What are the biggest more impressive arguments for Pro vaxers? - Page 3

[bri276]

Originally Posted by 2kids-mommy

www.ewg.org/reports/bodyburden1/es.php
The vast majority of chemicals people are exposed to come from sources other than vaccines.

so? that means we should add more by vaccinating?

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by bri276

when you hear a good provax reason- meaning, one that hasn't been completely disassembled, shredded up, chewed and spit out by the incredible wealth of knowledge in this forum that the provaxers haven't bothered to read- let me know. I'd like to hear it.

So, we have about 40 cases of tetanus a year in the US.
Find me 40 DT reactions that are as horrific as the 40 cases of tetanus.

[LongIsland]

Originally Posted by 2kids-mommy

www.ewg.org/reports/bodyburden1/es.php
The vast majority of chemicals people are exposed to come from sources other than vaccines.

Which vaccine ingredient causes the following recognized vaccine adverse reactions:

encephalitis
diabetes
thrombocytopenic purpura
GBS
meningitis
seizure disorder
convulsions
crying/screaming syndrome
diarrhea
hair loss
tranverse myelitis
multiple sclerosis
optic neuritis
chronic arthritis
death

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by 2kids-mommy

www.ewg.org/reports/bodyburden1/es.php
The vast majority of chemicals people are exposed to come from sources other than vaccines.

Have you seen this?
What do you think about it?
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ght=Chris+Shaw

[~member~]

Originally Posted by AikeaGuinea

What do you mean by "raw numbers"...what was your source for these numbers?

If you click here and scroll down to #4 there is a chart which explains "risk from disease vs. risk from vaccines"

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/...inepreventable

Research is underway by the U.S. Public Health Service to better understand which vaccine adverse events are truly caused by vaccines and how to reduce even further the already low risk of serious vaccine-related injury.

WHY hasn't this research been done already?!?!?!?!?!!??!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? :
How many more children must die or be permanently injured????

[suschi]

Originally Posted by huggerwocky

My child is more likely to be be harmed by the disease than by the vaccination. Easy decision. That's the main reason. Is it so mind boggling someone might have a different opinion?

Then someone went on to post a link from the CDC

Originally Posted by AikeaGuinea

What do you mean by "raw numbers"...what was your source for these numbers?

If you click here and scroll down to #4 there is a chart which explains "risk from disease vs. risk from vaccines"

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/...inepreventable

Well here's another quote from CDC about harm from disease risk vs harm from vaccines,


Decreases In Disease Risks

Today, vaccine-preventable diseases are at or near record lows. By virtue of their absence, these diseases are no longer reminders of the benefits of vaccination. At the same time, approximately 15,000 cases of adverse events following vaccination are reported in the United States each year (these include both true adverse reactions and events that occur coincidentally after vaccination). This number exceeds the current reported incidence of vaccine-preventable childhood diseases. As a result, parents and providers in the United States are more likely to know someone who has experienced an adverse event following immunization than they are to know someone who has experienced a reportable vaccine-preventable disease. Thus, the success of vaccination has led to increased public attention on health risks associated with vaccines.

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/pink/safety.pdf

My 4th child is still recovering from his 6 month round of vaccines, given on 9/27/99.

[LongIsland]

double post

[LongIsland]

Originally Posted by mamakay

So, we have about 40 cases of tetanus a year in the US.
Find me 40 DT reactions that are as horrific as the 40 cases of tetanus.

For 2005, fifty-six (56) reports of "death" following DT/DTaP (most within 24 hours of vaccination): http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/fin...O=1&PERPAGE=10

For 2005, forty-two (42) reports of "life threatening" reaction to DT/DTaP: http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/fin...O=1&PERPAGE=10

Of course, these are just the reported cases.

FTR, VAERS follows up with the provider and/or patient/parent with each of these types of reports.

[LongIsland]

Not only would it practically take a divine intervention for an unvaxed child to actually contract tetanus, but it would take two divine interventions for tetanus to kill a child.

A vaccinated child has a better chance dying from one of the DTaP vaccine doses, than an unvaccinated child even contracting tetanus, let alone dying from it.

[Proverbs31]

Originally Posted by kdtmom2be

well, I'm not in one of the three provinces with legal exemption, but I'll have to look into the "informed consent" part of things. thanks for the info.

