What are the biggest more impressive arguments for Pro vaxers? - Page 14

[~member~]

Originally Posted by mamaofthree

Cranial drilling! AGH! And they still do that too! : Scary stuff out there in the world I tell you.

H

I was surprised to learn they still do lobotomies. They just changed the wording and put the patient under GA.
The people who perform them have a fancy name, too! Psychosurgeons! I always joked with my family that I was going to do that.
"Hello! I am MITB, you're Psycho Surgeon!" :

[wallacesmum]

...or psycho surgeon! (nak) i have been chewing on another thought here (i know, look out!), re: no apparent reactions. i am not sure of its relevance.

i used to party pretty hard before i got pregnant. did i put some toxins in my body, boy howdy?! i seem to be fine, although i developed hypo-glycemia during pregnancy and i think there were signs of it all along. that doesn't mean that the stuff i ingested wasn't bad for me, but my body appears to have mostly fought it off. i have mercury amalgam fillings, but i don't have alzheimers yet. even if most kids avoid the reactions (and who knows, over the long term, what is a reaction or a compound reaction) when i read about what's in vaccines and the culture substrates, and i learn about th1 and th2 antibodies, i don't need a study to tell me to be skeptical. the studies come after.

does that logic follow? what goes in, goes in, and that is the first part of the question for me. ds is hale and hearty, and probably would come through jabs with flying colors, but there is no amount of normal disease risk that could convince me to put that stuff in his body.

[jessicaSAR]

Originally Posted by Stevie

So my conclusion is that there has never been an impressive argument for vaccinating. I am totally open to hearing it; in fact, I am an extremely open minded person. It is just not forthcoming... stilll waiting

I'm still waiting too....

[jessicaSAR]

Originally Posted by mamakay

Ok...what about this...

So, the polio virus might cause paralysis in one out of 1,000 kids.
Doesn't that still add up to a lot of people when you take into account the billions of people in the world?
Isn't eradicating polio a good thing?

My understanding of polio is still quite limited, but my problem with this argument is the changing diagnosis of polio. It seems if you look at some the numbers MT has posted (I'll have to search for some of those old polio threads) the incidence of AFP increased concurrently with the decrease in polio. So there was still a lot of unexplained paralysis, just not as much polio.

So, in my understanding, the efficacy of the polio vaccine is still up for debate.

[Pernwebgoddess]

Originally Posted by jessicaSAR

My understanding of polio is still quite limited, but my problem with this argument is the changing diagnosis of polio. It seems if you look at some the numbers MT has posted (I'll have to search for some of those old polio threads) the incidence of AFP increased concurrently with the decrease in polio. So there was still a lot of unexplained paralysis, just not as much polio.

So, in my understanding, the efficacy of the polio vaccine is still up for debate.

Well, in all fairness...

When was the last time you met someone who had contracted polio recently?

I'd say it works pretty well.

Oh, and for the record, they no longer give the oral polio vaccine, which was the one that was responsible for the elevated risk of contracting it.

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by Pernwebgoddess

Well, in all fairness...

When was the last time you met someone who had contracted polio recently?

I'd say it works pretty well.

Oh, and for the record, they no longer give the oral polio vaccine, which was the one that was responsible for the elevated risk of contracting it.

Actually that's sort of complicated.
IPV doesn't induce mucosal immunity, so the "herd immunity" part of it is somewhere between weak and non-existant. So, couple that with the fact that polio virus is usually a stomach bug, and nothing more in 999 out of 1000 people who "catch it"...and the fact that since polio is considered "eliminated" in North America...no one ever tests for it. So for all we know, it could still be floating around, and on the rare occation that it causes paralysis, it's just getting diagnosed as GBS or something like that.

I know that sounds far fetched, but it really could be true.
Public health authorities have been known to be that stupid before many a time.

[jessicaSAR]

Originally Posted by mamakay

Actually that's sort of complicated.
IPV doesn't induce mucosal immunity, so the "herd immunity" part of it is somewhere between weak and non-existant. So, couple that with the fact that polio virus is usually a stomach bug, and nothing more in 999 out of 1000 people who "catch it"...and the fact that since polio is considered "eliminated" in North America...no one ever tests for it. So for all we know, it could still be floating around, and on the rare occation that it causes paralysis, it's just getting diagnosed as GBS or something like that.

