Abstinance only education - Page 4

[lauren]

THis thread is being returned following removal of many posts that violated portions of the UA, specifically numbers 1 and 2. Please contain the discussion to the topic of education within the schools. References to personal sexual histories and preferences are not within the scope of LAS.

Please also remember to speak kindly toward one another and to reference your opinion as such, not as fact with the intention of demeaning another's opinion.

Thank you!

[Gendenwitha]

Originally Posted by simplemama

The government and federally-funded abstinence only programs are simply allowed to teach about this from a health perspective. It is not fair to give our kids education about how to be safe or to give them the expectation that they can go have sex and be protected from any type of health damage simply by sticking 'plastic' on themselves or making the girls chug that jagged little pill into their sensitive bodies.
Non-religious organizations, CDC/FDA, etc clearly agree that condoms do not always protect against disease/pregnancy (hense the reason for the new garadasil stuff for HPV) and the pill's information pamphlet only promises a chance to protect against pregnancy, not any diseases.

Either way, neither can protect against the emotional damage that could happen to someone who engages in the most incredible human act with a person before knowing this relationship is for life.

No, the schools do not simply teach it from a health perspective. In H.S. we had a local religious leader come in and tell us that men prefer marrying virgins (no mention as to what women might prefer) and that if a man could get an abortion he'd be over it like "that" [snapping his fingers] but if a woman gets an abortion she'll never get over it. In Jr. H. we got statistics about the different kinds of birth control and the percentages of effectiveness. As well as stories about unlikely pregnancies (w/ no penetration, anal intercourse, etc) Come H.S. and abstinence education, we got none of that, just the word "ABSTINENCE" written over the front of the chalkboard and chastity lessons from Pastor Bob.

You realize that the reason young people DON'T use protection is because of statements like this... "nothing REALLY protects against pregnancy, so why bother." It's stuff like this that causes 50% of pregnancies to be described as "accidental" even though condoms at their worst, (imperfect use, by themselves, without spermicide) are 86% effective.
Hope is not a birth control.

And again, just what do you expect these chaste little girls to do when they get married? It's not like we have socialized medicine where they all have access to doctors to talk to. And even if we did, most doctors spend 10 or 15 minutes with each patient--hardly enough to do any more education than fill out a prescription for a jagged pill, with no mention of side effects or contra-indications. If she's lucky those topics will be covered when she picks up the prescription--by which time she's no longer in a position of choice over options. On top of that you're assuming that she knows when she needs to talk to a physician. If her sister said you won't get pregnant when you're on you're period, if you douche with vinegar [insert other fallacies here] she won't even bother with that.

We need to teach more adult skills in general that they aren't learning from their parents, or their parents don't know either: put more economics in home economics--like how to balance a checkbook, avoid predatory lending, gauge fairness of interest rates, keeping a budget. We need to add things like labor laws, consumer rights, standard home and vehicle maintenance, basic relationship/communication skills, keeping a healthy home (how long food can be out, how to disinfect surfaces) first aid, and yes, birth control. They need to know these things for when they're adults, even if we don't think they should have a use for them now.

[simplemama]

Originally Posted by Gendenwitha

No, the schools do not simply teach it from a health perspective. In H.S. we had a local religious leader come in and tell us that men prefer marrying virgins (no mention as to what women might prefer) and that if a man could get an abortion he'd be over it like "that" [snapping his fingers] but if a woman gets an abortion she'll never get over it. In Jr. H. we got statistics about the different kinds of birth control and the percentages of effectiveness. As well as stories about unlikely pregnancies (w/ no penetration, anal intercourse, etc) Come H.S. and abstinence education, we got none of that, just the word "ABSTINENCE" written over the front of the chalkboard and chastity lessons from Pastor Bob.

There are many chastity programs out there that obviously have a religious agenda. The Abstinence Education that I am familiar with in my area of the country, especially the federally-granted program, does not use any type of religious-agenda or lingo in their curriculum. You are right that there are many out there that do though and that is fine if that is what people want. Anyway, the former one I am talking about uses accurate up-to-date stats on pregnancy and all the issues concerning this, and also accurapte up-to-date stats on the STD's and the money and everything that goes into treating that and uses accurate and up-to-date stats on alternative methods and their effectiveness or lack of...86% (as you mention below) is still not 100% against the diseases that can be life threatening or cause major problems later (cancer, sterility, annoying & uncomfortable syndroms etc...)

