Kindergarten fun?!?!?! - rant - Page 5

[mommy68]

deleted by me

[LeftField]

Originally Posted by mommy68

And another thing, I don't think the school system is "labeling" children when they put them in grade levels. It would make absolutely no sense for children to go to school with 1000 other kids in grades k-5 and be all mixed up with some 5, 8 and 10 year olds in one class and in another class there would be some 6, 9 and 12 year olds. It keeps things in order for children to be put in age-appropriate classes. Surely as an adult you should be able to comprehend that.

The fact that they are placed in age appropriate grade levels does not bother me in the least.

Why doesn't it make sense for children to go to school in a mixed-age classroom? Who defines what is an age-appropriate grade level? Children are all so different and just because they share the same birth year does not mean that their needs are equally met in the same grade. Some are always "ahead", "on track" or "behind". I think it would make much more sense to just place children where their needs are best met...that would mean that all 8 year olds would not be in the same grade. That's why the grade concept is weird to many people. We don't all believe grades are age-appropriate fits. Since a reference was made to college, not all college juniors are the same age. Not all first year graduate students are the same age. If it's this way for adults, why can't children's individual needs also be met as such, rather than organizing them by birth year? Who does this keep things in order for? It certainly doesn't keep things in order for all children, as so many don't have their needs met this way. This is why the "grade" concept is awkward for many homeschoolers. I know that my own child is at multiple "grade" levels. If he were in school he would be a kindergartener. But we don't use a kindergarten curriculum at home. He's not a kindergartener to me. He has an individually tailored curriculum that runs across numerous grade levels (some ahead, some behind, and some at K level).

[Dar]

Some of the posts here are a bit heated, so I wanted to pop my mod hat on and remind everyone to post respectfully and keep the rules in mind. Also, the purpose of this forum is to support homeschoolers and homeschooling, and posts that aren't related to that goal probably belong in other forums.

Dar

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by mommy68

I don't think the school system is "labeling" children when they put them in grade levels. It would make absolutely no sense for children to go to school with 1000 other kids in grades k-5 and be all mixed up with some 5, 8 and 10 year olds in one class and in another class there would be some 6, 9 and 12 year olds. It keeps things in order for children to be put in age-appropriate classes. Surely as an adult you should be able to comprehend that.

I agree, except that often schools tend to (a) exercise age-levelled grading when it runs contrary to learning needs and (b) create an artificial and divisive social identity out of that age-levelled grading.

Miranda

[2tadpoles]

Originally Posted by white_feather

I think we need to reframe the idea that it's about the 'ignorant prejudices of others' . . . because often times, it's just people innocently making small talk

When I mentioned "ignorant prejudices," I was referring to the notion that homeschoolers are socially inept.

Originally Posted by white_feather

I do really believe that in most cases being kind is the way to go.

I don't think anyone was advocating being unkind. I was just mentioning that some people are kinder than others, and we shouldn't expect any more or less of homeschoolers as a group.

Originally Posted by mommy68

Your statements are very "out there" IMO. ofcourse you aren't in school at 35

And my kids "aren't in school," either. We've opted out.

Originally Posted by mommy68

why be so angry about it? I guess I just don't get it.

You read too much into things. I never claimed to be angry. I don't go around being ugly to people who ask me questions. I find it irritating, is all. Especially if they're asking just out of a desire to debate, and not because they're truly interested.

Originally Posted by mommy68

When I used to homeschool I think probably 60% of the other parents I knew who homeschooled were very cold and cruel to outsiders about what they did as if they felt guilty for keeping their children at home all day.

That's not been my experience. I've homeschooled for seven years, in three different states. Most of the homeschoolers I've met have been friendly.

Originally Posted by mommy68

why are you so angry about people who ask what grade your child is in? the fact IS that most people do NOT know one single thing about homeschooling and are naive when it comes to homeschooling. why be rude or mean towards them for asking innocent questions?

Once again, you're saying that I'm angry. Where have I said that I'm rude or mean towards others?

As for the rest of your post, where you explain how the way schools do things (grades, etc.) makes complete sense....I don't like the way schools operate, and that is why my kids aren't made to go.

[Britishmum]

Originally Posted by 2tadpoles

Because one reason many of us homeschool is because we don't like the way schools label and group kids by age. Lots of us don't do grades.

