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What are the biggest more impressive arguments for Pro vaxers? - Page 20

post #381 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by LongIsland View Post
And another one on the way.
After what happened with the last one why would any parent request that vax?? How many examples do people need? My daughter had one reaction - and yep, that one time was enough for me to stop.
post #382 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichelleS
After what happened with the last one why would any parent request that vax??
Most don't bother to even know what their babies are getting - why would they know about the problems?

I'm guessing those who are "fully informed" have read the CDC page that says the new one is safe.
post #383 of 433
Unless you are actually staying on top of vaccine info, there is no way to know what is going on. Parents who were concerned about the rotavirus fiasco several years ago may have forgotten (unless their baby was one of the injured or killed), and a lot of people probably either didn't hear about it, or didn't keep the concern in the front of their minds.

We are a weird minority here. Need to keep that in mind.
post #384 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
Unless you are actually staying on top of vaccine info, there is no way to know what is going on. Parents who were concerned about the rotavirus fiasco several years ago may have forgotten (unless their baby was one of the injured or killed), and a lot of people probably either didn't hear about it, or didn't keep the concern in the front of their minds.

We are a weird minority here. Need to keep that in mind.
How unfortunate that only a "weird minority" of people actually care about and investigate what doctors want to put in their children's bodies. :
post #385 of 433
This may have already been said (I am still reading through this thread!), but I am amazed when people shut down my arguements that support not vaxing because they think I just read some weird, obscure website. In reality, all the info I read on here from LI, MT, Gitti, etc are on the CDC website and from "esteemed" medical journals. The info is there. People just choose not to get educated (and I don't mean that to be snotty- I was one of those people until my DS#2 had an adverse reaction).
post #386 of 433
I think that people trust their peds way more than they should. They don't take it upon themselves to learn and research the topic. But people do tend to think you are crazy for not vaxing and for not following a doctor's advice word for word.
post #387 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxwill129 View Post
In reality, all the info I read on here from LI, MT, Gitti, etc are on the CDC website and from "esteemed" medical journals.
: They put my posts on the CDC now? Ewww, that's scary. :

I only post from common sense and personal experience.
They got any of THAT over there? :

Maybe there's hope for those guys at the CDC after all?

Na, I doubt it. :
post #388 of 433
Well, Gitti, obviously you have something right, because I ALWAYS double check my info so I have something to back it up, and I can find a lot of reasons to not vax on the CDC website!

Hey, maybe they're reading MDC and learning something from you guys!
post #389 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by wild&precious life View Post
But people do tend to think you are crazy for not vaxing and for not following a doctor's advice word for word.
oh surely you're familiar with the phrase doctor's orders? Seriously, that's how it's viewed. Who else would you pay to give you orders.
post #390 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxwill129 View Post
This may have already been said (I am still reading through this thread!), but I am amazed when people shut down my arguements that support not vaxing because they think I just read some weird, obscure website. In reality, all the info I read on here from LI, MT, Gitti, etc are on the CDC website and from "esteemed" medical journals. The info is there. People just choose not to get educated (and I don't mean that to be snotty- I was one of those people until my DS#2 had an adverse reaction).
This is exactly the response I get from friends & family. It's utterly frustrating. I try to point them to the gov't websites themselves as the most damning evidence of all, but they refuse to believe that could be the case and refuse to visit them. I am so angry at my parents right now -- they want to argue this vax issue left and right but do NOT want to bother researching the other side. After our intense hospital experience with DD this week I am getting so much flack. To hell with people who want to argue a point without researching.

I feel so alone in all this.
post #391 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by knowerofnada View Post
This is exactly the response I get from friends & family. It's utterly frustrating. I try to point them to the gov't websites themselves as the most damning evidence of all, but they refuse to believe that could be the case and refuse to visit them. I am so angry at my parents right now -- they want to argue this vax issue left and right but do NOT want to bother researching the other side. After our intense hospital experience with DD this week I am getting so much flack. To hell with people who want to argue a point without researching.

I feel so alone in all this.

So sorry, mama! You're not totally alone! We're here for you!

Shannon
post #392 of 433
We're here for ya, Julie.

post #393 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxwill129 View Post
I can find a lot of reasons to not vax on the CDC website!
The CDC site is what convinced me not to do HIB.
I think if more people read it, they would question it, also.
post #394 of 433
Looking for Mamakay's onion analogy... back in a while...
post #395 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by aira View Post
Looking for Mamakay's onion analogy... back in a while...
This will open up right to the post:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...4&postcount=17
post #396 of 433
I love that analogy! Now, I have what will probably seem like a stupid question to those who are more educated about vax, what is the Pink Book?
Leslie
post #397 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by wild&precious life View Post
I love that analogy! Now, I have what will probably seem like a stupid question to those who are more educated about vax, what is the Pink Book?
Leslie
Not a stupid question at all! Here ya go: http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/..._pink_full.htm
post #398 of 433
Thanks LI!!