[/Quote]And again, just what do you expect these chaste little girls to do when they get married? It's not like we have socialized medicine where they all have access to doctors to talk to. And even if we did, most doctors spend 10 or 15 minutes with each patient--hardly enough to do any more education than fill out a prescription for a jagged pill, with no mention of side effects or contra-indications...[/Quote]

This day and age, there are many other scientifically-accurate methods for family planning that are easy to learn. (These methods have been taught and used with great success in many third world countries where the illiteracy levels are high and also in other countries like China and of course here.) Again, this provides a 99% effect way to family plan with 0% side effects. Of course the drug companies wouldn't be too excited about it since it is mostly FREE and usually helps woman learn about their bodies enough to stay away from other drugs the pharmas push when women experience side effects from hormonal contraceptives. (sorry if that was a bit of tangent). I'm not advocating they teach this in schools. However, some sort of understanding about the woman's reproductive system is taught in science class already so you could teach this at home as an extension of that.

[/Quote/]We need to teach more adult skills in general that they aren't learning from their parents, or their parents don't know either: put more economics in home economics--like how to balance a checkbook, avoid predatory lending, gauge fairness of interest rates, keeping a budget. We need to add things like labor laws, consumer rights, standard home and vehicle maintenance, basic relationship/communication skills, keeping a healthy home (how long food can be out, how to disinfect surfaces)...[/Quote]

Now this I could not agree more with! If my dh and I would have had classes about budgeting and home buying/maintence, we would be in a lot better shape now! Oh well, never too late to learn I guess.

[Mountaingirl3]

Originally Posted by simplemama

Why do you think your education you received caused you to have these unplanned pregnancies?

Either way teaching our children that we would prefer them to abstain and yet also teaching them how to be protected seems to send a lot of mixed messages....

I wanted to repond to what about my education caused big problems with sex. My parents never told me anything other than that they expected me to wait for marriage. My (Christian) church and youth group pushed virginity pledges and "true love waits". The greatest wedding gift you can give your future husband is your virginity, etc.

I went away to college with no ideas of my own about sex, and almost no experience with dating. Of course, I had unprotected sex. First of all, I had no skills to resist and very little confidence with men. I had no practice with physical relationships, and no logical reasons why I shouldn't have sex. Secondly, it was incredibly exciting and empowering.

Yet, I'd never been given the time or space to ask questions or make plans for the possibility. So, I got HPV, but didn't know it. I was too ashamed, uninformed, and in denial to go to a GYN. By the time I gained some maturity and distance from my parents' judgement and went to the student health center, I had pre-cancerous lesions on my cervix. The aftermath of the surgery for that left me with incompetant cervix and unable to have a vaginal birth. I'm lucky, though. It could have been PID leading to infertility or HIV or pregnancy.

It was pounded into me that the mistake of premarital sex was the biggest, baddest, most unrecoverable mistake I could make. That's total bunk. The mistake of unprotected sex clearly has big consequences. And I actually don't count protected sex at 17 with someone who cares about you as a mistake at all.

How is it resonable or natural to ask people to wait until marriage (at 30, for example)? In Biblical times people got married at 15.

As far as the OP, I would say that your daughter's biggest influence will be how you've raised her and not what they tell her in school. Those skits could be a good jumping off point for further discussion with you, her dad, aunts/uncles etc.

[Gendenwitha]

Originally Posted by Mountaingirl3

I went away to college with no ideas of my own about sex, and almost no experience with dating. Of course, I had unprotected sex.

I've long since lost track of where I read the statistics, but what I remember reading is that abstinence and non-abstinence full-knowledge education programs have about the same pregnancy rate. (I think it was only 1 percentage point different as I recall, don't remember which direction.)

The reason being is that abstinence only teens are less likely to have sex, but more likely to have unprotected sex when they do have sex. Fully-educated teens are more likely to have sex, but are more likely to have protected sex when they do. (I have no idea if this takes into consideration the social groups that these samplings are coming from or if the students receiving the two types of education were randomly selected.)

So the true-love-waits folks say, they have the answer, their kids are less likely to have sex. The full-education teaching advocates say our kids are less likely to have unprotected sex and more likely to use birth control and condoms therefore being less likely to have STDs and pregnancies. ... And they're both right.

[Nousername]

I know that what outside "authorities" say sometimes has more weight with my children, at least initially, than what I tell them. (In politics, however, our kids tend to agree with our views.) Even so, I would discuss, at home, what we think our children should know about sex (and at the age they seem ready) and allow them to go to the sex ed program if they wanted to. Being the "odd one out"--the only child not allowed to attend a program--might make my child feel embarrassed.

[GooeyRN]

Originally Posted by Nousername

What wedding gift is the husband expected to give?

His virginity as well.

[Mountaingirl3]

Originally Posted by Gendenwitha

So the true-love-waits folks say, they have the answer, their kids are less likely to have sex. The full-education teaching advocates say our kids are less likely to have unprotected sex and more likely to use birth control and condoms therefore being less likely to have STDs and pregnancies. ... And they're both right.