It's like if you CD and people constantly ask why your baby isn't wearing Pampers, "like all the other babies." Or if your child is drinking an organic juicebox and people ask why your kid can't drink Hi-C, "like all the other kids." It gets seriously OLD after awhile.



I'm 35 and I'm not in any grade. My kids are 14 and 11, and they aren't in any grade, either.

If someone asked you what grade YOU are in, how would you reply?



Well, to play Devil's Advocate here....

I've met many people who say they'd like to homeschool their kids....but they just can't, because they have to work (I work) or because they aren't patient enough, or not organized enough, or because they wouldn't be able to stand being around their kids all day. Most people who say they'd like to homeschool....really don't want to homeschool. They often just feel insecure about their own choices, and feel the need to justify whatever they're doing.

I've only met ONE person who asked me about homeschooling who actually went on to do it after we talked about it.



No offense, but I really don't have the desire or energy to be a cheerleader for homeschooling. Nobody babysat me through the process; I found out what I needed to know on my own. There is a slew of information out there, between the Internet, public library, bookstores, and local homeschool support groups. If people are seriously interested in learning more about homeschooling, I'd like for them to not stop me in the middle of the supermarket to chat about it.

It's likely he didn't think you are an ignoramus at all. He might be just tired of discussing homeschooling with strangers every time he leaves the house.

What exactly is 'doing grades'? I don't feel that I 'do grades' but I do buy materials and when I buy them, they are organised generally according to grade levels. I sign my children up for classes, and they too are organised according to age or grade levels. As far as I'm concerned, it's simply an organisational thing. If a class advertises itself as for K-2 or age 5-8, it makes no difference to me. Dd knows she's a kindergartener, and if someone asked her, that's what she'd say. She also knows that she's homeschooled, and would say that if anyone asked what school she goes to.

I too rejected PS largely because of the organisation of grades. My dd needs to do math at a second or third grade level and English probably with fifth graders, but also needs to play shop and jump-rope with kindergarteners. However, to throw her in with fifth grade aged kids to read books would be hugely inappropriate for her socially, and there was no school that was going to meet her needs. I don't think that multi-aged classes fit all children, no matter how asynchronous their development. My child would keel over at having to interact with fifth graders. The thought makes me :

However, I still consider her a kindergartener, even though she had mastered the K curriculum two years ago. That's what she is, in my eyes, for organisational purposes.

I don't see why anyone would ask me what grade I"m in, because ordinarily people over the age of 18 don't go to grade school. However, if someone asks me if I have kids, or where I work, or what country I come from, or where I bought my baby carrier, or how many ounces of formula my baby eats, or even if he sleeps through the night, I answer them without finding it irritating, even if I've heard the question a thousand times before. I guess it just doesn't irritate me to answer small talk the way it does some people.


I don't think that being receptive and welcoming to questions requires me to be a cheerleader for any cause. However, I do feel passionate about many of my choices, and if I get the chance to pass on just a little of that to someone I meet, that's a good thing imo.

I do my own research and homework on just about every aspect of my parenting. I don't expect anyone to babysit me, but I have to say that I have been profoundly grateful to those who took the time to answer my questions about homeschooling as I made that decision. I like to think that I can pay that debt forward and be open to others who need help in the future.

To me, it's rather like saying that you won't give money to panhandlers, because some of them are scamming. Maybe of every hundred, a few are probably scamming. But should we treat every one like a scammer? I'd rather know that I gave when I could, and accept that some of my $$s may be 'wasted'. In the same way, I'd rather take time to answer people about homeschooling with patience (both outwardly and inwardly) and accept that some may receive the information with a negative mind. That's their choice - and it feels better to me to welcome questions with an open heart and mind than to allow myself to feel irritated by them.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by Britishmum

What exactly is 'doing grades'? I don't feel that I 'do grades' but I do buy materials and when I buy them, they are organised generally according to grade levels. I sign my children up for classes, and they too are organised according to age or grade levels.

I would say that my kids don't 'do grades,' and, for what it's worth, we don't really do any of the things that you describe. I purposely keep my kids out of age-levelled environments (because they're generally a terrible fit); they don't do 'classes' in anything other than the arts and we don't really do curriculum, at least not in a conventionally grade-levelled sequential way.

Originally Posted by Britishmum

As far as I'm concerned, it's simply an organisational thing. ...

Organization of what, though? For you maybe there's some organizational utility. For us, no -- not of curriculum, nor of classes, nor of social contacts.

