About to throw in the towel - Page 3

[dharmamama]

Thank you, everyone, for all your thoughtful replies. It really helps lighten the load just to share.

Someone asked why we took on a 12-year-old girl. Sometimes, in my darker moments, I ask myself the same question! But the answer is that when we met Desta (while we were in Ethiopia to bring home our son), we knew she was our daughter. Sometimes people who haven't adopted don't understand when we tell them, "When you meet your children, you know who they are," but that's been the truth for us. Aside from all these adjustment difficulties, Desta truly is a remarkable kid. She has a fantastic sense of humor, she can be very kind to younger kids, she's extremely craft-oriented (a bonus of having her here is that I am discovering my inner crafter and we are learning all kinds of new crafts together), and it's a real delight to me to see how she interprets things that to me and my other kids are "old hat" about life in America. As I mentioned earlier, it's not all doom and gloom. We do have some very fun times together, and my goal is to increase the frequency of those good times.

We have only been to the counselor three times. We go again tomorrow. Dh and I have a counselor and Desta has a counselor and every so often we will all meet together. I am hopeful that this will be helpful to us all. We are still in the "assessment" phase and we haven't gotten to the "strategies" phase, but I am eagerly awaiting that because I really feel like I need more guidance on some tried and true tactics for dealing with older adopted kids.

Thanks again to everyone who responded. I really, really appreciate your time and interest.

Namaste!

[chaos_pie]

I have read through this thread, and thanks so much for sharing so much of yourself, and your thoughts. And to you.

It sounds to me like you are feeling frustration with not only the schooling but how Desta is functioning as a family member. Both roles right now sound like huge jobs so I am wondering if you can offset the teacher role. What about just having a tutor or your husband take over the teacher role for a few months while you re-charge. I know you said that money was an issue, but I am wondering if you could hire a tutor for a couple hours a week, someone to simply to go through a bit in the workbooks that you already have and then assign work for the rest of the week that your husband then help her with. Possibly even a senior in high school could work out (it sounds like she just needs someone to sit with her both to help her with the work but also just help her feel secure in doing the work).

It also sounds important for her to know that you are not rejecting her because somebody else will be doing the educating role but that you want to work on being a mom with her at this point.

I will be hoping that you find some ways to make a change so that you feel better.

[littlest birds]

I agree with previous posters that what you are facing is a common level of negative attitude and general conflict for a 12yo. Our oldest is 12yo, and her siblings start at 5yrs younger: 7yo, 7yo, and 4yo. I have expected certain daily chores and assistance with other things by request from her for several years. However, her siblings have just gotten bed-making and pet-feeding down. She has long resented the feeling of inequality and she is pretty noisy about her feelings.

We do get into arguments over the things I expect, the general standards I have for honesty, following through, being careful, respecting others' different needs, etc. It can be extremely frustrating. We've done school--she homeschooled 4yrs before going to sixth grade for one year. Now she is back home for seventh. I felt a lot better about having her, as she is academically ahead of average, in ps than I do about having her brother, who has severe social deficiencies and language processing problems and other challenges in school. What I saw in him was a lot of stress that he kept to himself but that exhibited itself in extreme vulnerability to illnesses. (Among other things he had shingles last year after having had natural chicken pox before--stress was the only obvious contributing factor.) He doesn't know how to defend himself from bullies, he's very vulnerable, and yet he also does not--perhaps cannot--initiate communication about such problems with me or other adults who could help him. I would NEVER hear about his problems, his stress, his pain. He acted like he enjoyed school when he was there but he told me he would not want to return...

Anyhow, the point I intended to get to is that I can't really conceive of sending my special needs to ps--he is the toughest child in my family to deal with on a daily basis. He makes teen moods seem like the easy life. Sigh. Still, he would never feel good about himself, never feel that he was adequate compared to other children, never feel comfortable... It is too sad a possibility for his every day. And if he is enrolled then legally I can't even keep him home a day or two if he's just run down or I think he needs a break due to attendance policies. It is too much to adapt to for us.

With our 12yo dd I am clear that I am not going to over haul our lives, send her to school, in overreaction to arguing. It is very tiring to spend time in conflict, but I really don't feel it is the right reason to change our lifestyle. We'd lose too much, and we'd still have the conflicts.

Actually, I felt that dd was tougher to get along with when she wailed about her clothing, her feelings of being left out or mistreated by friends, her frustration with teacher unfairness, her feeling that she ought to have a boyfriend and all the other things that she brought home from school. These things are gone now. She still finds plenty to complain about but I am glad it's not those particular things.