Those are the only 3 provinces with laws on the books regarding vaccines; in other words, since there are no official laws in the other provinces you cannot be forced to vaccinate. Schools and doctors may tell you that you have to vaccinate because "its the laws" but there is no to back up that statement.

Take advantage of this; many of us in the US can only wish it was this easy for us to opt our kids out!

[Scattershoot]

Originally Posted by mamakay

So, we have about 40 cases of tetanus a year in the US.
Find me 40 DT reactions that are as horrific as the 40 cases of tetanus.

First, we have to define "horrific." From Merriam-Webster we get:

having the power to horrify

So we go to "horrify" and we get:

to cause to feel horror
to fill with distaste : SHOCK

Then we go to "horror" and we find:

painful and intense fear, dread, or dismay <astonishment giving place to horror on the faces of the people about me -- H. G. Wells> b : intense aversion or repugnance

I personally know 2 people who had "horrific" reactions to dt (not dpt as you left out the p part on purpose). Myself and a close friend. I've already detailed my reactions in other posts, and my friend suffered partial paralysis. His hands just started to function again after several months (they called in Guillain-Barre). That's two of your 40.

Here's a link to the contraindications for dt.

http://www.dhs.ca.gov/PS/dcdc/izgrou...IZ%20Guide.pdf

The National Institutes of Health define GB as rare b/c it affects less than 200,000 people per year. Finding exact numbers is hard but if it's anywhere in the tens of thousands that is a lot of "horrific" situations. I don't pretend to state that all GB cases are related to dt but let's also keep in mind the number of non-reported or under-reported cases. How many people's immune systems fall apart like mine did? It's ridiculous the lack of reporting of vaccine reactions by doctors. We will never, ever even come close to knowing real numbers to "horrific" reactions to dt.

[Proverbs31]

Originally Posted by Scattershoot

I personally know 2 people who had "horrific" reactions to dt (not dpt as you left out the p part on purpose). Myself and a close friend. I've already detailed my reactions in other posts, and my friend suffered partial paralysis. His hands just started to function again after several months (they called in Guillain-Barre). That's two of your 40.

Make that 3! The only vaccine I ever got in my entire life was a tetanus shot at 18 years old. About 10 minutes after the shot I collapsed and went into shock. Within 1 month my weight dropped down to 86lbs because my body was no longer absorbing nutrients from food. I had constant, watery diahrea (sp) and no energy whatsoever. It took a good 3 years to get my health back and to be able to keep some weight on.

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by LongIsland

For 2005, fifty-six (56) reports of "death" following DT/DTaP (most within 24 hours of vaccination): http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/fin...O=1&PERPAGE=10

For 2005, forty-two (42) reports of "life threatening" reaction to DT/DTaP: http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/fin...O=1&PERPAGE=10

Of course, these are just the reported cases.

FTR, VAERS follows up with the provider and/or patient/parent with each of these types of reports.

Well, you know how I like to play devil's advocate. And since you're taking me up on my argument, I guess I'll hash this out with you.

Let's nevermind children for a minute.
I can't argue that an unvaxed child has a snowball's chance of getting tetanus. But what about older adults?
Can you tell from VAERS which of those reactions were due to the "P" portion?

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by Scattershoot

The National Institutes of Health define GB as rare b/c it affects less than 200,000 people per year. Finding exact numbers is hard but if it's anywhere in the tens of thousands that is a lot of "horrific" situations. I don't pretend to state that all GB cases are related to dt but let's also keep in mind the number of non-reported or under-reported cases. How many people's immune systems fall apart like mine did? It's ridiculous the lack of reporting of vaccine reactions by doctors. We will never, ever even come close to knowing real numbers to "horrific" reactions to dt.

Yeah, GBS qualifies as horrific.
Hmm...

How can you estimate how many people a year might develop GBS after/because of the DT?

[chaoticzenmom]

I'd also say it's fear of disease. I decided to get the polio shot for my son and I got one dtap that caused a reaction. I will continue with the polio shot boosters, but not the dtap. At birth, I decided to get the vitamin k shot only because he's a 3rd child and his likeliness of bodily injury seemed high to me knowing my children.