DS didn't let me get back here...
post #399 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by suprgrl View Post
There also seems to be a strong belief that illness is something that just happens to you. I have a friend whose family has been sick 5 times this year...for a week each time! To me that is outrageous! They vax, medicate for everything, and live on processed foods. They had honestly not even heard of certain local vegetables that I eat regularly! They view getting sick like rolling the dice. So, yeah, if there is something out there (vaxes) that are said to prevent illness then it is miraculous to them. Why would anyone not want to do that?!
For some reason my friend has never put it together that I and my family are never sick, yet hers are. We eat healthfully, they eat crap. She just doesn't seem to think like that.
The bottom line seems to be that people want to live their lives as comfortably as possible...meaning they don't want to have to give up anything for their health... especially if a doctor can just fix whatever problems my arise with a pill or shot. Drinking water, or eating more veggies, exercising are all too much work for something medicine has solved in their minds.
Modern medicine is all about trying to overcome nature so that people can live how they want without consequences. Of course that can never happen, but alot of people think it has happened.
Pretty much what I have been thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aira View Post
About the ideal non-vaxing world... In my dreamworld, no vaxes would exsist. Not because I like the idea of denying lifesaveing care to helpless little babies - but because I'm really unconvinced that vaxes do even one good thing. I think everyone would be better off without them.

And also without sugar, refined flours / foods, and industrialized meats and diary. OK, without almost all dairy.

I will clarify, because when I say this almost always someone thinks I mean that this is a substitute for vaxing, but I don't. These non-foods are killing us and making us crazy sick. If we weren't junking ourselves up to be so yummy to pathogens, we wouldn't think we need the vaxes.

So to me, they just are a bizarre, illogical, lateral thinking workaround to the real issue - that we are turning ourselves into yuck. We will never stop all microorganisms from eating on us. I've said before, it's like pushing waves back into the ocean with a bucket and thinking we are going to change the coastline. Unfortunately, we are stirring a hurricane.

The next oppotunistic germ is just going to take the place of any we may eradicate. Why on earth would we think it possible to stop them? It can't be the answer to achieving thriving health. Populations who have thrived must have done something other than successfully chase down and kill every germ. Because it's just not possible to do that.

I've also mentioned here before that DH has used a good analogy. He is a big-shot senior IT guy. He looks at vaxes lik this: Computers are something invented by man, and therefore we know everything there is possible to know about them - there are absolutely no unknowns. And still, on a constant basis, things go wrong, fail, break, behave in very unexpected ways, etc... There are teams and teams of IT people working around the clock in every company in every modern country trying to solve crazy hard computer problems - in a science that has no unknowns!!

Are you really going to claim that when it comes to human physiology, specifically immunology - a system where we know so little that we can't even begin to estimate just how much we know or don't beacuse we can't even conceptualize the scope of it - that we can make such sweeping changes, and ever be "fully informed" about the practice of vaccines?

This is why I cringe when people say that they are "fully informed" and chose to vax. It's not possible to be fully informed. No human is fully informed. So no amount of reading studies will impart full knowledge of this issue. We can't know - the knowledge is not to be had.

This, to me, is pure human arrogance - to think we know everything when we can't even know how much we don't know. In fact, it's modern-day hubris.

One example that always comes to mind when I think about this angle (while DS is calling and I have to shutup...) is epigenetics. I'm truely scared about the epigenetic changes that are known to occur from vaxing, and yet we blunder fully on, without the slightest sign of humility in the practice...

I wonder, do those vaxing parents who are "fully informed" know exactly what gene expressions they are changing in their offspring??

*climbing down off soapbox* :
I particularly like the computer analogy. DH is in IT - maybe it will allay some of his concerns?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
Haha...I just realised that coming to terms with the fact that there's something seriously wrong with the mass immunization program is sort of like going through the stages of grief.

denial...anger...acceptance....

Lol...I've worked through the anger stage (for the most part, although the CDC does raise my bloodpressure sometimes, still)...

ETA:
I was sort of joking, but I actually think it might be true...
http://www.counselingforloss.com/article8.htm

As an example, apply the 5 stages to a traumatic event most all of us have experienced: The Dead Battery! You're going to be late to work so you rush out to your car, place the key in the ignition and turn it on. You hear nothing but a grind; the battery is dead.


"There is no way docors would give kids shots if they weren't good for them. These antivaxes have to be insane!"

"OMG allopathic medicine is EVIL!"

"Ok...maybe I should start vaxing when she turns two..."

"We're doomed...Big Pharma is going to kill us all..."

"Whatever. Doctors are just a little bit brainwashed..."
Brilliant - although I see it didn't come our properly.... I'll try fix it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by knowerofnada View Post
This is exactly the response I get from friends & family. It's utterly frustrating. I try to point them to the gov't websites themselves as the most damning evidence of all, but they refuse to believe that could be the case and refuse to visit them. I am so angry at my parents right now -- they want to argue this vax issue left and right but do NOT want to bother researching the other side. After our intense hospital experience with DD this week I am getting so much flack. To hell with people who want to argue a point without researching.

I feel so alone in all this.
Me too! So alone and frustrated and overwhelmed. I just do not feel like I have the tools to know what I am talking about and how to wade through the amazing amounts of information while I try to me a present and loving mum to my DS. This doesn't make me want to vax - but it distresses me that I can't get my head around it all in an intelligent and comprehensive way....

This thread was so helpful to read through (DH took DS out for 2 hours and I could just read quietly without guilt)
post #400 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by mykdsmomy View Post
In light of recent threads, I've begun to really wonder why people who truly research decide to vax?
In my strong opinion, that is impossible. I don't believe anyone who says they researched and still chooses to vax. I just don't. I think they're lying. I honestly do.
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