Is taking privileges away a good form of GD?

[Bartock]

It seems to be working. Ds has a really close friend across the street, that is also in is K class. They do sleepovers and play at our house or their house a lot. Now we have been doing get three strikes a day and playing privileges get taken away. It really seems to be working, cause I stopped the non GD and nothing else would work. Am I being to unfair doing this, please don't flame me, I'll still pretty new to the GD stuff, just looking for advice.

[Niamh]

Originally Posted by ilovemy2ds

It seems to be working. Ds has a really close friend across the street, that is also in is K class. They do sleepovers and play at our house or their house a lot. Now we have been doing get three strikes a day and playing privileges get taken away. It really seems to be working, cause I stopped the non GD and nothing else would work. Am I being to unfair doing this, please don't flame me, I'll still pretty new to the GD stuff, just looking for advice.

I'm sure you'll get lots of good advice, and I hope you don't get flamed-I hate it when people coming in for help get flamed...it's why I bounce in and out of this forum.

First off, remember (and I'm sure you do, but it bears repeating) that just because something appears to be working does not mean it's a good thing. After all, my mom's spanking appeared to keep us all obedient, but boy howdy...

Ok, here's my absolute base approach for any interaction I have with my daughter-Would I want it done to me? Obviously spanking, yelling, time-outs, making her finish her plate, all fall under a resounding 'No'.

If my dh took privileges away from me because I didn't conform to what he wanted from me, I'd be pretty ticked. I may conform the first few times if he had the control to back up taking my privileges away, but I'd either A) be trying to find a way around it or B)keep conforming out of fear. Neither of these reactions (which are not to hard to pin to a child) are how I want my child interacting with me. So I don't take privileges away.

We do A LOT of explaining the 'whys' behind requests and giving time to adjust ('We're leaving in ten minutes, ok?'). My ILs have a hard time with me because if my child hits theirs I don't insist on a 'sorry' and I don't physically punish my child-I immediately sit down with her-there or in another room if she's too angry-and help her work through whatever she's feeling. Most of the time, though, she doesn't hit unless she's feeling overwhelmed. It's cute to hear a 2 1/2 yr old say "I'm so fustated with you".

And before I forget, here's something I wanted to say when I first read your post...give your child an adjustment period for the GD. He's been used to a different kind of discipline and needs to get used to being respected (that's not meant to be harsh-I just can't figure out any other way to frame it). Give him some time to realize that he's not getting away with stuff but is being treated as a person, not a child.

[4evermom]

In general, I don't believe in taking away privileges but if the kids were playing together at my house and not following the rules or not playing well, I would have no qualms about sending the child home. I wouldn't have it set for an arbritary length of time, just until they could play well together (usually a different day or post nap/meal).

I don't know what things cause you to give your dd a "strike". If it was not picking up, I would say "when the toys are picked up, we'll be able to invite K over to play."

[georgia]

Hey, if anyone sees any flaming in here, please be sure to contact a moderator. It's not okay, and it's certainly not gentle

IME, taking away privileges is simply another form of punishment, and punishment, to me, is ineffective and harmful to both short and long-term cooperative relationships. But, then, to me, GD is a cooperative way of life, not simply a list of inflexible rules that must not ever be broken....

[alegna]

It sounds like punishment to me. I try to avoid punishment whenever possible. That said, I might resort to taking away privileges for a preteen or teen if it was a serious offense and nothing else worked, but at K? No, I'd try to avoid it.

-Angela

[mammal_mama]

Hey, I'm sure not going to flame you, 'cause up 'till about a year ago I took away priveledges, too, with my oldest who is now six. Then I realized this felt wrong, and wasn't any more effective than when I used to just sit down and talk with her. For some bizzare reason, as she grew past the toddler stage I just thought I was supposed to up the ante and give her "consequences" to "make her think."

Since that time I've read Alfie Kohn's "Unconditional Parenting," and one thing I really like about UP is that you see misbehavior NOT as an infraction to be punished but as a problem to be solved -- for you and your child TOGETHER. For problem-solving, I've also gotten a lot of good advice from Faber and Mazlish's "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk."

