OK, so what do I need to know? - Page 2

[AileenM]

Um, wow! I didn't mean to spark a debate...I appreciate all of the info.

[maxmama]

Originally Posted by LongIsland

Yes, of course. However, I would make a wager that the chance of having one or both parents compatible with their chidlren for transfusion is higher than the chance of getting Hep B contaminated blood.

And of having sex with a carrier, or of needing medical care while traveling in a Hep-B endemic country, or of ever working in health care, or of being exposed while in school to the blood/body fluids of a carrier, and...

This is the Selective and Delayed forum, remember. People here do choose vaccination sometimes, and there are a lot of reasons to consider hep B.

[mamakay]

As for social responsibility, how would you feel if your child gave measles to someone with a comprised immune system?

Actually, that would make me wonder why the FDA wasn't asking Merck why their product doesn't work as well as advertised. We found out during the mumps epidemic (that's still going on) that the mumps portion of the MMR is actually (according to the director of viral diseases for the CDC) only 50-70% effective. Not 98% as advertised. And 50-70% is well below the threshold for an epidemiological shift, which is exactly what's happening with mumps.
So if my kid happens to be one individual in a long string of people who the vaccine fails in for measles, I'm going to be very skeptical of the claim that it's the result of a bunch of 1% vax failure people coincidentally happening to be around each other and infecting each other.

[mamakay]

Speaking of totally outlandish scenarios....

https://www.sgm.ac.uk/pubs/micro_today/pdf/050005.pdf

Hepatitis B is effectively a sexually transmitted disease
in developed countries, but is endemic in other parts of
the world such as Africa, or particularly China.

Hepatitis B vaccines were initially targeted at specific at
risk groups, including healthcare workers and business
travellers, and were made either from antigen from the
plasma of infected donors or from antigen expressed in
genetically modified organisms, such as yeast. They were
(and remain) expensive, but have now been incorporated
into global vaccination programmes, including universal
usage in most developed countries as the impact on
incidence following targeted use was not great. The
usage in developed countries can therefore subsidize that
in developing countries, but only if valid and recognizable
uses in wealthy markets exist

I think "valid and recognizable" is rather subjective and open to personal interpretation here.

[LongIsland]

Originally Posted by Firsttimepreggers

I appreciate all of the info.

Do you need the California immunization exemption information for daycare/school?

[AileenM]

Well I guess I could use that...I am hoping to homeschool, but that is still an issue that DH and I are hashing out.

[huggerwocky]

Originally Posted by LongIsland

Of course she'll hear this argument. This is a typical ped scaremongering line, reaking of desperation in order to get the parent to comply.

The OP's child has a better chance experiencing a serious Hep B vaccine reaction than:

1. Getting into a car accident
2. Both parents are in the vehicle
3. Both parents AND the child are severely injured in this car accident and the parents are unable to donate blood
4. The infant requires a blood transfusion from this accident
5. AND the blood required for transfusion is contaminated with Hep B

really...so what exactly are the numbers ?

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by huggerwocky

really...so what exactly are the numbers ?

Wouldn't those numbers be nearly impossible to calculate because of their smallness?

Doesn't it seem kind of odd to you that a universal immunization program to subsidize making a vaccine less expensive for China is going with undocumented hypothetical scenarios for it's rationalization?

ETA:
And that's an honest question. I'm not being snarky. I look at that and think "Wow. Vaccine manufacturers have finally found their holy grail for unnecessary vaccine marketing. All they have to do is find any bizarre hypothetical scenario they can imagine, and immunization with that vaccine in the US will become compulsory, as long as a disease is a real problem on some other continent on earth."

And as long as the CDC says "Well, we don't believe blablabla adverse reaction exists", then it's not factored into the analysis.

Is this really what you signed up for?

ETAA:
This is the way bioethicists are thinking of things now days.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=557554

Vaccinating kids at school so they don't have to have parental consent.
Call me crazy, but I'm not ok with this kind of ethical juggling on the part of the state at all.

[LongIsland]

Originally Posted by mamakay

All they have to do is find any bizarre hypothetical scenario they can imagine, and immunization with that vaccine in the US will become compulsory, as long as a disease is a real problem on some other continent on earth."

And parents lap up the hypothetical scenerios, much to the CDC's delight. Infants and children are not even close to being a high risk group, so ped's have to say something in order to get reluctant parents to comply.

The blood transfusion, the bite at daycare, the needle in the darkened movie theatre, the shopping cart, the toilet seat . . .

[LongIsland]

From the CDC "Fact Sheet" on Hepatitis B:

HBV is spread through having sex with an infected person without using a condom (the efficacy of latex condoms in preventing infection with HBV is unknown, but their proper use may reduce transmission), by sharing drugs, needles, or "works" when "shooting" drugs, through needlesticks or sharps exposures on the job, or from an infected mother to her baby during birth.

There's a reason why there's no mention of the hypothetical car accident and blood transfusion, the bite at daycare, the darkened movie theatre with a needle on the seat . . .

Also from the fact sheet:

HIGH RISK GROUPS
*Persons with multiple sex partners or diagnosis of a sexually transmitted disease
*Men who have sex with men
*Sex contacts of infected persons
*Injection drug users
*Household contacts of chronically infected persons

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by LongIsland

And parents lap up the hypothetical scenerios much to the CDC's delight.