[umami_mommy]

sounds just like my stepdaughter, who wasn't raised in an ophanage, BTW.

i might try more freedom at this point, not less. but that's just me... like "this is what you need to get done, what are your ideas about doing it?"

or something like this. i'm into consensual living and so i might have different solutions that you.

i also might ask her what it is she is really wanting right now. and give the counseling some time. sounds like she has a full plate and so do you.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

But at least I won't be living with her bad attitude all day. :

Hm... Have you considered the kinds of attitudes and other things she might bring home from schoolmates around her age? She could be pretty impressionable. And you'll be having to help her with homework at the end of long days - which is much worse than the small homeschooling struggles you're going through now in the mornings...

It sound pretty complicated. I'm wondering what kind of situation brought her to the orphanage, and how that might be affecting her moods today, including the way she views the unfairness with the little ones. And I was reminded of a TV show I saw years ago that brought in six families who had adopted children as babies and had watched them quite inexplicably turn hostile as they got into prepubescent ages and older. She isn't like that - they were exceptionally hostile - but the thing that was brought out was that all those families discovered at some point after the hostility started that the chlldren had been abused and/or neglected as babies or toddlers and that the mistrust and anger at the primary caretakers resurfaced in later childhood. They were all absolutely delightful with all but the primary caretakers.

Even if her circumstances weren't like that, she obviously has had some trauma in her life, so it wouldn't seem unlikely that things could come bubbling up at her age, especially since she's watching your own children having the kind of life and direct, uninterrupted, parental love and support that she wasn't able to have. And - as others have said - she's 12, an intense time of life under the best of circumstances, especially when you take into consideration the hormonal changes alone...

It's obviously difficult , and I sure admire you for what you're doing, but maybe she just needs more time for healing - her life has been in upheaval for such a long time. When you consider that a child just coming out of an average classroom into a homeschooling situation needs a lot of decompression time, it would stand to reason that a child who's been through as much as she has would need a lot more. - Lillian

[lizzie]

You have a beautiful family, and I think it sounds like you're doing a beautiful job with them!! I don't have anything like the experience you're dealing with to draw on, just one thought:

The only other thing that was sort of touched on, but not too much, in other posts, is that while you did say you've been struggling with these things for awhile, perhaps it's intensifying lately?

I have friends, several, who are missionaries in a few other countries, and they've all talked about how somewhere in the 6-10ish month mark, the "culture shock" hits, (sort of like a desperate longing to be back where you came from/homesickness type feeling) and no matter how much they love where they are, no matter how similar (doesn't seem to matter whether they're in England or Azerbaijan) the country or culture is, no matter how happy they are to be there or how well supported they feel in their new home, the effect of the culture shock can be devastating. Sometimes is just mildly annoying, but it affects their ability to function at worst, and throws their attitude towards being there in the country for a loop, at best.

Sort of like PPD... you want the baby, you love the baby, you have everything you'd ever hoped you'd have in life, but you are miserable and can't make anything work right, yk? It can start to feel like a vicious cycle?

Then I thought that kind of sounds like what a child who has been in an orphanage in an extremely poor country with a lot of instability might be thinking... "Here I am, wonderful family, amazing parents, safe home, safe life, love everywhere, plenty of food, material things, but I feel sad, scared, and angry, and I can't make it work, and that's scary, and it makes me more sad, more angry"... plus grieving for her other life, regardless of how hard it may have been. AND she's twelve, and the hormones are working... everything the other posters have said.

No tips for handling it any better than you already are, but maybe that's part of what's going on with her. She may not want to tell you about her grieving or fear... afraid you'll feel rejected, or if she tells you she misses her home in Ethiopia that you'll "let" her go back, just because she knows you are so focused on helping her to get the things she wants, helping her to make choices?

FWIW... I wouldn't think school would really have much to offer her, between all you've said about it and the idea that she may feel rejected, or too separate from you, particularly if she's not secure enough for "drop off" style classes.

And again... I have no experience!! The good news is that my missionary friends just keep on keepin' on, and in a few weeks/months, the culture shock goes away, and one day you just realize you *are* home. You guys are just an amazing family. Lots of love and hope for solutions to you all!


lizzie

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by lizzie

Then I thought that kind of sounds like what a child who has been in an orphanage in an extremely poor country with a lot of instability might be thinking... "Here I am, wonderful family, amazing parents, safe home, safe life, love everywhere, plenty of food, material things, but I feel sad, scared, and angry, and I can't make it work, and that's scary, and it makes me more sad, more angry"... plus grieving for her other life, regardless of how hard it may have been. AND she's twelve, and the hormones are working... everything the other posters have said.

