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What are the biggest more impressive arguments for Pro vaxers? - Page 15

post #281 of 433
thanks ladies....
post #282 of 433
I am one of those who has done thorough research but have still decided to vax. Basically, I look at the worst case scenario of life with vax (the possibility of a reaction) and worst case scenario of life without the vax (with possibility of a disease) and all of the evidence points to the fact that the worst case with the disease is worse than the worse case with the vax. My child is not isolated enough from populations that still carry these diseases--if you live in an upper class, middle american suburb, then sure, you can probably not vax safely. If you have no chance of your child ever meeting someone with one of the diseases, then sure, your chances of having a reaction would be worse than your child getting the disease. Not every person in the US can say that, though. To us, the chance of getting the diseases and having a severe consequence are greater than the lesser chance of having a severe reaction to a vaccine. And we are far from what one person described as a "keeping up with the jones' "family. I actually come from a long line of skeptics of the medical profession, and myself did not see a doctor from the time I was 5 until I was 19. We don't run to the doc for every little thing, and we don't even have tylenol or other children's medicine in our medicine cabinet. Our ped actually wondered out loud how we must have the healthiest kid in town because she has only seen her about 5 times in 2 years...and one of those was for a heart murmur and another was for a laceration on her arm. Hubs has a master's degree in research and researches for a living--I just had too much time on my hands while pregnant. We did a ton of research and came out on the side of delayed vaccination. Any future kids will also be vaccinated.
post #283 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamleabee View Post
i wrote that i found it discouraging that anti-vax sites are making the arguement that vaccines cause harm and then try to sell you things: buy this video! this book! etc. some people wrote back that the articles i posted are the same because drug companies make money selling vaccines. a--i don't think that's where drug companies make their money (except maybe very new vaccines like the hpv one) and b--this alludes to a big researcher/medical field/drug company/data manufacturing conspiracy to essentially make up millions of data points and poison the vast majority of children in the US for the last 6 decades. this allegation states that drug companies are paying university researchers to publish data in independent scientific journals extolling the virtue of vaccines that are essentially poisonous. maybe so (re: tobacco), but i remain unconvinced at this time.

Think critically.

Pharmaceutical Corporations of course make Pharmaceuticals. This means they make drugs. People take drugs when they are ill. However healthy people will take vaccines because they are told its good for them. What a great way to sell things to both the sick and the healthy alike.

If you are a corporation which is an entity that exists only to make money, and you can make the most amount of money from selling drugs to people with chronic conditions (they'll need daily pills to function or feel better) then you will want a population with a high level of chronic conditions. You won't have any interest in "curing" anything unless its a long drawn out and expensive cure with possible relapse.

Pharm Corps work with the medical establishment to inject the population from birth with things that people are taught not to question. Most people don't even look at the insert or the ingredients and if they did that wouldn't know what was in it anyway. The propaganda is in place so that you do not question those injections. If you do question the injections you are some kind of a "quack."

Now we have tons of chronic conditions in our society at alarmingly increasing rates over the last 20-30years such as diabetes, autism, etc and we have accepted alarming amount of increased and unquestioned injections. I suppose it could be a coincidence but when you take into account the factors and follow the money trail I personally don't believe its a coincidence.

Here is an estimation of chronic illness by country:
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/c/chro...ts-country.htm

We take pills like never before as well. My mother and father have fallen into this and take pills daily like you wouldn't believe and they are only in their 40's. My mom says she was recently diagnosed with Restless Legs Syndrome as well. Funny I just saw a commercial about this new disease other day--Yes a commercial.

Isn't it interesting how you are indoctrinated to believe the medical industry and the pharm corporations only have your best interest at heart and are not trying to fill their pockets and yet they have one of the most aggressive advertising campaigns in this country??

We are talking BILLIONS of dollars a year here. Thats no small amount of money and money is power.

http://www.democrats.reform.house.go...5623-70677.pdf
post #284 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by cortsmommy View Post
If you are a corporation which is an entity that exists only to make money, and you can make the most amount of money from selling drugs to people with chronic conditions (they'll need daily pills to function or feel better) then you will want a population with a high level of chronic conditions. You won't have any interest in "curing" anything unless its a long drawn out and expensive cure with possible relapse.