Again, I'm not saying it provokes me to anger or annoyance to be asked such a question. It's just that explaining why I can't give a simple answer takes a fair bit of energy ... or else I have to engage in telling what feels to me like a white lie. What truth is there in saying "She's in seventh grade," when she isn't in a 7th grade classroom, does no 7th grade work, has no 7th-grade level skills, takes no classes with 7th-graders and has no 7th-grade-age friends?

Miranda

[2tadpoles]

:

[TigerTail]

Originally Posted by 2tadpoles

DS: I'm not in any grade; I'm homeschooled.
Person: Oh, but what grade would you be in if you were in school?
Mama: What military rank are you?
Person: I'm not in the military.
Mama: But what rank would you be if you WERE in the military?

:roflmao: Must remember.

[TigerTail]

Originally Posted by 2tadpoles

We're preparing them for life at a desk, in a cube (classroom), doing work that someone else deems important (curriculum), and being rewarded in the form of a paycheck (grades).

IMNSHO.

[2tadpoles]

Originally Posted by Britishmum

if someone asks me if I have kids, or where I work, or what country I come from, or where I bought my baby carrier, or how many ounces of formula my baby eats, or even if he sleeps through the night, I answer them without finding it irritating, even if I've heard the question a thousand times before. I guess it just doesn't irritate me to answer small talk the way it does some people.

Those questions all have simple answers that people understand easily.

You have a young child, and you homeschool in a conventional manner.

My children are older. We've been answering "the questions" for a looong time. And we aren't conventional people. The answers aren't easy, and they often lead into a round of 50 more questions.

I don't expect anyone to babysit me, but I have to say that I have been profoundly grateful to those who took the time to answer my questions about homeschooling as I made that decision.

I've answered a lot of questions for a lot of people. As I said before, I would just like to NOT do it in the supermarket, post office, Dollar Store, or wherever someone happens to bump into me. People assume that since we homeschool, we have all the time in the world. That's not the case. I work full-time and am often on a tight schedule to get things done.

And, I'll be honest here...sometimes I'd rather just be left alone. I'm with my kids a lot, and I work as a waitress. I'm dealing with people ALL DAY. Maybe I don't feel like chit-chatting, KWIM?

[mommy68]

deleted by me because I'm unable to share my POV.

[chaoticzenmom]

Originally Posted by mommy68

Yes, sure kids didn't go to school a hundred years ago or whatever, they stayed home all day. Well we also didn't have television, electricity, telephones, computers, etc at some point in time and everyone made it without all that. Just because schools are offered in this day and time doesn't make them bad and I don't feel that kids are "supposed" to be homeschooled and that it's the natural thing to do.

And again, why can't the majority of homeschoolers just accept the fact that homeschooling is not necessarily the best option out there and not ALL children do best in that environment, especially if a child is forced by their parents to homeschool since birth and never actually been outside the home to school to even try it out for themselves. It's not really fair to say they are set up to homeschool only.

And as far as grade levels go, you just never know when something may happen, an emergency of any sort, that will make it so that your child has to go to a school outside the home. I'd hate to think they wouldn't be prepared. I remember when I DID in fact homeschool, if we sent our kids to any classes or special trips outside the home at museums or other places then they would classify the children as far as their grade levels. They did in fact have it listed for grades K-2, 3-5, 6-8 and so on. The parents I knew didn't have a problem with that for the most part......

I think that people ARE wired to learn independantly and at thier own pace...public schooling is definitely unnatural. It may work for some, but it's not how nature intended by any means. People now have so many ways to get the information that they want, school is probably the least ideal way to get and retain information, unless it happens to be in a subject that interests the child.

Parents make decisions for thier children all of the time. When my kids grow up, they may beg to do lots of things? Go to unsupervised parties? Wear the latest fads? And hopefully, I am raising them to have a mind of thier own.

So, in your logic, we should classify our children according to thier age/grade level in case of emergency? If I die, my children would be without thier mother, should I just distance myself now, in case of emergency? Same logic.

If my child wants to go to a museum to learn about electricity, but is stuck playing with magnets in order to be with kids his own age, that wouldn't work for me and I would advocate for his best interests.
Lisa (mom to 3 wonderful children)

[2tadpoles]

Originally Posted by mommy68

actually YOU'VE opted them out at this point. There still may come a day where one or all of your children want to go to a school and may even beg you. What then? They DO grow up and take on a mind of their own.

