What are the biggest more impressive arguments for Pro vaxers? - Page 11

[tiffer23]

I haven't read any other replies and probably won't get around to coming back (I always forget) but I think my biggest issue with it all is that I DON'T WANT my son to catch any of these diseases. It seems all anti-vaxers want their kids to catch them and gain lifetime immunity. I don't want him to catch them OR be vaccinated. Since that's not likely a possibility, I plan on delaying vaccines. Right now, I do not think he will get any before 2, but then I'll slowly give him some I find to be "needed." Some I am 99% sure I won't give him are the Pertussis (not sure about the D & T parts though), Flu, Prevnar, Hib.... I'm still researching on Hib especially though. *shrug*

imo, when it comes to your own child it's a lot harder to make a decision. Do I want my child injected with the things in vaccines? No! Do I want him to suffer any ill effects that I believe vaccines can cause? No! Do I want him to catch Rubella and become sterile? No! Do I want him to suffer with the whooping cough? No! It's ALL scary to me. Vaxing and not vaxing.

Either way I'm trying to make the best educated decision for my son. Right now, it's not giving him ANY vaccinations. Later he may receive some, I don't know yet. That's why I never stop researching.

ETA: I really just think it's a crapshoot either way. A child that might be biologically programmed to be able to survive the diseases could die/become injured from vaccines. But a child who is programmed to be able to handle the vaccines without any issues may be hurt or die from a disease. No one can know which their child is.

All the anti-vaxers I come across talk about how horrible it is that children die from vaccines, and I agree. But I find it equally as terrible that children are dying from these diseases.

[Plummeting]

Originally Posted by tiffer23

Do I want him to catch Rubella and become sterile? No!

Rubella doesn't cause sterility. That's mumps you're thinking of and it's extremely, extremely rare. Mumps orchitis almost never causes sterility, but in the rare instance that it does, it's almost always confined to one testicle, meaning the man isn't actually sterile, because he still has another fully functional testicle producing more sperm than he will ever need. Mumps-induced sterility is so rare that the CDC doesn't even have ANY numbers on how likely/common it is. THAT is RARE.

All the anti-vaxers I come across talk about how horrible it is that children die from vaccines, and I agree. But I find it equally as terrible that children are dying from these diseases.

Yes, children in Africa, who don't have enough food and can't get clean water, some of whom are infected with AIDS or malaria at the same time that they catch measles. Healthy American kids who aren't on steroids don't just drop dead from chickenpox or measles. It is terrible no matter why a child dies. The difference is that people who don't vax have learned enough to know that their child is more likely to be killed by falling out of bed than by tetanus or chickenpox.

[treemom2]

I haven't quite made it through reading the entire thread but I did want to give the opinion of my doc back in the states. I really liked him and he was very supportive of my decision not to vax my children, however he did want to discuss the reasons he decided to vax his. What he told me was that in the area where we lived there were a lot of tourists. Although he didn't think his children would get the VPDs normally, he was worried about them taking the train and sitting next to someone from XYZ and catching it from them. He then went on to tell me that it is a risk/benefit analysis. There are risks to the vaxes and risks to the diseases. He said he could not live with himself if one of his children died from a VPD, however he said truthfully he was concerned about the vaxes as well, but thought that the risk of dying from a VPD was more than dying from a vax.

[~member~]

Originally Posted by treemom2

What he told me was that in the area where we lived there were a lot of tourists.

What tourists do you know that are allowed into the USA without being vaccinated? :

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by treemom2

I haven't quite made it through reading the entire thread but I did want to give the opinion of my doc back in the states. I really liked him and he was very supportive of my decision not to vax my children, however he did want to discuss the reasons he decided to vax his. What he told me was that in the area where we lived there were a lot of tourists. Although he didn't think his children would get the VPDs normally, he was worried about them taking the train and sitting next to someone from XYZ and catching it from them.

You mean, these perfectly healthy tourists travelling happily on buses are alive and running, and have diseases that will kill your doctors children?

Are his kids that bad, that things that don't even bother tourists will kill his kids?

What a lousy advert for his omnipotent power as a parent of a supposedly healthy child.

[angela&avery]

Originally Posted by Deborah

I see several hurdles.

First, if illness is always seen as something bad and to be avoided, then why not avoid it? The fact that illnesses in childhood actually accomplish something positive is so contrary to the received wisdom of our time that most people cannot possibly wrap their minds around it.

.

i find this itself is one of the biggest problem with parents today. They are so afraid of their kids being sick..... its normal, its good and its healthy to get sick as a child and build up immunity. This is so frusterating. I am so constantly trying to get through peoples skulls that illness (and fever) is NORMAL for children. arrrrhg!!!