Wow - that's what I was thinking too, but at a loss of words to say. Lizzie's a very good word person. Lillian

[lizzie]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

Wow - that's what I was thinking too, but at a loss of words to say. Lizzie's a very good word person. Lillian

How sweet are YOU?? ... Now if could just master that whole "brevity" concept!


lizzie

[mommy68]

I think she is just being "12" as well. My oldest DS is 11 and he can be very much the same way your daughter is acting, and he goes to a private school outside the home. I would just keep working at it, 7 months is a very short period of time and I'm sure she has had a lot of adjustments to make in all areas of her life, not just school.

I also agree that it can be compared to PPD. You are a new mom so there's a lot to take in to consideration and a lot of changes going on for you as well. I just wouldn't push the schooling at this point. I'd keep urging her to read and do the basics here and there but I wouldn't get REALLY in to it at this point. Just enjoying getting to know her and ease her in to life with her new family. Maybe taking her on some local field trips would help as well, help her get more in to her new culture.

ITA with someone else that school outside the home probably wouldn't be any better. Atleast at home she is with you everyday, giving her even more of a chance to connect to you. If she had to go outside the home to school you would miss out on those 6-7 hours with her each day and she would have to acclimate herself to that climate as well with a bunch of strange kids her age.

[dharmamama]

FWIW... I wouldn't think school would really have much to offer her, between all you've said about it and the idea that she may feel rejected, or too separate from you, particularly if she's not secure enough for "drop off" style classes.

ITA with someone else that school outside the home probably wouldn't be any better. Atleast at home she is with you everyday, giving her even more of a chance to connect to you. If she had to go outside the home to school you would miss out on those 6-7 hours with her each day and she would have to acclimate herself to that climate as well with a bunch of strange kids her age.

Yeah, I know, and these are some of the main reasons we decided to homeschool her, but I can't help thinking that the vast majority of older internationally adopted kids begin school within a few weeks and they usually seem to do pretty well. I kinda feel like if she weren't able to be with, cling to, and complain to me all day, she'd learn to adjust better. I don't know whether that's true or not, but most of the people I know who put their kids in school are not still having the extreme attention-seeking and clinging and insecure behaviors we are, and their kids all seem pretty happy. I almost feel like, by having her home, I am encouraging her to continue to act this way. I also feel like the vast majority of older adopted kids do not experience a long interruption in their schooling, and I am not sure that's the best idea for Desta either.

I feel like I am struggling with two competing ideas: try to normalize her life as much as possible, getting her into the flow of what her life really will be like, or throwing all that aside and just working intensively on attachment and letting the rest come. Both of those ideas sound like good ones to me, and the fact that most adoptive parents of older kids choose the former and their kids seem to flourish really has me doubting myself.

I don't know. I have kinda dropped the idea of putting her in school because I feel like it'll be one headache after another, but instead of being within the family it will be involving some government institution, and I really don't want that.

Someone mentioned to me that HIV can cause cognitive and psychological issues and suggested that we have a neuropsych evaluation. I think that is an excellent idea. Maybe it would be like killing a fly with a nuclear bomb, but then again, it's possible that her difficulty with organizing herself and completing tasks could be part of an HIV-related cognitive issue.

I really think that annethcz hit the nail on the head with her idea that Desta needs the consistency, the sameness of having her set morning routine. I hadn't really thought of it before, but when things were more relaxed around here, the days did not have that sameness to them that she seems to benefit from. I started lessons mainly to give Desta something to do and give the little kids a break from her, not to provide consistency, but consistency seems to be a huge benefit for everyone involved. We are now on "winter break" from homeschooling because we have family in for the holidays, and Desta was completely at loose ends yesterday. In just one day of not having her morning routine, she completely reverted to the way she was the first two months she was here: sitting on the couch staring into space, wandering around the house for over an hour doing nothing, asking me what to do next every time she changed activities, talking nonstop about nothing in particular, sucking her thumb, etc. It was really quite shocking.

Anyway, I appreciate your continuing ideas and support.

Namaste!

[alegna]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

Yeah, I know, and these are some of the main reasons we decided to homeschool her, but I can't help thinking that the vast majority of older internationally adopted kids begin school within a few weeks and they usually seem to do pretty well. I kinda feel like if she weren't able to be with, cling to, and complain to me all day, she'd learn to adjust better. I don't know whether that's true or not, but most of the people I know who put their kids in school are not still having the extreme attention-seeking and clinging and insecure behaviors we are, and their kids all seem pretty happy. I almost feel like, by having her home, I am encouraging her to continue to act this way. I also feel like the vast majority of older adopted kids do not experience a long interruption in their schooling, and I am not sure that's the best idea for Desta either.