Isn't it interesting how you are indoctrinated to believe the medical industry and the pharm corporations only have your best interest at heart and are not trying to fill their pockets and yet they have one of the most aggressive advertising campaigns in this country??
That whole post was well written. Just quoted what I did to empasize-

And people wonder why they don't have a cure for cancer yet.:
post #285 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyttlewon View Post
My grandmother is 85 years old and has never once told me a story about polio. I don't have any family members that died of a Vaxable disease either. I have an uncle that was crushed to death by cases of peaches and my dad almost died of appendicitis in the 1950's because his appendix wasn't where it belongs and they didn't diagnose it until it burst. Those stories I have heard ad nauseum. It makes me wonder what elderly people you are talking to. Do you specifically ASK them about this stuff because in my general conversation with people polio never comes up nor do the droves of people dying and being crippled from it. I saw a comedian once that had a limp from polio and she joked about it but she could walk and looked otherwise healthy as a horse for a woman in her 60's.
I was speaking with my 80 year old grandmother the other day about vaccination. She is against them, she is extremely happy that I stopped vaxing. My mom is against them as well. As well as my 72 year old MIL.
post #286 of 433
my father in law and sister in law both died from hepetitus (spelling?) andmy brother in law died from TB only recently. I think that alot of the diseases that we vax against are still out there, as rare as they may seem. that said, I don't believe in things like flu shots, and I think some vax's, like for chicken pox aren't necessary. however, if you plan on traveling out of the country with your children, or enrolling them in mainstream schools (even college eventually) then you don't really have a choice in the matter, they will eventually have to get vaxed.

the increase in diabetes that was mentioned in a previous post comes from our sedentary lifestyle and high fat diet.
post #287 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erinok View Post
however, if you plan on traveling out of the country with your children, or enrolling them in mainstream schools (even college eventually) then you don't really have a choice in the matter, they will eventually have to get vaxed.
You are able to travel internationally without being vaccinated. Also, you can attend daycare, preschool, school and college without being vaccinated by using an exemption.

There are three types of exemptions - medical, religious and philosophical. West Virigina and Mississippi only offer medical exemptions or allow the use of titer results to exempt a child from certain vaccines. Every other state offers philosophical and/or religious exemptions from immunization requirements.
post #288 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erinok View Post
my father in law and sister in law both died from hepetitus (spelling?) andmy brother in law died from TB only recently. I think that alot of the diseases that we vax against are still out there, as rare as they may seem. that said, I don't believe in things like flu shots, and I think some vax's, like for chicken pox aren't necessary. however, if you plan on traveling out of the country with your children, or enrolling them in mainstream schools (even college eventually) then you don't really have a choice in the matter, they will eventually have to get vaxed.

the increase in diabetes that was mentioned in a previous post comes from our sedentary lifestyle and high fat diet.
Why do you think this? I haven't been required to be vaccinated as an adult for anything. I got a TD shot and a Hep B shot at 25 because it was suggested to do before pregnancy and I decided it was a waste of time so I stopped. Other than that I haven't been vaccinated since I was enrolled in Kindergarten. Some jobs might ask you to but college didn't even ask me about vaccinations much less try to require them.
post #289 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pernwebgoddess View Post
Well, in all fairness...

When was the last time you met someone who had contracted polio recently?

I'd say it works pretty well.

Oh, and for the record, they no longer give the oral polio vaccine, which was the one that was responsible for the elevated risk of contracting it.
Several days ago I talked with a mother whose son felt some weakness one day (a couple years ago) and before they both new it he was in the hospital completely paralyzed. His breathing was done artificially. This was classic paralytic polio at one time. He only recently gained use of his hands again (the last body part to come back but walking still slow). The doctors called it Guillain-Barre not polio.

BIL had facial paralysis for several days which could have been considered Bulbar polio in come compacity but was dx as having Bell's Palsy. Palsy is paralysis. This one could be argued either way.

A good friend felt terrible stiffness in her neck, fever, was really kind of out of it, and before she knew it she was in the hospital struggling mightily (almost died). Again, could be considered polio. Her dx was meningitis.

How about the symptoms such as muscle aches, fever and malaise that were once considered polio believe it or not, especially when they were looking to boost polio numbers, but now called influenza among other dxs?

Often a first response to an anti-vax discussion is "what about polio?" "What about the iron lung?" "You don't see all those people on the iron lung anymore do you?" Two of the three people I just mentioned did need some artificial help breathing.

It is a belief that those vaccinated for polio will not develop polio even if infected with the virus. That belief simply eliminates any possible dx of polio.
post #290 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erinok View Post
however, if you plan on traveling out of the country with your children, or enrolling them in mainstream schools (even college eventually) then you don't really have a choice in the matter, they will eventually have to get vaxed.

the increase in diabetes that was mentioned in a previous post comes from our sedentary lifestyle and high fat diet.
Two things here -
That's a bit defeatest, in my view. It's not true, first of all, but even if it were, if it is an issue of import to me as a parent then I am not going to say "Oh, well, screwed anyway, why worry?"