The blood transfusion, the bite at daycare, the needle in the darkened movie theatre, the shopping cart . . .

And if actual statistics to fearmonger with even existed, my god, we'd know them by heart. But they don't even exist!

Who is it...exactly...who'd deciding what a "valid" reason is here? Is "recognizable" meaning "at some point in history it's bound to happen somewhere"?
Who are these people making these decisions and working out these deals?
The same people saying HepB demyelination doesn't exist?

[LongIsland]

Originally Posted by mamakay

And if actual statistics to fearmonger with even existed, my god, we'd know them by heart. But they don't even exist!

B
I
N
G
O
!

But Junior NEEDS that shot before he leaves the hospital.

[mamakay]

And look at how the HepB vax is "sold" to pediatricians:
(I found this by going on the AAP site, clicking on the "for doctors" section, and then choosing the vaccine/disease -- risk/benefit chart.

http://www.cispimmunize.org/ill/ill_main.html
The only thing they list as a possible reaction is an extremely rare yeast allergy.
WTH?

[mykdsmomy]

Originally Posted by lenore80

And I do. As well as you should keep your child isolated if they have a VPD.

why would you need to isolate your child when they have a vpd if everyone else is vaccinated?

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by LI

And parents lap up the hypothetical scenerios, much to the CDC's delight.

I just have to say one more thing.
I would imagine that the provaxers are thinking "If this wasn't a real risk, my ped would NOT have recommended this vaccine, or explained it to me in this way."

But what your ped is thinking is "If this wasn't a real risk, the AAP and the CDC wouldn't recommend it."

Let's nevermind the AAP for a second. That's complicated. Let's just look at the CDC.

Imagine you're a decision maker at the CDC. You care about children. All children. You want to save lives. You believe in vaccines.
And imagine this notion is proposed to you.
Mandate this vax in the US.
It will result in millions of lives being saved all over the world.
Millions of lives.
Do you do it?
If you say no, then the blood of millions of lives is on your hands.
You could have saved those babies in China, but you chose not to.
And who knows? Maybe every once in a while a child in the US does get infected with Hep b in one of these weird, generally unlikely ways. Nobody knows how often it happens, but the theory sounds plausible enough.
Do you want that death on your hands, too?
What do you do?

Now...there's a nasty rumor floating around that the HepB vax sometimes causes MS. But the manufacturer says it's not true.
And running a loose risk/benefit analysis in your head, even if it does happen, it's rare. It's nothing compared to the millions of lives in China.

What do you do?

[poetesss]

Well, OP, since you didn't really ask for a Hep B discussion I"ll just bypass that side discussion except to say: if you do decide on it, I'd personally suggest delaying the birthdose. Even the CDC says in it's 1 page vaccine schedule that newborns of hepB negative moms can skip that one (in rare cases they say, without specifying when--A cover your butt statement IMO).

With regards to the others, I think Angela's approach is great--research both the disease and the vax. the CDC has published the reported occurences of these diseases by year as well as state. Plus research how dangerous these diseases really are. Keep in mind the historical context--we were raised without chickenpox vaxxing and didn't live in fear. WHy should we fear the disease today? The same discussion that is going on now about HPV and the new Gardasil vax (i.e. why vax against an STD?) was done about HepB. The cycle continues. Soon Gardasil will be required and we'll see that the discussions will eventually end and people will forget that there was ever a problem in the first place! History is doomed to repeat when people don't look at what has passed.

Consider if you will be doing any international travel and if so, when and where.

Remember that getting one of the VPD's is a possibility, but when you inject a vax into your child, it is an absolute that you have put in him/her certain things that you cannot take out. Make sure you know what these things are and ask yourself if you are comfortable accepting the risk of doing so.

Ok sorry for the ramble...it's a hard decision. I ended up making some decisions/compromises (i.e. because of my husband's views) and I'm still not sure about what's right for my child. I wish it could be an easier decision.

[mama2mygirl]

Even my dd's ped. pointed out how silly Hep B. By the time your baby is likely to be at risk--as a teenager or adult--the vax isn't even going to work.
Of course, this is the same practice where an old dr.--since retired--literally went into the NICU room where they were about to give my daughter the Hep B vax, chased the nurse out of the room waving his arms and yelling, "The baby doesn't need that!!!!"(I was in a NICU haze--why I didn't say it in time myself.)

[gilamama]

Originally Posted by lenore80

And I do. As well as you should keep your child isolated if they have a VPD.

live virus vacines stay in your system for about 6 months, thats a long isolation

[Twinklefae]

Hep B

Okay,

While I can't find any evidence of it anywhere, my coworker swears up and down that you can get Hep B from places like dirty dentists, nail clippers etc. And her mom has it, so you can see why I'm listening.

Has anyone else heard about this?

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by Twinklefae

Okay,

While I can't find any evidence of it anywhere, my coworker swears up and down that you can get Hep B from places like dirty dentists, nail clippers etc. And her mom has it, so you can see why I'm listening.

Has anyone else heard about this?

In theory that's true, but documented cases of it actually happening are very, very rare.