I agree. The question is which action has the most serious consequences for the most kids: protected premarital sex or unprotected premarital sex? Public education should not be teaching to very small number of kids who are going to wait until marriage.

[Houdini]

I am personally teaching my children about all aspects. We are teaching abstinence, but they will also learn about protection if they decide they aren't going to wait for marriage.

[Ruthla]

Originally Posted by gargirl

When I was in school (late 1800s) we were taught about sex and all the forms of birth control available.

Wow- you must be the oldest MDC member around! So tell me, how have the birth control options changed in the last 100 years?

Seriously, I'm assuming you meant late 1980's which makes you around my age.

In 10th grade I took a "health ed class" that covered sex ed as well as drug abuse, eating disorders, and teen suicide. The sex ed part explained about condoms and spermicide and IUDs and oral contraceptives, while emphasizing that only abstinence was 100% effective in preventing pregnancy and STDs. We also learned about HIV, herpes, syphilus and gonorhea, abortion, adoption, and teenaged parenthood. They also touched on the emotional ramifications of sexual relationships, but that was a very awkward subject to discuss in a mixed class of boys and girls. I really felt the class should have been segregated by gender- but in any case, we didn't get any morality plays, we did get basic facts, learned how to protect ourselves, and abstinence was promoted but not presented as the only option. IMO, that's what a public school health class should be, but I think it should be taught in middle school, not just in high school.

[aniT]

Well unfortunately they are promoting abstinence as the only and other BC methods as nothing but failure. For example, condoms have a 99% success rate. But only if used correctly. Since most ppl don't use them correctly they REAL success rate is only 83%. So since they are going to fail the only way to protect yourself is by practicing pre-marital abstinence. :

[AngelBee]

Abstinance is NOT a moral issue to me. It is a health issue. And I am pretty conservative. :

I think abstinance only programs are going to increase sexual activity among teens. Teens who are uneducated about the risks of sex.

I have a GREAT!!!!!!!!! sex ed/health class in high school. It changed my life! : We learned about EVERYTHING!!! Toys were even discussed Speakers included: Married couple that waited, Planned parenthood worker, gay men and women, prolife agencies, nurse, demos on how to use different forms of birth control (was passed around so that we could touch and try to pretend to use.......condom and banana .....things like that)

Because of that class and the openness of my parents, I wanted to wait.

I wanted to perserve my health and wait to have children until I was able to provide what I felt they needed.

A rape when I was 19 changed my course but knowing ALL of the facts is what enabled me to not be sexually active. Scare tactics or only half of the story........will only damage children.

They need the truth from EVERY angel to make decisions for themselves.

And I would let my children decide if they wanted to go to the class. My children 7, 5, and 2 probably know more about sex then that class is going to teach We see it as a gift from God that is wonderful. We discuss it as casually as eating, pooping .....or any other normal function. Use is as an opportunity for even more dialoge with your dd

[AngelBee]

Also.....sex is not just a health/physical issue.

It is/can be emotional and mental as well. I think if you are REALLY going to give a comprehensive sex ed program, there are going to be issues that wil be considered "moral"

For example, in the class I took (mentioed above) we had 2 women speak who had abortions. One was deeply troubled by her decision, one was not. We had two birth mothers.....one with regret, one without.

Did that touch on "morality"? Probably. But that to me is true education. Seeing ALL sides of the coin evenly and fairly. At least this is how I believe public schools should be.

[aniT]

Originally Posted by AngelBee

Did that touch on "morality"? Probably. But that to me is true education. Seeing ALL sides of the coin evenly and fairly. At least this is how I believe public schools should be.

That is fine if they are teaching all sides of the coin. But they are not! They are only teaching the side that fits their agenda.

[AngelBee]

Originally Posted by aniT

That is fine if they are teaching all sides of the coin. But they are not! They are only teaching the side that fits their agenda.

Absolutely...I agree with you.

[Pynki]

Originally Posted by Kirsten

Not my kid! I think abstinance only classes are dangerous.

I agree. Gives me the shiveries to think about it honestly.

Originally Posted by Ruthla

Wow- you must be the oldest MDC member around! So tell me, how have the birth control options changed in the last 100 years?

Seriously, I'm assuming you meant late 1980's which makes you around my age.

