A little bit of obedience, please!

[apmommy76]

Okay...I believe in gentle discipline--totally, but some days I think my 4.5 year old is a monster!!!

What I mean is that I need for him to pitch in more around the house--you know, pick up after himself, help set the table, etc...

The whole "can you help mommy" thing that used to work has worn off. Now he often says, "No thanks."

I can't phrase it like it's a choice if it's not really a choice. I admit that sometimes I would appreciate just having him obey (shudder).

This is NOT an authoritarian house at all. Trust me, but I'm tired of the constant excuses, etc when I tell/ask him to do something that needs to be done immediately.

Thoughts? How do you deal with this?? I want him to be able to express his thoughts and feelings, etc...I want him to be an individual, but it's a fine line...

I just want a little compliance regarding the stuff around the house. He listens well while we're out but hates picking up, etc.

[summerleaf]

Can you make a game out of it? Like maybe set a timer and say "let's race and see how much we can put away before the bell rings" ?

[apmommy76]

been there, done that

I've done all that. I'm a former elementary school teacher so I have MANY tricks up my sleeves.

He's just plain not wanting to comply and I think it's become a power struggle when that's certainly not what I want.

We are currently trying to sell our house so I can't be as relaxed as I normally am about his stuff being out, etc...He really has to pick up before we leave because someone might come over while we're gone, etc..

Originally Posted by summerleaf

Can you make a game out of it? Like maybe set a timer and say "let's race and see how much we can put away before the bell rings" ?

[chfriend]

Here's what works at our house, ymmv. If something seems to be becoming a power struggle, I figure it's not about the thing we're struggling over (picking up). At least here, the struggles are generally over something stupid.

Often, the best thing for me to do is back off entirely and let it play out. Because of my own stubborness, I can only do this if in my own head, it's time limited. So I say to myself, for a week, I'm just going to pick up after my kid.

So dd walks off from her toys and I start to put them away. She wants me to join in the next thing and I say...I'll be able to in a minute, I'm picking this up now. Not mad or anything. Just modeling what I want her to do without nagging and being a pain in her butt.

In your case, is it possible that your ds doesn't want to move? And you've said we need to keep the house picked up so we can sell it....so if he doesn't pick up, you can't sell the house and therefore can't move?

[maya44]

Originally Posted by apmommy76

Okay...I believe in gentle discipline--totally, but some days I think my 4.5 year old is a monster!!!

What I mean is that I need for him to pitch in more around the house--you know, pick up after himself, help set the table, etc...

The whole "can you help mommy" thing that used to work has worn off. Now he often says, "No thanks."

I can't phrase it like it's a choice if it's not really a choice. I admit that sometimes I would appreciate just having him obey (shudder).

Right. You can't phrase it as a choice if its not. In fact doing so is very unfair to your son.

I mean what is wrong with his answer?

I suggest saying something like "I need for you to pick up your toys right now"

and then "actively waiting" (the kind of waiting one does for an elevator) for it to be done.

If he refuses and you don't have time to wait him out, you can do it and tell him "I had to pick up your toys. That is your job and I don't like having to do it. Next time I expect you to pick up your toys.

[apmommy76]

He wants to move...

yes, we're moving to a city where housing is much cheaper, so we'll be able to afford a pool (which he really wants).

Thank you for the advice. When I wrote last night I was feeling frustrated after a long day of, "I promise I'll do it later, Mommy."

[apmommy76]

phrasing

Right. I didn't mean that I was phrasing it as a choice. I'm saying when I used to, he used to comply. It wasn't really a problem because he was in the "help mommy" stage. Now he's almsot 5 and doesn't fall for the "you're such a big helper" stuff.

Originally Posted by maya44

Right. You can't phrase it as a choice if its not. In fact doing so is very unfair to your son.

I mean what is wrong with his answer?

I suggest saying something like "I need for you to pick up your toys right now"

and then "actively waiting" (the kind of waiting one does for an elevator) for it to be done.

