posted by seawillow

For the most part the dad is the one in control, he's the one who decided to follow Pearls, homeschool, how many kids to have, etc. and the mom (who is my relative) believes that she must totally submit. They used to physically punish in front of family but have stopped around those they know don't agree. I feel for you because if it was someone where I was not already extremely emotionally attached to the children, I might be tempted to just avoid the situation, especially if my child was still young enough that I needed to protect her. In your situation, maybe you can try discussion or giving alternative information, and just see how she reacts. In our case, there's a group of relatives and church friends who did various things like that over the years. Sometimes giving the mom alternative parenting materials or carefully suggesting ways to discipline less harshly, modeling different behavior with our own children, maintaining as close and positive a relationship with the mom and kids as the father will permit.

Thanks again! The possibility of the wife submitting to the husband thing was something my mom had brought up, I've never seen her husband so I have no idea if their relationship is like that or not. She seems to be pretty strong willed, but who knows. I think I've decided to just do as you said, providing alternative materials and ideas, etc. I think I need to continue talking with her at meetings, build up her trust in me, so she knows I'm not just out to criticize her parenting. If she stops coming. . . I don't know. My gut says I need to do something but I guess I'll have to get more creative.

Another thing occurred to me- the ease with which she offered me the book did seem like someone who was offering something from a home business. And she had been talking about trying to find a way to make money from home. . . If she is a "distributor" of their materials. . . geez, I don't know how much hope there is. Sigh. I guess there is always hope, I'll keep reminding myself that.

I bet those kids immensely appreciate your presence, even though they may not be able to say it!