In 10th grade I took a "health ed class" that covered sex ed as well as drug abuse, eating disorders, and teen suicide. The sex ed part explained about condoms and spermicide and IUDs and oral contraceptives, while emphasizing that only abstinence was 100% effective in preventing pregnancy and STDs. We also learned about HIV, herpes, syphilus and gonorhea, abortion, adoption, and teenaged parenthood. They also touched on the emotional ramifications of sexual relationships, but that was a very awkward subject to discuss in a mixed class of boys and girls. I really felt the class should have been segregated by gender- but in any case, we didn't get any morality plays, we did get basic facts, learned how to protect ourselves, and abstinence was promoted but not presented as the only option. IMO, that's what a public school health class should be, but I think it should be taught in middle school, not just in high school.

These were my classes as well. I graduated in '93... AH the time of Clinton. Where every 8 yr old knew what a bj was!

What we have is backlash from that.

I've already talked to my sons (1&2) about sex. And masterbation. We've talked about condoms. We talked about pregnancy. I told them everytime a person has sex there is a risk for pregnancy. EVERYTIME. No matter what bc you use. And to think if that person is a person they want to have a baby with, because even if you use birth control it can fail.

I also told them to us a condom EVERYTIME they decide to have sex. SOme protection is better than none, and bad things can surely happen if you don't.

My 6 yr old had more questions than my 8 yr old.

I would NEVER approve of an abstinence only class.

[Mountaingirl3]

Originally Posted by AngelBee

I had a GREAT!!!!!!!!! sex ed/health class in high school. It changed my life! : We learned about EVERYTHING!!! Toys were even discussed Speakers included: Married couple that waited, Planned parenthood worker, gay men and women, prolife agencies, nurse, demos on how to use different forms of birth control (was passed around so that we could touch and try to pretend to use.......condom and banana .....things like that)

Because of that class and the openness of my parents, I wanted to wait.

I wanted to perserve my health and wait to have children until I was able to provide what I felt they needed.

Angelbee, I wish that choice had not been taken away from you . But, your sex ed/health class was awesome. I wish wish wish I'd had the same. Where did you go to school? We're doing our best with our kids, and I think we'll also send them to the UU church OWL (our whole lives) sex ed program. I want them to think about it and face the issues before they start getting into sexual situations.

[simplemama]

Originally Posted by Mountaingirl3

I wanted to repond to what about my education caused big problems with sex...

I went away to college with no ideas of my own about sex, and almost no experience with dating. Of course, I had unprotected sex. First of all, I had no skills to resist and very little confidence with men. I had no practice with physical relationships, and no logical reasons why I shouldn't have sex. Secondly, it was incredibly exciting and empowering...So, I got HPV, but didn't know it. I was too ashamed, uninformed, and in denial to go to a GYN. By the time I gained some maturity and distance from my parents' judgement and went to the student health center, I had pre-cancerous lesions on my cervix. The aftermath of the surgery for that left me with incompetant cervix and unable to have a vaginal birth. I'm lucky, though. It could have been PID leading to infertility or HIV or pregnancy...

Hpyothetically, say your parents raised you differently, and say you would have used protection, doing it exactly as directed, and then had found yourself in the same problems, who would you have blamed then?

Another benefit to true abstinence-only education is that it educates girls and boys about how to avoid sticky situations when out in public or socializing and dating etc. For me, I wish I would have learned more about this earlier as there were a few too many close calls for me and being violated so to say. I think girls especially need to understand that how they dress or act in front of guys has a bigger influence on them than most think.

[AngelBee]

Originally Posted by Mountaingirl3

Angelbee, I wish that choice had not been taken away from you . But, your sex ed/health class was awesome. I wish wish wish I'd had the same. Where did you go to school? We're doing our best with our kids, and I think we'll also send them to the UU church OWL (our whole lives) sex ed program. I want them to think about it and face the issues before they start getting into sexual situations.

I went to a public school in New Brighton, MN. It was part of a pilot health program that they were trying in I think...95-96

Honestly, you could create the same experience for your children at home

And thank you

[Pynki]

Originally Posted by simplemama

Hpyothetically, say your parents raised you differently, and say you would have used protection, doing it exactly as directed, and then had found yourself in the same problems, who would you have blamed then?

Another benefit to true abstinence-only education is that it educates girls and boys about how to avoid sticky situations when out in public or socializing and dating etc. For me, I wish I would have learned more about this earlier as there were a few too many close calls for me and being violated so to say. I think girls especially need to understand that how they dress or act in front of guys has a bigger influence on them than most think.

I don't know why you think that a full spectrum sex ed program can't or won't do the same.

Also, what I wear shouldn't be an excuse for a guy bum rushing me. Nor how I act.

There's this thing called consent that I'm teaching my boys is a must. There had better not be any bum rushing and hard push from my boys towards any girl.

On the flip side. They will know also that no one should be pushed to do somethign they don't feel ready to. Boys included.