If he refuses and you don't have time to wait him out, you can do it and tell him "I had to pick up your toys. That is your job and I don't like having to do it. Next time I expect you to pick up your toys.

[MsChatsAlot]

My ds is the same age. I have just sat down and explained that he is part of this family and being part of a family means he has to help out. He is old enough to help with things and it's not my responsibility to do it all for them. I have not presented it as an option...it is something he is expected to do. However, in the beginning, I did give them the option of which jobs they wanted to do. And once they fully ingrained one chore, then I slowly add another one.

Both of my kids have chores they are expected to do...putting clean dishes away, putting their dirty dishes into the sink, cleaning up their toys, sorting laundry and putting their own clothes away in their room. They know that it is part of their job as a member of the family and 98% of the time they do it willingly and joyfully.

I will not pick up their toys, it is their responsibility to do it. If they are unable or unwilling to accept the responsibility of caring for their toys, they don't have their toys anymore. Much like if I can't accept the responsibility for taking care of the vehicle and making sure it is maintained properly...I simply won't have it anymore.

[apmommy76]

I agree...

I agree with this. I think I may have started too late though.

I think I waited too long to ask him to pitch in. I'll definitely ask my second child to pitch in earlier than I did with him.

We'll just keep working on it. Thanks to everyone for the advice.

[MsChatsAlot]

Originally Posted by apmommy76

I agree with this. I think I may have started too late though.

I think I waited too long to ask him to pitch in. I'll definitely ask my second child to pitch in earlier than I did with him.

We'll just keep working on it. Thanks to everyone for the advice.

I too, started later with the oldest and earlier with the youngest. But both of my kids really like helping out and I've read that kids really do like to feeling like they are contriuting to the family and household. It gives them a sense of purpose and belonging. Start small and add more things over time.

You can also tell him that you now feel like he's old enough to learn about laundry...or dishes....or whatever. Picking up the toys won't be a novel thing or interesting to him....but if he realizes they have to be picked up or they will get broken or lost or thrown out, he may change his mind.

[aussiemum]

I think I waited too long to ask him to pitch in. I'll definitely ask my second child to pitch in earlier than I did with him.

I reckon it's never too late to start to expect that kids help out a bit around the house, so don't think your ds1 has been left behind, okay? 4.5 is a good age to start to learn one skill at a time, properly. I like that idea, rather than giving children a list of things to do right from the start you begin with one & build from there.

Also, I think active waiting works well if you have clear boundaries that you are working within. It seems to work best if you remain neutral/positive in your attitude & don't loose patience. I find that difficult, sometimes.

[hubris]

I hear ya! As much as I love the theory behind unconditional parenting, sometimes there are moments when I really need my child to just plain do what I ask him to do, you know? But mostly, I think that's *my* issue, not his.

Griff is turning 4 and sounds a lot like your son. He has always been pretty tidy, enjoys cleaning up the house, but lately he doesn't seem as entranced by the idea of helping mommy.

When Griff was 2, my DH was having trouble putting aside his own agenda and meeting Griff where he was. I came up with this three-step mental plan for DH, which worked amazingly for him. I asked him to stop and think to himself:
1. Does this have to be done?
2. If yes, does it have to be done NOW?
3. If yes, can it be done another way? Another time?

I'm finding that I now have to revisit my own three-step plan. Often I want something done IMMEDIATELY...but usually, if I'm honest with myself, it doesn't actually have to be done right this second. And if my husband came to me and said "I need you to do this immediately," I'd be annoyed. I wouldn't want to do it. Dude, I'm typing here, can it wait? I'm sure Griffin - and your son - probably feel the same way.

So lately I've tried to be more gentle about it, take a breath, set aside my terribly-important agenda for a minute, and consider that he has an agenda, too. I might say to Griff, "I see this job that needs to be done. Let's make a plan for how we're going to get it done." Then he and I can agree on who does what and when. Usually our plan includes what (usually fun) thing we will do after we're done the work.

