What are the biggest more impressive arguments for Pro vaxers? - Page 5

[lyttlewon]

Originally Posted by prettypixels

Roosevelt contracted polio as a perfectly healthy adult. He didn't *die*, but I doubt he'd have called polio harmless.
http://www.americanpresident.org/his...lanoroosevelt/

How do you know that FDR was a perfectly healthy adult? What do you know about his personal health profile?

ETA I did a google of FDR and it turns out he was a chain smoker. Not exactly what I would consider healthy.

[iamleabee]

i would like to post another article and avoid copyright infringment issues (unlike last post).

i found this article interesting.
here is a blurb:

We found that websites critical of vaccines claim that vaccines cause illness, claim that vaccines are contaminated, promote the idea that the vaccines are only temporarily effective, encourage alternative medicine, claim conventional medicine is wrong, make emotive appeals, and make ethical allegations about conspiracy, cover-up, civil liberty violations, totalitarianism, and immorality...many of the arguments in use today parallel those used in the past. For instance, during the late 19th century, objections to smallpox and typhoid vaccinations included the following: vaccination is against the laws of nature, good hygiene provides adequate protection against disease, vaccines can transmit other diseases, and compulsory vaccination is a violation of one's liberty [34,35]. These arguments are similar to those espoused by current vaccine critics who hold that natural therapies and alternative medicine are preferable for prevention of infectious disease, vaccines cause idiopathic illness, and school entry vaccination requirements violate civil liberties [13,14]. Furthermore, the ethical allegations remain quite strident, including purported collusion among government, the medical establishment, and pharmaceutical companies that is motivated by profit [35]. Finally, opponents of vaccination dramatize relatively rare adverse events to overshadow vaccination's enormous public health benefits [15]. This is an especially effective tactic now, as the toll from a number of infectious diseases fades from the public memory {as a result of universal vaccinations}.

source: J Med Internet Res. 2005 Apr–Jun; 7{2}: e17.
Published online 2005 June 29. doi: 10.2196/jmir.7.2.e17.
Copyright © Richard K Zimmerman, Robert M Wolfe, Dwight E Fox, Jake R Fox, Mary Patricia Nowalk, Judith A Troy, Lisa K Sharp. Originally published in the Journal of Medical Internet Research {http://www.jmir.org}, 29.6.2005. Except where otherwise noted, articles published in the Journal of Medical Internet Research are distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License {http://www.creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/}, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited, including full bibliographic details and the URL {see "please cite as" above}, and this statement is included.
Vaccine Criticism on the World Wide Web
Richard K Zimmerman, MD, MPH, 1,2 Robert M Wolfe, MD,3 Dwight E Fox, DMD,1 Jake R Fox, MA,1 Mary Patricia Nowalk, PhD, RD,1 Judith A Troy, MS,1 and Lisa K Sharp, PhD3
Richard K Zimmerman, Department of Family Medicine and Clinical Epidemiology, University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine, 3518 5th Avenue, Pittsburgh, PA 15261, USA, Phone: [phone], Fax: [phone], Email: [e-mail].
Reviewed by L Nasir and Julie Leask
3Department of Family Medicine, Feinberg School of Medicine, Northwestern University, Chicago, IL, USA
2Department of Behavioral and Community Health Sciences, University of Pittsburgh Graduate School of Public Health, Pittsburgh, PA, USA
1Department of Family Medicine and Clinical Epidemiology, University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine, Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Corresponding author.
Received January 28, 2005; Revisions requested February 25, 2005; Revised May 16, 2005; Accepted June 8, 2005.
The publisher's final edited version of this article is available at J Med Internet Res.
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by lyttlewon

How do you know that FDR was a perfectly healthy adult? What do you know about his personal health profile?

ETA I did a google of FDR and it turns out he was a chain smoker. Not exactly what I would consider healthy.

It couldn't have been polio, anyway. Polio is an enterovirus, and was absolutely endemic in the prevaccine era. No person in the US could avoid contracting it in childhood. Sort of like how rotavirus is now. It's a given that your kid is definitely going to catch it.

That's why now they think it had to be GBS, not polio. Paralytic polio in adulthood was virually impossible because everyone was immune to the virus by the end of childhood.