I wonder with those other older adoptees who are in school and "doing fine" if they're not just supressing attachment and dealing issues until later? I wonder if Desta isn't just on a fast-track to get all of it out of her system?

Just thinking aloud- could be totally off.

Sounds like you've hit on something with the routine.

good luck!

-Angela

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

We are now on "winter break" from homeschooling because we have family in for the holidays, and Desta was completely at loose ends yesterday. In just one day of not having her morning routine, she completely reverted to the way she was the first two months she was here: sitting on the couch staring into space, wandering around the house for over an hour doing nothing, asking me what to do next every time she changed activities, talking nonstop about nothing in particular, sucking her thumb, etc. It was really quite shocking.

But they're not her family - so she's back to being somewhat of an outsider in spite of the fact that everyone's probably being very kind to her, and they're probably even having a hard time doing that well because she's acting so strangely... - Lillian

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by alegna

I wonder with those other older adoptees who are in school and "doing fine" if they're not just supressing attachment and dealing issues until later? I wonder if Desta isn't just on a fast-track to get all of it out of her system?

And I'm wondering if they're really doing all that fine on the inside - and if the parents aren't necessarily picking up signals where things aren't really all that fine. It could be that they keep they're feelings to themselves and don't feel close enough to the parents to dump on them as much. If an adoptive child comes here and goes straight into school, there could be a similarity between that kind of scenario and one in which a family just takes in an exchange student - there's a certain amount of distance that's built into the relationship. I'm just tossing in some possibilities to consider - not saying that's the way it is - but I just can't help but wonder... - Lillian

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

But they're not her family - so she's back to being somewhat of an outsider in spite of the fact that everyone's probably being very kind to her, and they're probably even having a hard time doing that well because she's acting so strangely... - Lillian

Well, actually, they were not here during the day. We only saw them in the evening. And they are family she has met before and really enjoys being with.

Namaste!

[Starr]

I do know that our agency had told us ahead of time that even though we brought Olivia home as a baby, around the holidays she may act out of sorts and grieve. They couldn't explain it but said it was pretty common in children adopted. That could explain for her behaviour yesterday. You said you were taking a break from homeschooling for a little while. Maybe use the time to reorganize and develope a stricter routine for Desta. Let her know that "school" begins at this time so you need to be up, dressed, and have your chores done by that time. Maybe putting a little pressure on wouldn't hurt. If you say school starts at 9 and by 9 she is still doing chores, tell her its time to stop because school needs to start and she will have to finish her chores during her off or free time. Or something similar to that. You said you have family up for the Holidays, could they take Desta or the kids out for an afternoon so you have time to yourself? Sometimes even an hour break can be a big difference.

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by Starr

Let her know that "school" begins at this time so you need to be up, dressed, and have your chores done by that time. Maybe putting a little pressure on wouldn't hurt. If you say school starts at 9 and by 9 she is still doing chores, tell her its time to stop because school needs to start and she will have to finish her chores during her off or free time.

This is what we have been doing for the last six weeks, and in terms of her general behavior and functioning in the family, things have improved a great deal. Of course now she grumbles and groans about getting up, doing chores, and doing her schoolwork, but given the choice between the way things were and the way things are now, I'll take the griping and groaning of now.

Namaste!

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

And they are family she has met before and really enjoys being with.

Yes, but isn't that all the more reason to long on some level for her own such family? I'm just imagining how I would feel - maybe she's different.... - Lillian

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

Of course now she grumbles and groans about getting up, doing chores, and doing her schoolwork, but...

One thought that popped into my mind - if she's grumbling about getting up, maybe she isn't getting enough restorative sleep, and that's partly affecting her mood, since she's coming into an age when these things do change? I just posted links to some articles on teen sleep differences in one of the other threads here. I tried getting into them just now, and one doesn't seem to get to the original article any longer, but here's one that works:

article on teen sleep needs

-Lillian

[UUMom]

I think you're asking all the right questions. It can't be easy in any way.

Try not to rush yourself to a decision. She may be a preteen, but you have a lot of lost family time to make up for. Don't worry about her needing to do academics on tight schedule, or anything that other 12 yr old 'should' be doing, kwim? You folks are free to determine your path and don't let anyone but your family determine how you should procede. However long it takes. She may be 12 chronologically, but she may be a toddler emotionally.

It doesn't make it easier...it makes it harder, but nobody but you all can decide what's best but you all who are living this transistion. I think you're all doing as well as can be expected (better, even, I would imagine) considering the huge upheavel you've all experienced.