Now when one of my my daughters misbehaves, I talk with her about how her behavior affects others (i.e. "Your sister felt sad when you pushed her" as well as explaining how pushing can harm others); my toddler's really going through an aggressive phase so I'm trying to constantly watch to prevent incidents, and, if she hurts anyone, to explain how her actions hurt the other person and saying things like, "Do you see your sister's face, how sad she is because you hurt her?" which usually motivates her to comfort the other person.

I also talk about how my daughters' POSITIVE actions affect others -- rather than praising them for being good helpers and the like. Especially with my youngest, I demonstrate gentle, loving ways to touch others -- and when she gives me this sort of caress I describe how happy it makes me feel. When my oldest does helpful things around the house, I describe how her actions've made things easier for me, or how happy and welcomed Daddy'll feel when he walks in the door and sees the clean floor (he has big feet and hates having clutter underfoot).

With my oldest, I've found that working together to solve problems is much better than my old approach of telling her what would happen if she did such-and-such. Today at the breakfast table, for instance, she got mad when I wanted her to get the pancake syrup. She slammed her plate down and could have broken it. After explaining how she could have damaged the plate, and listening as she shared her feelings, I encouraged her to think of ways to express her anger without risking harm to others or damage to property. She came up with several possibilities, such as going outdoors (or into the bathroom) and screaming really loud, throwing rocks in the driveway, throwing dirt at a tree, throwing stuffed animals around ... by the time she'd brainstormed a bit she was no longer angry and didn't feel a need to put her ideas into practice at that moment. We had an enjoyable breakfast.

Kohn explains that rewards and punishments serve to keep kids' attention focused on themselves ("What are the consequences to ME if I do this?"): they're focused on how THEY'LL be rewarded (whether with praise and affection, or a more tangible reward like a sticker or money) for doing the right things, and on how they'll be punished (whether with a spanking, an unpleasant experience like forcible isolation, withdrawal of affection and approval, or loss of a priveldge) for doing the wrong things. So I'm realizing that if I keep punishing and rewarding, I'll deprive my kids of the opportunity (and energy) to focus their attention on what consequences their actions have on OTHERS.

My reason for doing something kind for someone else should be to make that person happy -- not to get recognition (praise) for myself or ensure that my neighbor will give me the same kind of help if and when I need it. I know this and yet it's hard to break myself of my addiction to praise; somehow I've gotten the idea that I'm only lovable and acceptable when I'm "nice," and it's hard for me to move beyond this and feel good about myself just-as-I-am, regardless of performance. I want to give my kids a headstart in this area, so they'll do whatever they do staight from the heart because of a genuine concern for others -- rather than feeling they need to do the right things, and avoid doing the wrong things, to avoid punishment and buy love for themselves.

Of course, I loved my oldest just as much when I used to take away priveledges -- but Kohn says the way kids perceive our love is just as important as the way we're actually feeling. To intentionally cause my child pain or unpleasantness (whether physical or emotional), and make her feel she loses my approval if she doesn't do what I want, is to risk having her feel I don't love her unconditionally. I can't think of any desired outcome that is worth this risk.

I hope what I've shared can be of some help.

[mamaduck]

What do you mean by "3 strikes," exactly? This is hard for me to wrap my head around.

I can't picture my kids doing 3 "bad" things in a day. Certainly they make some choices that turn out poorly for them, and they often have trouble listening, or very frankly -- they wear my nerves down to pretty low! But those are not huge infractions -- that is just being childish. So in terms of "3 strikes," I tend to think big. Like -- stealing, lying, hitting... and if a kid is doing those things 3 times a day -- then there is a big problem there!

Most of the time, if there are behavior issues, we just kind of work through them and figure out what everyone needs to make the situation better.

Occasionally, I will "cancel" something fun that has been planned, or suggest that they seem way to tired and cranky to have a good playdate/activity/whatever. But in those cases, I am honestly concerned that if I send them off with their worst foot foward, then things are not going to go well for them.

[Bartock]

I guess my 3 strikes thing is wrong to, I am using the wrong things he does to give him them, he mostly gets them for not listening after I have asked him several times. : I am never going to get this GD thing.