[Momma Aimee]

Flame away -------

What is wrong with his answer is that his momma asked him to do something-- you can be GD (try to understand where the child is coming form, not yell, not hit) and still excpet your children to do as they are asked. Heck they don't have to WANT to help -- i do a LOT of chorse i do NOT want to do -- but they need to do.

GD doesn't promise a child they won't have to do stuff they don't want to -- or that they won't have to obey the parents. it promises a non-violent home without threats, hitting, yelling and so on. It promises to respect the child has feeling and wants -- but there is no reason the child wants and feeling need to preclue the child obeying.

"I had to pick up your toys. That is your job and I don't like having to do it. Next time I expect you to pick up your toys.

I do not see how that will help -- child says "well mom picked them up last time, if i wait she will this time too, asnd her not liking it sure doesn't effect me, i don't like it either."

4.5 is old enoughto start loosing stuff if he doesn't help out.

How about "If Momma has to pick up the train it is going int eh closet and you won't be able to play with it"

how about "if you don't have time to set the table for teh family then you don't have time to do X" (insert soemthing HE likes, CD, tv, whatever).

you don't have to yell, or be mean -- it can all be matter of the fact and clam -- but choices have consequences. it can be phrased that way too -- "you chose not to pick up your trains, momma had to do it, so they are in the closet and you can not play wiht them"

(and he is making a choice not to do what you ask -- set table, pick up toys -- so that choice should effect more than the momma is should effect the child too)

Flame away

[apmommy76]

yeah..

Yeah, we do sports, gymnastics, etc...So there's often something fun at the end but he STILL doesn't want to cooperate and pick up. He even tells me straight up that he doesn't like picking up and that it's no fun..LOL but he DOES like mopping.

[MsChatsAlot]

In my mind, having toys to play with are a priviledge, not a right. If my child wants to have toys, he needs to put them away or take care of them. If he doesn't, the toys are gone. It is really that simple.

I agree with someone above. I don't like doing dishes, yet I can't just leave them (unless of course, one of you knows about a dishes fairy that could come help. )

You can tell him, son, here is your choice. You can choose to ENJOY picking up your toys and make it fun....or you can choose to dislike picking up your toys...but the toys will be picked up. Or, you can choose to have toys, but with that choice comes the responsibility of picking them up/taking care of them, or you can choose not have no toys and then there will be nothing to pick up.

[Momma Aimee]

In my mind, having toys to play with are a priviledge, not a right. If my child wants to have toys, he needs to put them away or take care of them. If he doesn't, the toys are gone. It is really that simple.

I agree with someone above. I don't like doing dishes, yet I can't just leave them (unless of course, one of you knows about a dishes fairy that could come help. )

You can tell him, son, here is your choice. You can choose to ENJOY picking up your toys and make it fun....or you can choose to dislike picking up your toys...but the toys will be picked up. Or, you can choose to have toys, but with that choice comes the responsibility of picking them up/taking care of them, or you can choose not have no toys and then there will be nothing to pick up.

well said -- i like how you phrase it "you can choose to enjoy clean up tiem, or not, but it will happen"



so true of LIFE -- I can enjoy cooking dinner, or i can hate it -- but the family still needs dinner....and at dinner time, not "later when i feel like it"

Aimee

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by Aimee21972

Flame away -------

What is wrong with his answer is that his momma asked him to do something-- you can be GD (try to understand where the child is coming form, not yell, not hit) and still excpet your children to do as they are asked. Heck they don't have to WANT to help -- i do a LOT of chorse i do NOT want to do -- but they need to do.

GD doesn't promise a child they won't have to do stuff they don't want to -- or that they won't have to obey the parents. it promises a non-violent home without threats, hitting, yelling and so on. It promises to respect the child has feeling and wants -- but there is no reason the child wants and feeling need to preclue the child obeying.



I do not see how that will help -- child says "well mom picked them up last time, if i wait she will this time too, asnd her not liking it sure doesn't effect me, i don't like it either."