DS2 is 11.5, and DS1 will be 15 next month. They have the option at any time to go to school if they desire.

So please, don't assume that I'VE opted them out. We discuss these choices frequently enough.

You do seem very irritated by the tone of your responses in this thread.

I can't really help how you interpret my words.

Just because schools are offered in this day and time doesn't make them bad and I don't feel that kids are "supposed" to be homeschooled and that it's the natural thing to do.

Schools are not "offered." Attendance is compulsory. Even those of us who "opt out" are held accountable to the school districts in many parts of the country. Yes, I think this is bad and strips people of freedom.

Families being together IS the natural thing to do. I have trouble understanding people who are AP only until the child turns five. I'm not judging, or condemning. I just don't get it.

And again, why can't the majority of homeschoolers just accept the fact that homeschooling is not necessarily the best option out there and not ALL children do best in that environment

They did just fine for the past several millenia. Schools are a relatively recent invention.

....especially if a child is forced by their parents to homeschool since birth and never actually been outside the home to school to even try it out for themselves. It's not really fair to say they are set up to homeschool only.

Would you say the same thing about kids who have been in school since the age of 3, and were never given a chance to homeschool? They were forced into school by their parents. Is that unfair?

And as far as grade levels go, you just never know when something may happen, an emergency of any sort, that will make it so that your child has to go to a school outside the home. I'd hate to think they wouldn't be prepared.

It doesn't take 13 years to learn what they teach in school. I have confidence that any academic "deficiencies" my kids have would be easily made up for. I tend to not live my life in fear of "what if."

I remember when I DID in fact homeschool, if we sent our kids to any classes or special trips outside the home at museums or other places then they would classify the children as far as their grade levels. They did in fact have it listed for grades K-2, 3-5, 6-8 and so on. The parents I knew didn't have a problem with that for the most part......

They might not have had a problem with it, or they might have been silently annoyed like myself. When a program is offered to kids from 5-8 grade, what if my teenager would like to participate, too? Why is he barred because of some arbitrary "grade" the museum wants to put him in?

But when it came to field trips and classes outside the home, there were the select few homeschool parents that demanded their 5 yr old be with their 8 yr old in a class designed for grades 3-5 for instance and it totally mucked up the class for the older kids to have a whiney, chatty kindergartner in the room and got them behind. :

Yes, I've seen people like that, too. They're the same sort of people who insist on their child(ren) being the center of attention no matter what. Their kids are the ones who monopolize any sort of organized class with a billion questions or random anecdotes, while the parent stands to the side, smiling gently. I call it being inconsiderate and self-centered, and it isn't a exclusively homeschooled phenomenon. It's people who talk on their cell phone in a movie theatre. It's people who bring shrieking, food-flinging toddlers into an upscale restaurant.

Things like that did tend to irritate me about homeschoolers. They are so against *anyone* telling them that their child needs to do something outside their realm of thinking. They are very hard to please. I was never like that when I homeschooled, never.

So, homeschoolers are , but you weren't when you were a homeschooler?

See how generalizations don't work?

I could say the very same things about some AP mamas.

But there are many out there that I've met who just aren't normal and they don't know how to be flexible when it comes to their own children. That could hurt their children in the long run.

IMO, it isn't your place to say what's normal for someone else's family.

[chfriend]

mommy68: Your experience has been very different from mine. I'm sorry that you felt mistreated by the homeschoolers you knew.

My children are known and loved by a community of homeschoolers (and some very cool building schoolers). The problems I run into (gender stuff mostly) would be worse in schools than they are in homeschooling groups. My school aged child would either be a kindergartener or a first grader depending on where we lived and whether I had her tested.

The questions make her uncomfortable....as do any intrusive questions or comments from stranger adults. She's very adept at changing the subject or just opening the conversation with a different topic. And we're usually handy to help her out.

Britishmum: I can't help wondering if your experience with the 15 year old's father might have to do with the age of your children. Around here, *lots* of people talk about homeschooling their 3, 4, 5 year olds. Then, the kindergarten year comes around and they go off to school.

I know that this year, when dd1 would have been in either k or 1st, our relationships with homeschoolers have deepened, as people feel like we might "stick around." I think people sometimes end up feeling a bit used when they answer a lot of questions, invite people to park day, etc. and the family enrolls the first day of school.

I'm being kicked up the computer by one of the shorter people in the house, so I'll check in later....