I know that sounds far fetched, but it really could be true.
Public health authorities have been known to be that stupid before many a time.

I guess this is what I was getting at. Back when they changed the criteria for diagnosing polio they eliminated all non-parlytic polio from the definition, and I think all paralysis that was not clinically determined to be associated with the polio virus (I hope I am getting this correct). So, it is very likely that I have met someone with the polio virus, but not paralysis. And there is certainly AFP still around, GBS is the perfect example. So the whole polio thing is really complicated, and mixed up with other viruses, pesticides etc.

[Devaskyla]

I do think the biggest reason people continue to vax is the fear propaganda about the diseases is so pervasive & has been for a long time. My mom is not entirely happy about us not vaxing, but whenever it comes up, she says stuff like "I wish you'd at least get the polio vaccine". She has good cause for being scared of polio though, as she was one of those who developed problems from it, when she was about 18 months old in the late 40's. The doctors said she'd never walk, but my grandma worked with her a lot and she's had several surgeries and was able to walk mostly fine until she broke her hip a few years ago. It's hard to know that she's scared of that for my kids because I don't know how to reassure her, or if there's even anything that would. She's been reading MT's thread http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=356355 but her only comment has been that it doesn't discuss anything from before the vaccine. I was sure it did, but I haven't read it in awhile.

[wallacesmum]

Do we know anything about rates of paralytic illness now versus 100 years ago?

[Stevie]

Originally Posted by mamakay

Ok...what about this...

So, the polio virus might cause paralysis in one out of 1,000 kids.
It did in fact cause paralysis in my mother's cousin
Doesn't that still add up to a lot of people when you take into account the billions of people in the world?
Yes, it does
Isn't eradicating polio a good thing?
Absolutely

still waiting......

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by Stevie

still waiting......

See, that's why I can't be totally, 100% "antivax".
Although there are a lot of unknowns, and there's a lot of confusion, I can't firmly say that IPV is a bad, bad thing.
I can see why someone would see what a mess the whole thing has been and how many problems there have been, etc. and choose to bail out of the immunization program, but I still can't say vaccines are always horrible terrible things.
I'm just not seeing it.

[lyttlewon]

Originally Posted by AikeaGuinea

It breaks my heart when the anti-vax faction jokes around like this. Have you ever talked to someone who grew up in the 30's or 40's when these diseases were still around? Better yet, have you ever talked to an elderly woman who raised children during the days before the vaccination program started? They would shame you for the way you talk about these VPDs. Many many tears were shed over children who contracted and died from VPDs, tears that parents nowadays do not have to shed because our children are all protected by vaccines and herd immunity. My mother, who was born in 1947, told me how she and her brothers were not allowed to go to public events because they might get polio. In her small school alone there were 5 or 6 children who had leg braces from polio paralysis. And let's not attribute it to poor nutrition and sanitation because back then people ate a heck of a lot better than we do now. I wish everyone who is against vaccination and doesn't believe in the efficacy of vaccines would spend some time with a mother in her 70's or 80's if you want to hear what life was like for mothers and children before vaccines.

Anti vaxers can laugh all they want about 15 babies dying and people being crippled but back then you should have seen the lines for the polio vaccines when they became available.

My grandmother is 85 years old and has never once told me a story about polio. I don't have any family members that died of a Vaxable disease either. I have an uncle that was crushed to death by cases of peaches and my dad almost died of appendicitis in the 1950's because his appendix wasn't where it belongs and they didn't diagnose it until it burst. Those stories I have heard ad nauseum. It makes me wonder what elderly people you are talking to. Do you specifically ASK them about this stuff because in my general conversation with people polio never comes up nor do the droves of people dying and being crippled from it. I saw a comedian once that had a limp from polio and she joked about it but she could walk and looked otherwise healthy as a horse for a woman in her 60's.

[wallacesmum]

Do I hear a peach vaccine?