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by iamleabee

i would like to post another article and avoid copyright infringment issues (unlike last post).

i found this article interesting.
here is a blurb:

We found that websites critical of vaccines claim that vaccines cause illness, claim that vaccines are contaminated, promote the idea that the vaccines are only temporarily effective, encourage alternative medicine, claim conventional medicine is wrong, make emotive appeals, and make ethical allegations about conspiracy, cover-up, civil liberty violations, totalitarianism, and immorality...many of the arguments in use today parallel those used in the past. For instance, during the late 19th century, objections to smallpox and typhoid vaccinations included the following: vaccination is against the laws of nature, good hygiene provides adequate protection against disease, vaccines can transmit other diseases, and compulsory vaccination is a violation of one's liberty [34,35]. These arguments are similar to those espoused by current vaccine critics who hold that natural therapies and alternative medicine are preferable for prevention of infectious disease, vaccines cause idiopathic illness, and school entry vaccination requirements violate civil liberties [13,14]. Furthermore, the ethical allegations remain quite strident, including purported collusion among government, the medical establishment, and pharmaceutical companies that is motivated by profit [35]. Finally, opponents of vaccination dramatize relatively rare adverse events to overshadow vaccination's enormous public health benefits [15]. This is an especially effective tactic now, as the toll from a number of infectious diseases fades from the public memory {as a result of universal vaccinations}.

.

Yeah, that's us to some extent. The question is, are we right or are we wrong?

Would you like to discuss the "vaccines are contaminated" claim first?
That's my personal favorite. :

[mykdsmomy]

Originally Posted by iamleabee

i would like to post another article and avoid copyright infringment issues (unlike last post).

Finally, opponents of vaccination dramatize relatively rare adverse events to overshadow vaccination's enormous public health benefits [15]. This is an especially effective tactic now, as the toll from a number of infectious diseases fades from the public memory {as a result of universal vaccinations}.

Articles like this are a dime a dozen but where is the PROOF? They state "relatively rare adverse events" but what proof do they use to back that up? Prepare for another bad analogy but these articles remind me of the kid on the playground that's bullying someone and his friends are behind him going "yeah, yeah" and repeating everything he's saying without THINKING for themselves....grrrrr

[mamakay]

Iamleabee, what do you make of this?
It's an FDA meeting on the issue of animal viruses accidentally making it into vaccines and infecting people.
They go over the ones you can find in pubmed like SV40 in the OPV, and BVDV in the MMR first, and then there's this:

http://www.fda.gov/cber/minutes/0910evolv.txt

Now the regulatory authorities in the room will be well aware of a large number of other examples of this type which don't actually get published. I think that's not so good. I think this stuff really should be out there in the public literature. But nonetheless, these are the ones which are well known, I think.

I understand from some of the remarks that have been made that there are others that are known to a small coterie of people here that have not been publicly declared. I urge all of you to think about this seriously because it can and will have a great impact on this industry. Thank you.

DR. MINOR: I agree totally with that. It does seem to me that sooner or later the information will leak out. I think the industry looks very bad.

(bolding mine)

[sophiekat]

Originally Posted by mykdsmomy

Articles like this are a dime a dozen but where is the PROOF? They state "relatively rare adverse events" but what proof do they use to back that up? Prepare for another bad analogy but these articles remind me of the kid on the playground that's bullying someone and his friends are behind him going "yeah, yeah" and repeating everything he's saying without THINKING for themselves....grrrrr

:

[FrederickMama]

Originally Posted by mykdsmomy

But could one argue that there are perhaps different strains of measles in Germany than in the US and/or vaccines have caused some strains of measles to be more resistant to conventional treatment and therefore vaccinating here would protect kids against said super bugs? (does that make sense?)

ETA: by conventional treatment, I mean chicken soup and vit c...no vaccines

In reference to the measles "parties" - My MIL grew up in NYC in the 30's and 40's and they had measles parties there too. She also remembers taking her oldest son to a mumps "party" in the 60's.

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by mykdsmomy

Articles like this are a dime a dozen but where is the PROOF? They state "relatively rare adverse events" but what proof do they use to back that up? Prepare for another bad analogy but these articles remind me of the kid on the playground that's bullying someone and his friends are behind him going "yeah, yeah" and repeating everything he's saying without THINKING for themselves....grrrrr

It's called "ad hominem" and it's a very effective provaccine argument.