As for the diabetes issue, are we talking type I or type II?
post #291 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scattershoot View Post
This was classic paralytic polio at one time.

Now just imagine how inflated the paralytic polio figures were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erinok View Post
my father in law and sister in law both died from hepetitus (spelling?) andmy brother in law died from TB only recently. I think that alot of the diseases that we vax against are still out there, as rare as they may seem.
FTR, the United States doesn't use the TB vaccine for the prevention of TB. Good ole santitation has reduced TB in the United States.
post #292 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erinok View Post
the increase in diabetes that was mentioned in a previous post comes from our sedentary lifestyle and high fat diet.
We're not talking about the adults and the elderly. How do you explain the increase in toddlers developing diabetes? Do a search on vaccine-induced diabetes.
post #293 of 433
I actually tried to get the TB vax in the UK, and was told it no longer works.

Oh dear!
post #294 of 433
Well, my understanding of type II diabetes is that it is related to obesity, which would connect it with all the things that cause obesity. Childhood type I diabetes, however, is a different animal, and is considered an autoimmune disorder, correct? FWIW, all the young people I have known with type I diabetes were fairly trim, and none were obese. I know this is anecdotal, but I don't think type I is related to obesity. Trying to look it up with a sleeping baby on my back
post #295 of 433
i admit, this website changed my mind and i started selectively, delayed vaxing. i anxiously started to research the articles he was referring to and got shocked. i am not fully convinced though, but it is tough.
but at least-as a vaxer-i did my research.

ETA: as a foreigner european if i would like to travel to the US, i'd need to prove that my family and i are fully vaxed, and probably 'd need some more vaxes. weird, huh?
post #296 of 433
A lot of his links are down, I notice. But there is certainly a lot of bunk out there on both sides, so you end up having to write the articles yourself, in a way.
post #297 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
I'm 56, so I was a child during the great polio epidemics in the U.S. I can't remember knowing any child who got sick with polio. Weird.

One friend I met as an adult had had polio as a child and ended up in a wheelchair. I probably met a fair number of people who had it and recovered enough so it wasn't noticeable and wasn't mentioned.

People were scared about it I guess, since they turned out in droves for the vaccine.
My 54 yo MIL was telling us just this weekend about the kids she knew in school who had had polio and were crippled. She gave this as evidence that it worked, since we don't worry about this now. Both DH and I educated her on ths subject. She didn't change her mind, but did agree that vaccinating is a decision we had to make as parents and she wouldn't freak one way or another.
post #298 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallacesmum View Post
Well, my understanding of type II diabetes is that it is related to obesity, which would connect it with all the things that cause obesity. Childhood type I diabetes, however, is a different animal, and is considered an autoimmune disorder, correct? FWIW, all the young people I have known with type I diabetes were fairly trim, and none were obese. I know this is anecdotal, but I don't think type I is related to obesity. Trying to look it up with a sleeping baby on my back
I believe you are correct. My company supports the Juvenille diabeties foundation and we have had insulin dependant children come to our site to talk to us about their illness. I met one 9 year old girl with an insulin pump who became diabetic after a horrendous stomach ailment. None of the children were obese and they were all Type I.
post #299 of 433
Quote:
the increase in diabetes that was mentioned in a previous post comes from our sedentary lifestyle and high fat diet
Quote:
Well, my understanding of type II diabetes is that it is related to obesity, which would connect it with all the things that cause obesity. Childhood type I diabetes, however, is a different animal, and is considered an autoimmune disorder, correct?

Take a look at this article:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/n...5-8a598ab5d1bf

Of course the authors don't relate this to vaccines, but if diabetes is a neuological disease what role does vaccination have in its development?

Quote:
In a discovery that has stunned even those behind it, scientists at a Toronto hospital say they have proof the body's nervous system helps trigger diabetes
and this

Quote:
Their conclusions upset conventional wisdom that Type 1 diabetes, the most serious form of the illness that typically first appears in childhood, was solely caused by auto-immune responses -- the body's immune system turning on itself.
They also conclude that there are far more similarities than previously thought between Type 1 and Type 2 diabetes, and that nerves likely play a role in other chronic inflammatory conditions, such as asthma and Crohn's disease.
and how about this:

Quote:
Dr. Dosch had concluded in a 1999 paper that there were surprising similarities between diabetes and multiple sclerosis, a central nervous system disease. His interest was also piqued by the presence around the insulin-producing islets of an "enormous" number of nerves, pain neurons primarily used to signal the brain that tissue has been damaged.
A bit OT but very, very interesting....
post #300 of 433
And here is a bit about the Hib and diabetes

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...tid=1116914#B1
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