4.5 is old enoughto start loosing stuff if he doesn't help out.

How about "If Momma has to pick up the train it is going int eh closet and you won't be able to play with it"

how about "if you don't have time to set the table for teh family then you don't have time to do X" (insert soemthing HE likes, CD, tv, whatever).

you don't have to yell, or be mean -- it can all be matter of the fact and clam -- but choices have consequences. it can be phrased that way too -- "you chose not to pick up your trains, momma had to do it, so they are in the closet and you can not play wiht them"

(and he is making a choice not to do what you ask -- set table, pick up toys -- so that choice should effect more than the momma is should effect the child too)

Flame away

I'm not the least bit interested in flaming you and honestly find the invitation to bizarre.

Here's my take on this sort of advice. It reminds me of being tired from all night nursing and talking about it....looking for sympathy and maybe some ways to cope. Mostly I got advice about toughing my 4 month old up. Or implications that if I was just a meaner parent, I wouldn't be so tired I could barely function.

I didn't find that helpful. And honestly my internal reaction was a feigned, Oh my goodness, why didn't I think of that! I could just ignore her and sleep through it. Duh!

Sure, we can go ahead and punish our kids for not doing what we want. We can even call it a consequence so it sounds like they are choosing it.

Personally, I got lots of Waldorfy ideas about how to model what I needed from my kids. Looked to see what need they were expressing. Looked at how I was cooperating in setting up a power struggle. Asked myself what hills I was willing to die on. Looked to reinforce our family connections. Read a lot of different ideas. Focused on keeping everyone physically and emotionally safe.

I quit hanging out with the moms who have said "Sometime you just have to be mean to them." [literally] I spent a lot of time thinking about what was influencing me.

The option to throw up your hand, declare "I am the mother" and steal their toys is always there.

I guess I just figured that if the person asking for advice wanted to do that, she wouldn't need to ask for advice.

[apmommy76]

"Your brain will stop working."

K...now my 4 year old is saying that picking up is not good for your body and that it will make your brain stop working!!! LOL

[apmommy76]

Exactly

Right...I come from a teaching background where the child is considered "defiant" and will be written up if they don't comply.

Obviously that's not the kind of parent I am and I really do try to stay away from consequences such as just taking the toys away, etc...I try not to be punitive.

And yes, you are exactly right. I posted here because I was venting and because I was hoping to get some ideas I hadn't thought of yet. The typical consequence would be to take the toys away that he doesn't pick up, etc...I get that but was looking for another more GENTLE answer.

Jan

Originally Posted by chfriend

I'm not the least bit interested in flaming you and honestly find the invitation to bizarre.

Here's my take on this sort of advice. It reminds me of being tired from all night nursing and talking about it....looking for sympathy and maybe some ways to cope. Mostly I got advice about toughing my 4 month old up. Or implications that if I was just a meaner parent, I wouldn't be so tired I could barely function.

I didn't find that helpful. And honestly my internal reaction was a feigned, Oh my goodness, why didn't I think of that! I could just ignore her and sleep through it. Duh!

Sure, we can go ahead and punish our kids for not doing what we want. We can even call it a consequence so it sounds like they are choosing it.

Personally, I got lots of Waldorfy ideas about how to model what I needed from my kids. Looked to see what need they were expressing. Looked at how I was cooperating in setting up a power struggle. Asked myself what hills I was willing to die on. Looked to reinforce our family connections. Read a lot of different ideas. Focused on keeping everyone physically and emotionally safe.

I quit hanging out with the moms who have said "Sometime you just have to be mean to them." [literally] I spent a lot of time thinking about what was influencing me.

The option to throw up your hand, declare "I am the mother" and steal their toys is always there.

I guess I just figured that if the person asking for advice wanted to do that, she wouldn't need to ask for advice.

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by apmommy76

K...now my 4 year old is saying that picking up is not good for your body and that it will make your brain stop working!!! LOL

Oh my goodness that's funny. That does explain a lot about what's happened to my brain though...