I agree it is one of hte biggest driving factors in parents that vaccinate. They are afraid of illness. Have no tools for treating illness, no resources for treating illness in their home and feeling confident about it.

[suprgrl]

Originally Posted by angela&avery

i find this itself is one of the biggest problem with parents today. They are so afraid of their kids being sick..... its normal, its good and its healthy to get sick as a child and build up immunity. This is so frusterating. I am so constantly trying to get through peoples skulls that illness (and fever) is NORMAL for children. arrrrhg!!!

I agree it is one of hte biggest driving factors in parents that vaccinate. They are afraid of illness. Have no tools for treating illness, no resources for treating illness in their home and feeling confident about it.

There also seems to be a strong belief that illness is something that just happens to you. I have a friend whose family has been sick 5 times this year...for a week each time! To me that is outrageous! They vax, medicate for everything, and live on processed foods. They had honestly not even heard of certain local vegetables that I eat regularly! They view getting sick like rolling the dice. So, yeah, if there is something out there (vaxes) that are said to prevent illness then it is miraculous to them. Why would anyone not want to do that?!
For some reason my friend has never put it together that I and my family are never sick, yet hers are. We eat healthfully, they eat crap. She just doesn't seem to think like that.
The bottom line seems to be that people want to live their lives as comfortably as possible...meaning they don't want to have to give up anything for their health... especially if a doctor can just fix whatever problems my arise with a pill or shot. Drinking water, or eating more veggies, exercising are all too much work for something medicine has solved in their minds.
Modern medicine is all about trying to overcome nature so that people can live how they want without consequences. Of course that can never happen, but alot of people think it has happened.

[mammom]

Originally Posted by angela&avery

i find this itself is one of the biggest problem with parents today. They are so afraid of their kids being sick..... its normal, its good and its healthy to get sick as a child and build up immunity. This is so frusterating. I am so constantly trying to get through peoples skulls that illness (and fever) is NORMAL for children. arrrrhg!!!

I agree it is one of hte biggest driving factors in parents that vaccinate. They are afraid of illness. Have no tools for treating illness, no resources for treating illness in their home and feeling confident about it.

I totally agree. And it's funny (or maybe not) - the fear has made its way into every aspect of parenting. I just got a catalog in the mail the other day from One Step Ahead or something like that and it was their "SAFETY ISSUE." They have every kind of "baby-proofing" device for your home (padding for corners, locks for every thing in the house, etc.), leashes for travelling and location devices in case your child is lost, etc., etc. I am sure some of these are very handy sometimes, BUT, the fear of ANYTHING, even a slight knock on the head from bumping into the corner of the counter, seems to be pervasive. People don't want anything "bad" to happen to their children - even if it could be a learning experience in the end.

I hope what I am saying makes sense - of course I don't want anything truly bad to happen to my own son! But life happens. We can't lock our kids in padded cells and let them out when they are adults. You know?

[Cate]

Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies

What tourists do you know that are allowed into the USA without being vaccinated? :

Just wanted to point out, I don't live in the US, nor am I a citizen of the US, but I have been there, many times, and I have *never* been asked to show a vaccination record.

[AikeaGuinea]

Originally Posted by aira

I ususally hear that in past generations everyone was crippled, lost 15 babies each, and couldn't hear b/c of measles...

OK, I'm exaggerating, but only a little.

It breaks my heart when the anti-vax faction jokes around like this. Have you ever talked to someone who grew up in the 30's or 40's when these diseases were still around? Better yet, have you ever talked to an elderly woman who raised children during the days before the vaccination program started? They would shame you for the way you talk about these VPDs. Many many tears were shed over children who contracted and died from VPDs, tears that parents nowadays do not have to shed because our children are all protected by vaccines and herd immunity. My mother, who was born in 1947, told me how she and her brothers were not allowed to go to public events because they might get polio. In her small school alone there were 5 or 6 children who had leg braces from polio paralysis. And let's not attribute it to poor nutrition and sanitation because back then people ate a heck of a lot better than we do now. I wish everyone who is against vaccination and doesn't believe in the efficacy of vaccines would spend some time with a mother in her 70's or 80's if you want to hear what life was like for mothers and children before vaccines.

Anti vaxers can laugh all they want about 15 babies dying and people being crippled but back then you should have seen the lines for the polio vaccines when they became available.

[JesseMomme]

Originally Posted by sprgrl

Modern medicine is all about trying to overcome nature so that people can live how they want without consequences. Of course that can never happen, but alot of people think it has happened.

worth repeating.