[mamaduck]

Originally Posted by ilovemy2ds

I guess my 3 strikes thing is wrong to, I am using the wrong things he does to give him them, he mostly gets them for not listening after I have asked him several times. : I am never going to get this GD thing.

I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Just because you are working at this, and you care for him, you deserve a round of applause. Seriously.

For not listening, we use a couple of strategies.
Some things to consider (and maybe you do these things already!)

- Think about reducing the number of demands you make. Kids tune us out if we talk at them too much! A few meaningful requests each day will 'sink in' more readily than a steady stream of words.

- Ask for his attention before you give him instructions, and get on his eye level. Everytime, even for simple things.

- Give him a chance to object to your requests. We tell the kids, "Its okay to argue with us if you don't like what we tell you to do, or not do. But its not okay to ignore us. Its hurtful to ignore anyone!" But that only works for us, because we try to stop what we're doing and listen when they have objections or want to do things another way.

- When you need him to listen and follow through, think of ways that you can make him successful. Offer to help, keep him company, give him control over when or how he is going to follow directions.

Something about keeping track of bad behavior through the day makes me uncomfortable. Not sure I've ever thought this through before, but I think that it would make me feel really tense and worried all the time to have someone counting my mistakes through the day. Whether there was a consequence attached or not!

But I'll repeat what I said before -- cancelling a sleepover because your son is wired up, not listening well, or causing a lot of trouble -- might well be a wise move! I wouldn't send my kid to a sleepover after that kind of a day. So I'm not 100% against your strategy. I just wonder if your rational and your language need a little tweaking.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

First, this stuff takes time and attention and constant thought to make work. DO NOT beat yourself up for trying. It takes trial to find the right way for you and your child. And it takes time and attention. Its hard to change a negative pattern, so pat yourself on the back for working on it.

I think there are certainly times when cancelling a playdate or sleepover would make a lot of sense -- when your child isn't likely to be a good friend, when he is tired and whiny and having temper problems, when he's demonstrating that he's not being cooperative in getthing things done so you can host a friend, that sort of thing. But then its easy to say "You are very tired (or whatever) and so having a playdate isn't a good idea because you wont be much fun". That is, for me, a direct logical consequence. But saying "You can't have a playdate because you didn't put your laundry in the hamper, feed the cat, and turn off the TV when I asked (as totally random examples pulled from the air) doesn't make much sense to me. It seems arbitrary and punitive. And it is also inposing an unrelated consequence much later in the day, which is rarely effective in the long-term with young children.

I don't have any problem with natural (best) or logical (second best but sometimes necessary IMHO) consequences. I think they are part of life. But I do try to make them directly and clearly related to the problem behavior and as immediate as possible. So if I were you I would look at each individual "strike" and figure out if its really worth the effort of working with (when you take a step back, some things just aren't) and, if so, then figure out a more directly related consequence that you can implement immediately.

[Enchanted Gypsy]

Hi there,
What I am learning is that there are many types of GD, and some include consequences, in particular logical consequences and natural consequences.I encourage you to look into this some more, and not just take the word of a few people on this forum. GD, Im finding is not just about letting your kids do whatever they want, all the time reragdless of what you ask them.GD can and does include consequences. Maybe not exactly like you are doing though.

Please see the following articles, that explain certain points well,though I do not personally agree with all of it (especially some of the natural consequence examples, seem a bit harsh to allow)

http://www1.dshs.wa.gov/ca/fosterpar...tlog/nat01.htm

http://www.fresnofamily.com/ap/gentle.htm

Good Luck and much Love n Light to you ~ Pixie

[thismama]

Taking away privileges is not my first strategy, but for me I believe it can be an effective GD tool.

[Wugmama]

Don't get discouraged! We all want to be the best parents we can be - we all want to improve. Little by little you will get closer and closer to being the parent you want to be. It is a process! You obviously love your kids a lot and are on you way!

I know for myself, being a mom is a real process, I am constantly learning new things and learning how to apply them to my own situation. You will too. Don't get down on yourself, you certainly are not a bad mom the way things are right now, and you only plan to get better!!!

s
Tracy