[Deborah]

I'm 56, so I was a child during the great polio epidemics in the U.S. I can't remember knowing any child who got sick with polio. Weird.

One friend I met as an adult had had polio as a child and ended up in a wheelchair. I probably met a fair number of people who had it and recovered enough so it wasn't noticeable and wasn't mentioned.

People were scared about it I guess, since they turned out in droves for the vaccine.

[JesseMomme]

Originally Posted by wallacesmum

Do I hear a peach vaccine?

Don't make me laugh, this is a serious discussion...

[Deborah]

Peaches aren't the problem. Crates of peaches are the problem. People are also injured by crates of apples, pears, oranges and asparagus.

How about an anti-crate vaccine? Or a forcefield vaccine that protects you from falling objects of any variety?

[jeanine123]

Originally Posted by Deborah

Peaches aren't the problem. Crates of peaches are the problem. People are also injured by crates of apples, pears, oranges and asparagus.

How about an anti-crate vaccine? Or a forcefield vaccine that protects you from falling objects of any variety?

Depends. Would it also work as a forcefield around young babies who are trying to walk before they have enough balance to be successful? If so I have an 8.5 month old who may be interested, he's getting awfully sick and tired of smacking his head.

[Deborah]

Originally Posted by jeanine123

Depends. Would it also work as a forcefield around young babies who are trying to walk before they have enough balance to be successful? If so I have an 8.5 month old who may be interested, he's getting awfully sick and tired of smacking his head.

Well, the long-term result would be a person who doesn't understand how the physical universe works, so if the vaccine ever wore off they'd kill themselves in no time at all!

Babies are probably better off learning stuff the hard way, alas.

And so are our bodies, by and large. We learn how to cope with bad germs by getting sick and we learn how to walk by falling down.

[jeanine123]

Very, very true. And I know he'll understand that when he gets older. Doesn't do him much good right now though since he gets royally ticked when he tumbles. Oh well, such is life. Gravity is a cool thing until you're the one being pulled down to the ground by it. Good thing he bounces pretty good.

[Laurel723]

Originally Posted by AikeaGuinea

It breaks my heart when the anti-vax faction jokes around like this. Have you ever talked to someone who grew up in the 30's or 40's when these diseases were still around? Better yet, have you ever talked to an elderly woman who raised children during the days before the vaccination program started? They would shame you for the way you talk about these VPDs. Many many tears were shed over children who contracted and died from VPDs, tears that parents nowadays do not have to shed because our children are all protected by vaccines and herd immunity. My mother, who was born in 1947, told me how she and her brothers were not allowed to go to public events because they might get polio. In her small school alone there were 5 or 6 children who had leg braces from polio paralysis. And let's not attribute it to poor nutrition and sanitation because back then people ate a heck of a lot better than we do now. I wish everyone who is against vaccination and doesn't believe in the efficacy of vaccines would spend some time with a mother in her 70's or 80's if you want to hear what life was like for mothers and children before vaccines.

Anti vaxers can laugh all they want about 15 babies dying and people being crippled but back then you should have seen the lines for the polio vaccines when they became available.

Bah. So what you're saying is that babies/people killed by vax-available disease (sorry, don't like vpd...) are more tragic than those killed/injured by vaxes? Given that deaths from VAD's are reported pretty reliably but injuries are not-even the CDC states it's around 10%...that argument is bunk to me. We'll never know what the true risk is until all adverse reactions are reported and all incidents of disease are accurately diagnosed.

Most VADs you get, and then get over. Assuming that you are generally healthy. Most vax reactions cause long term effects. Does the lost potential of the number of autistic children not break your heart as well? What about the numbers lost to disease caused by vax contaminants when they only 'might' have gotten the disease they were vaxed for? Like SV40 cancer?

If they were truly safe, there would not be the level of deception (attempted and otherwise) in all things related to the CDC and FDA. And it's not just vaxes that I question. Tylenol, anyone?

We can agree to disagree if you like. Just don't expect me to do what I think is unsafe because you (not you personally, Aikea-society in general) are afraid not to.