[mammom]

Originally Posted by AikeaGuinea

It breaks my heart when the anti-vax faction jokes around like this. Have you ever talked to someone who grew up in the 30's or 40's when these diseases were still around? Better yet, have you ever talked to an elderly woman who raised children during the days before the vaccination program started? They would shame you for the way you talk about these VPDs. Many many tears were shed over children who contracted and died from VPDs, tears that parents nowadays do not have to shed because our children are all protected by vaccines and herd immunity. My mother, who was born in 1947, told me how she and her brothers were not allowed to go to public events because they might get polio. In her small school alone there were 5 or 6 children who had leg braces from polio paralysis. And let's not attribute it to poor nutrition and sanitation because back then people ate a heck of a lot better than we do now. I wish everyone who is against vaccination and doesn't believe in the efficacy of vaccines would spend some time with a mother in her 70's or 80's if you want to hear what life was like for mothers and children before vaccines.

Anti vaxers can laugh all they want about 15 babies dying and people being crippled but back then you should have seen the lines for the polio vaccines when they became available.

First of all, AG, no one is laughing about babies dying or people being crippled. They are mocking the fearmongering that goes along the pro-vax stance.

From everything I have read, it would take a HUGE school to have 5 or 6 children permanently paralyzed by polio - have you read the thread in the archives? It says (and has credible sources) that 1 in 1000 people are permanently affected by polio. Perhaps the children got polio FROM THE VACCINE?? Your mom was born in '47 - the vaccine came out in the 50s, right? Perhaps they had vaccine induced polio, which, despite what you may want to believe, was very common.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by AikeaGuinea

It breaks my heart when the anti-vax faction jokes around like this. Have you ever talked to someone who grew up in the 30's or 40's when these diseases were still around? Better yet, have you ever talked to an elderly woman who raised children during the days before the vaccination program started? They would shame you for the way you talk about these VPDs. Many many tears were shed over children who contracted and died from VPDs, tears that parents nowadays do not have to shed because our children are all protected by vaccines and herd immunity. My mother, who was born in 1947, told me how she and her brothers were not allowed to go to public events because they might get polio. In her small school alone there were 5 or 6 children who had leg braces from polio paralysis. And let's not attribute it to poor nutrition and sanitation because back then people ate a heck of a lot better than we do now. I wish everyone who is against vaccination and doesn't believe in the efficacy of vaccines would spend some time with a mother in her 70's or 80's if you want to hear what life was like for mothers and children before vaccines.

Anti vaxers can laugh all they want about 15 babies dying and people being crippled but back then you should have seen the lines for the polio vaccines when they became available.

I have indeed spoken to people born in the the 30s and 40s, both my parents, born in in 1934 and 1935, fact were children in the UK during WW2 and neither of them have ever talked about the terrible destruction wrought on them or people they knew by childhood diseases and even Polio. These childhood diseases were a normal part of life, even during the war when there was food rationing, children weren't dropping like flies. It sounds to me like your grandmother was somewhat paranoid about illness and disease, not a healthy approach IMO. I only know of two people that had polio, from that generation or slightly later, one had leg braces and my aunt whose mouth is slightly paralyzed because of it.

The lines for the polio vaccine were created by mass marketing fear tactics, in the same way the public are brainwashed now into vaccinating. The this kind of fear-based medicine was perfected back then.

[Unreal]

Originally Posted by AikeaGuinea

It breaks my heart when the anti-vax faction jokes around like this. Have you ever talked to someone who grew up in the 30's or 40's when these diseases were still around? Better yet, have you ever talked to an elderly woman who raised children during the days before the vaccination program started? They would shame you for the way you talk about these VPDs. Many many tears were shed over children who contracted and died from VPDs, tears that parents nowadays do not have to shed because our children are all protected by vaccines and herd immunity. My mother, who was born in 1947, told me how she and her brothers were not allowed to go to public events because they might get polio. In her small school alone there were 5 or 6 children who had leg braces from polio paralysis. And let's not attribute it to poor nutrition and sanitation because back then people ate a heck of a lot better than we do now. I wish everyone who is against vaccination and doesn't believe in the efficacy of vaccines would spend some time with a mother in her 70's or 80's if you want to hear what life was like for mothers and children before vaccines.

Anti vaxers can laugh all they want about 15 babies dying and people being crippled but back then you should have seen the lines for the polio vaccines when they became available.

Your post reflects the fears a lot of people have...

that we don't know what it used to be like, etc.

But mny of us have looked...really looked...at the history of these VPDs
and have seen that Vaxs are NOT what made the difference.