[iamleabee]

Originally Posted by mamakay

Yeah, that's us to some extent. The question is, are we right or are we wrong?

Would you like to discuss the "vaccines are contaminated" claim first?
That's my personal favorite. :

"are we right or are we wrong?" i don't know that that question can be answered. i'm pretty sure i can't answer it.

but somebody else wrote a while back that they do not see how any thinking knowlegeable person can choose to immunize their child. that's short sighted. some of the data supporting immunizations are very very good. some of the anti-vax data is pretty bad, and alot of it is connected with various religious groups, anecdotal evidence, and offers to buy things.

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by iamleabee

"are we right or are we wrong?" i don't know that that question can be answered. i'm pretty sure i can't answer it.

but somebody else wrote a while back that they do not see how any thinking knowlegeable person can choose to immunize their child. that's short sighted. some of the data supporting immunizations are very very good. some of the anti-vax data is pretty bad, and alot of it is connected with various religious groups, anecdotal evidence, and offers to buy things.

We don't use bad data in this forum, and I, for one, acknowledge valid provaccine arguments. (Like I was doing with tetanus.)
It's not a black and white issue in my mind. I don't think vaxers are stupid.
But there's provaccine "bad data", too. And they're selling stuff, too. Obviously...lol...

[aira]

Prettypixels, didn't we go over this bit about measles causing deafness with Shodan?

Please show me where this happens?

[sophiekat]

Originally Posted by iamleabee

"are we right or are we wrong?" i don't know that that question can be answered. i'm pretty sure i can't answer it.

but somebody else wrote a while back that they do not see how any thinking knowlegeable person can choose to immunize their child. that's short sighted. some of the data supporting immunizations are very very good. some of the anti-vax data is pretty bad, and alot of it is connected with various religious groups, anecdotal evidence, and offers to buy things.

can you provide us links to this "very very good" data? and links of connections to religious groups or offers to buy things? or are you merely giving us anecdotes?

[jessicaSAR]

Originally Posted by iamleabee

"are we right or are we wrong?" i don't know that that question can be answered. i'm pretty sure i can't answer it.

but somebody else wrote a while back that they do not see how any thinking knowlegeable person can choose to immunize their child. that's short sighted. some of the data supporting immunizations are very very good. some of the anti-vax data is pretty bad, and alot of it is connected with various religious groups, anecdotal evidence, and offers to buy things.

Perhaps you are right, and definitive answers are hard, but I think we can take each of the claims one by one, as mamakay suggests, and see it the arguments are compelling. Wouldn't that be a rational, good evidence approach?

So, are vaccines contaminated?

[jessicaSAR]

BTW, I am completely willing to be convinced by good arguments, evidence and logic. But vague references to good data, and claims that there are scary websites out there don't fall into the good arguments category for me.

Come on, back to the OP, let's hear some good arguments for vaccines. I am all ears.

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by sophiekat

can you provide us links to this "very very good" data? and links of connections to religious groups or offers to buy things? or are you merely giving us anecdotes?

No, they exist. I've come across those sites. But most the posters here ignore sites like those since they're questionable. Google "shirley's wellness cafe" if you want to see a goofy antivax site selling weird stuff.

That's not where we get our information from, though. I think provaxers think we do, but we don't.

[JesseMomme]

I've thoroughly read this thread and have yet to see anything big or impressive so I'll just sit back and keep eating my popcorn and wait. : I'd love to paricipate more fully but my poor keyboard has been broken...

Just so you know I've been waiting for big and impressive for over five years now.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by iamleabee

source: J Med Internet Res. 2005 Apr–Jun; 7{2}: e17.
Published online 2005 June 29. doi: 10.2196/jmir.7.2.e17.
Copyright © Richard K Zimmerman, Robert M Wolfe, Dwight E Fox, Jake R Fox, Mary Patricia Nowalk, Judith A Troy, Lisa K Sharp. Originally published in the Journal of Medical Internet Research {http://www.jmir.org}, 29.6.2005. Except where otherwise noted, articles published in the Journal of Medical Internet Research are distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License {http://www.creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/}, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited, including full bibliographic details and the URL {see "please cite as" above}, and this statement is included.