[Mom4tot]

Originally Posted by mommy68

Maybe it's because I came in contact with so many self-righteous, know-it-all homeschool parents that I have issues with all of them in general and I really don't mean to come across that way because I do have friends that still homeschool and have done so for the long haul. In fact, my best friend has an 18 y o and a 15 y o and they've always been homeschooled, and she's great. But there are many out there that I've met who just aren't normal and they don't know how to be flexible when it comes to their own children. That could hurt their children in the long run.

This is an unfair generalization you are applying to hsers. The OP was expressing her feelings being bombarded with other people's agenda to make kindergarten sound fun. It's unfortunate that you have had some unpleasnt experiences with hs parents, anyone can say the same about any group of parents. It just simply isn't fact for all of us. Hsing takes a lot of courage and ingenuity. People often lack the support of their extended families and this forum is meant to give, among other things, validation and support.

I have been frustrated many times out trying to get an errand accomplished and being bombarded with the most general hsing questions. Who has the time in a checkout line at the PO to educate someone on the NYS laws for hsing?? I don't even get why people think this is appropriate. No, I do not buy innocent curiousity all the time either. People are curious, but they are also threatened by change....by people who they view as "different". My children shouldn't have to explain why they are at the grocery store at noon.

Sorry, end of rant.

There are several good points in this thread and I hope I have time to discuss more of them. I want to thank those of you who are taking the time to articulate your feelings so patiently.

[Mom4tot]

Originally Posted by lisa49

If my child wants to go to a museum to learn about electricity, but is stuck playing with magnets in order to be with kids his own age, that wouldn't work for me and I would advocate for his best interests.
Lisa (mom to 3 wonderful children)

Good post, Lisa. I just highlighted this because it so often comes up in our outings and field trips too. I have done the same and my child has never disrupted a class or been an irritation. Hsers with more than 1 child have to make these decisions a lot. Thanks for making the point.

[Mom4tot]

2tadpoles, there are so many of your points in your posts I would like to quote and agree with.

[Moon Faerie]

Originally Posted by LeftField

Why doesn't it make sense for children to go to school in a mixed-age classroom? Who defines what is an age-appropriate grade level? Children are all so different and just because they share the same birth year does not mean that their needs are equally met in the same grade. Some are always "ahead", "on track" or "behind". I think it would make much more sense to just place children where their needs are best met...that would mean that all 8 year olds would not be in the same grade. That's why the grade concept is weird to many people. We don't all believe grades are age-appropriate fits. Since a reference was made to college, not all college juniors are the same age. Not all first year graduate students are the same age. If it's this way for adults, why can't children's individual needs also be met as such, rather than organizing them by birth year? Who does this keep things in order for? It certainly doesn't keep things in order for all children, as so many don't have their needs met this way. This is why the "grade" concept is awkward for many homeschoolers. I know that my own child is at multiple "grade" levels. If he were in school he would be a kindergartener. But we don't use a kindergarten curriculum at home. He's not a kindergartener to me. He has an individually tailored curriculum that runs across numerous grade levels (some ahead, some behind, and some at K level).

: Not all 5 year olds are ready for school. And they don't progress at the same rate. Nor are they at the same level for every subject.

I AM a college student right now. The only people that have ever asked my grade level are professors and college officials. In the "real world," I've been asked my major and how long I have left. What "grade level" I am really means absolutely nothing. Very very few people enter college and go straight through, finishing in only 4 years (8 semesters), which is how the college labeling system is designed. I *think* next semester will be my 4th as a junior because I didn't (couldn't) go full time. The fact that I'm a junior really doesn't mean anything though. What does is that I currently only need 41 more hours. But I could just as easily be a senior and still have 70-some odd hours left.

[Britishmum]

Originally Posted by chfriend

Britishmum: I can't help wondering if your experience with the 15 year old's father might have to do with the age of your children. Around here, *lots* of people talk about homeschooling their 3, 4, 5 year olds. Then, the kindergarten year comes around and they go off to school.

I know that this year, when dd1 would have been in either k or 1st, our relationships with homeschoolers have deepened, as people feel like we might "stick around." I think people sometimes end up feeling a bit used when they answer a lot of questions, invite people to park day, etc. and the family enrolls the first day of school.

I'm sure that was his reason for blanking me. I'm sure he felt that he'd heard it all before! What makes me feel sad though is that this was one of my first experience with the homeschool community, and I have to say that it was very offputting. I'd hate to ever give out that vibe to anyone.