I hope someday you are at the point where you are open to that info as well.
But I know many people will never be there, because, quite honestly it did take a lot of research, time, and effort.

[Plummeting]

Originally Posted by Cate

Just wanted to point out, I don't live in the US, nor am I a citizen of the US, but I have been there, many times, and I have *never* been asked to show a vaccination record.

Yeah. Only legal immigrants have to show proof of vaccination, not tourists.

[Plummeting]

Originally Posted by AikeaGuinea

It breaks my heart when the anti-vax faction jokes around like this. Have you ever talked to someone who grew up in the 30's or 40's when these diseases were still around? Better yet, have you ever talked to an elderly woman who raised children during the days before the vaccination program started? They would shame you for the way you talk about these VPDs.

Oh, gimme a break. Have YOU ever talked to anyone besides your mother who grew up in the 30's and 40's or who raised children during the days before the vaccination program? I'm going to guess not, because I HAVE and they certainly weren't lamenting the lack of vaccines. My great grandmother had 15 children, none of whom ever received a single vaccine, not even the smallpox vaccine. She started having children in 1928. Do you know how many of them died? ONE. And no one's even clear on exactly what killed her, but it was something to do with the lungs. NONE of those 15 children developed poliomyelitis. They ALL had measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, scarlet fever, poliovirus (because back in those days, EVERYONE caught the virus) etc., etc. without ANY complications requiring hospitalization or treatment more than cod liver oil and quinine. No blindness, no sterility, no necrotizing fasciitis, no NOTHING. These people were poor sharecroppers who didn't have the money for a doctor or medications. That's probably what saved them, come to think of it.

So before you pretend to have exclusive rights to conversations with the elderly, talk to a few more of them - especially the poor ones who lived far from big cities and had to make do on their own. I can assure you that my great-grandmother has never once told me she wishes all her kids could've been vaccinated. And my grandmother, her daughter, has no fear of measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, diphtheria (which they almost all had at some point) tetanus, meningitis, etc. The only disease for which my grandmother has concern is polio, because she raised her own children during the 50's polio panics.

So to answer your questions: YES, I have talked to people who raised children before vaccines. I've also talked to children who were raised without vaccines. And contrary to your assertion that it's all horror stories and dead babies, it simply wasn't like that. Perhaps you are the one who actually needs to talk to a few more elderly people.

[LongIsland]

Originally Posted by uccomama

The lines for the polio vaccine were created by mass marketing fear tactics, in the same way the public are brainwashed now into vaccinating. The this kind of fear-based medicine was perfected back then.

Read that again people.

Even the author of the 2006 Pulitzer Prize winning book, Polio: An American Story, makes that point in his book.


From just two reviews of the book:

Finally, and perhaps most tellingly, Oshinsky reveals that polio was never the raging epidemic portrayed by the media, but in truth a relatively uncommon disease. But in baby-booming America--increasingly suburban, family-oriented, and hygiene-obsessed--the specter of polio, like the specter of the atomic bomb, soon became a cloud of terror over daily life

Certainly the actual threat of the disease was exaggerated. In "Polio: An American Story" David Oshinsky reminds us that, even in the 1940s and 1950s, "ten times as many children would be killed in accidents ... and three times as many would die of cancer."

Originally Posted by AikeaGuinea

My mother, who was born in 1947, told me how she and her brothers were not allowed to go to public events because they might get polio.

Which is EXACTLY why the author made this point in his prize winning book on polio. Your mother, like everyone else, was very easily manipulated. The same thing is being done today:

Ped: "Dont take junior out in public until he's had his two month shots or he's going to die."

[Plummeting]

Originally Posted by LongIsland

:Finally, and perhaps most tellingly, Oshinsky reveals that polio was never the raging epidemic portrayed by the media, but in truth a relatively uncommon disease. But in baby-booming America--increasingly suburban, family-oriented, and hygiene-obsessed--the specter of polio, like the specter of the atomic bomb, soon became a cloud of terror over daily life

Yes, and this is exactly why, despite living her entire life without a polio vaccine and seeing her 13 surviving siblings doing the same thing, my grandmother feared that her own children might develop paralytic polio. When she was a kid, there wasn't a big media scare and they couldn't afford to sit around and listen to the radio anyway.

[ndunn]

My grandmother is now almost 80 and she is my biggest supporter of not vaxing. She had 7 kids and they all had everything and they all are fine.

[suprgrl]

Originally Posted by ndunn

My grandmother is now almost 80 and she is my biggest supporter of not vaxing. She had 7 kids and they all had everything and they all are fine.

Yep.
My grandparents as well as my great-grandfather (ages 79, 83, and 101) have always been very against vaccines.