Please note the part where it says "INCLUDING FULL BIBLIOGRAPHIC DETAILS AND THE URL"

Also, moderators here on MDC are volunteers. We actually don't have the time (nor the inclination, frankly) to chase down the details on the copyright status of every quote on the board.

Therefore, kindly
1. Keep your blurbs to 100 words or less.
2. Clearly mark them with the quote function so it is painfully obvious which part is a quote and which part are your own words.
3. ALWAYS include a citation or working URL.

Copyright policy

If you have questions or concerns, please PM one of the Vaccination mods, as questioning moderator actions on the board is against the User Agreement.

[iamleabee]

bad data, IMHO:

“I helplessly watched my daughter suffer an excruciatingly slow death as she screamed and arched her back in pain, while the vaccine did as it was intended to do and assaulted her immature immune system. The poisons used as preservatives seeped through her tiny body, overwhelming her vital organs one by one until they collapsed. It is an image that will haunt me forever and I hope no other parent ever has to witness it. A death sentence considered too inhumane for this county's most violent criminals was handed down to my beautiful, innocent, infant daughter, death by lethal injection.”
(www.mercola.com/2002/aug/7/vaccine_death.htm)

“Then one word can describe this new video, 'Vaccines: What CDC Documents and Science Reveal,' by world-renowned vaccine expert Dr. Sherri Tenpenny: essential. To put it simply, if you are dedicated to protecting and enhancing your life, your family's, or your patients', but you have not been exposed to the often startling but thoroughly documented information in this video, there is a dangerous gap in your knowledge. Whether you have explored the issue of the dangers of vaccines extensively or not at all, I more than recommend you watch this video—I implore you to do so. Available on VHS. Just $24.95.”
(www.mercola.com/forms/vaccine_video.htm)


(the quote below is from a reverend who is pro-life and is antivax because many vaxes are cultured on stem cells. but she does not disclose her religious bias in her anti-vax statements.)

REFUSAL OF RECOMMENDED VACCINES



Patient Name_______________________________ Birthdate_______________

As the parent/guardian of __________________________, I have investigated the risks and benefits of the following vaccines and diseases. I am aware that there are documented cases of people contracting diseases for which they are clinically fully immunized and that the manufacturers of the vaccines do not guarantee 100% efficacy. I am also aware that VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System) documented cases of over 54,000 adverse reactions from vaccines in a 20-month period. The National Vaccine Injury Fund, created in 1986 to compensate those damaged by vaccines has paid out over one billion dollars in compensation to date.

from: Complied by Rev. Kathryn E. Rateliff, CCD, CCCE, SM
October, 1999

Kathy is an ordained minister, certified christian doula (CCD), certified christian childbirth educator (CCCE), graduate midwife, parenting educator, monitrice, administrator for T2 Shepherd Ministries, volunteer staff chaplain at the Tarrant County jail, wife and professional mom. In addition to her two surviving natural children, Kathy has a daugther-in-love, adopted children, step-children, and foster children. Her total number of children as of October, 2004 is 75. their ministry believes: Jesus, fully God and fully man, came to bring reconciliation between God the Father and His children. He lived a sinless life, spent three and one half years in ministry to show us the Father, instituted the church, died a horrible death on the cross to pay our sin penalty, and rose victorious three days later to show His power over death, hell and the grave. He took stripes on His back for our healing, and took our shame on Himself so that we could stand righteous in Him before the Father. We believe He sits at the right hand of the Father, ever interceeding for us. We believe He will return for those believers who look for Him some day soon, and we shall meet Him in the air. We believe He will return bodily to reign and rule on the earth for a thousand years and that His Saints will return with Him to work.


next post: data i find persuasive

[Mirzam]

Given the cases of measles, rubella, polio and pertussis amongst the Amish, is the feeling there that the Amish only get them because *they* are unhealthy?
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PublicHe...ealth/tb1/1935

pp I am not Amish, but I got measles, rubella (and mumps for that matter) as a healthy child. Do you realize there actually benefits to these diseases?

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=582840