My dh had mumps and said it wasn't that big of a deal, I had chicken pox and it wasn't a big deal. We're healthy, so I'm not that afraid of whooping cough, but I'd rather avoid it. Hep B? Not scared.

My first son was fully vaxed until 3 and my daughter was selectively vaxed until 18 months. My baby has had those three shots I talked about earlier.

The thing that made me start to research was that when my daughter was born 5 years ago, the doctor came into my room to do the hep b shot. I said "why does she need that shot?" and the dr said "it's no big deal, we can wait until later" So, I felt that she was really against giving the shot to my daughter. I started asking more questions after that. It's like, before, I never realized that I had a choice and that these things could just wait until later, or were entirely optional.

Lisa (mom of 3 wonderful children)

[LongIsland]

Originally Posted by mamakay

Well, you know how I like to play devil's advocate. And since you're taking me up on my argument, I guess I'll hash this out with you.

Let's nevermind children for a minute.
I can't argue that an unvaxed child has a snowball's chance of getting tetanus. But what about older adults?
Can you tell from VAERS which of those reactions were due to the "P" portion?

Now I understand why you want to concentrate on older adults because of the virtually nonexistent chance of an unvaxed child getting tetanus, but that's changed now with the recent licensure of two Tdap vaccines. Tdap has been recommended to replace T and Td for all adolescents and adults AND regardless of whether you're in the ER with a wound.

Let's also talk about the tetanus "high riskers." Those being IV drug users (IDU's) and diabetics and how they fit into the annual tetanus incidence rate.

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by LongIsland

Now I understand why you want to concentrate on older adults because of the virtually nonexistent chance of an unvaxed child getting tetanus, but that's changed now with the recent licensure of two Tdap vaccines. Tdap has been recommended to replace T and Td for all adolescents and adults AND regardless of whether you're in the ER with a wound.

Let's also talk about IV drug users and diabetics and how they fit into the annual tetanus incidence rate.

What's going to happen with the Tdap regarding reactions is an unknown so far. Maybe adults won't react? Maybe it'll be unreal how many reactions there are?
Who knows?

Honestly, this keeps boiling down to unknowns on both sides, although the "provax" side gets unspoken bonus points for being "official" for some illogical reason.
That's the problem with VAERS, too. Yes, some of the reported reactions will probably be "coincidence". But it makes no sense to assume because some will be coincidence that ALL of them have to be coincidence. And that logical fallacy that pediatricians are so universally prone to make is what shields manufacturers from having to pay a dime when their product kills people.

So...I dunno. There's a lot of guesswork happening no matter which side you argue.

[mykdsmomy]

Originally Posted by mamakay

So...I dunno. There's a lot of guesswork happening no matter which side you argue.

But it is guesswork or unknowns favored by the pro vax side? Ughhh it's kind of like I'm laying in the street dying and two guys come up....one in a suit and one that appears homeless.....they both offer me medicine but the guy in the suit offers me medicine from his pocket...not in a bottle....the homeless guy offers me medicine that is completely sealed ....which one do I trust? I'd probably trust the clean guy in the suit because even though he has the more risky medicine, he fits in better with society and can be trusted more. Ok, REALLY BAD analogy but it made sense to me

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by mykdsmomy

But it is guesswork or unknowns favored by the pro vax side? Ughhh it's kind of like I'm laying in the street dying and two guys come up....one in a suit and one that appears homeless.....they both offer me medicine but the guy in the suit offers me medicine from his pocket...not in a bottle....the homeless guy offers me medicine that is completely sealed ....which one do I trust? I'd probably trust the clean guy in the suit because even though he has the more risky medicine, he fits in better with society and can be trusted more. Ok, REALLY BAD analogy but it made sense to me

I think that's a perfect analogy, actually. I totally, totally see what you mean.
The unknowns do make you want to default to trusting the CDC/doctors. But when you logically work it out, their actual arguments aren't all that.

Eh, what a messy thing to try to wrap your mind around.

[bri276]

Originally Posted by mamakay

So, we have about 40 cases of tetanus a year in the US.
Find me 40 DT reactions that are as horrific as the 40 cases of tetanus.

someone else already did- but now you show me evidence that I should worry about tetanus. even if you only want to focus on adults. 40 cases of tetanus out of how many people who are not up to date on their tetanus vax? with what type of wound care? with what immune system issues or living conditions?