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Forcing gender roles on young children - Page 5

post #81 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
As long as we're discussing desires and not behavior, it is silly, because it's self-evident that preferences of any kind are not chosen. Our desires are not of our own deliberate making. That goes whether it's preference for vanilla vs. chocolate, Fords vs. Chevies, or toilet paper over or under. In some cases we can give reasons for our preferences, but those reasons are in turn based on other preferences, etc.

If sexuality is more narrowly construed as a behavior pattern, then you can say it's a choice the same way pursuing any of our desires is a choice. You could even behave sexually a certain way without liking it, just to please someone else; but then you have to ask why you choose to please a particular person, or even other people in general.

Robert
I'm not sure where you're going with this idea. If we agree that sexual orientation is not a "choice" in the terms we're discussing it, I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me, or what. Please clarify.

Oh, also, I just want to add... I do believe there are quite a few individuals who are simply bisexual, and choose one sex or the other at a different time in their life due to changing needs. That seems to make sense and I've seen people IRL who have done that, a time or two.

However, I do not believe that someone's sexuality itself is fluid and everchanging, as the previous poster stated. I know very few lesbians who suddenly woke up one day to find they had become heterosexuals.
post #82 of 255
what does frosted and toasted mean? I keep seeing it on people's signatures.
-Cyndi
post #83 of 255
(LB - check your PM box)
post #84 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by KristiMetz View Post

Oh, also, I just want to add... I do believe there are quite a few individuals who are simply bisexual, and choose one sex or the other at a different time in their life due to changing needs. That seems to make sense and I've seen people IRL who have done that, a time or two.

However, I do not believe that someone's sexuality itself is fluid and everchanging, as the previous poster stated. I know very few lesbians who suddenly woke up one day to find they had become heterosexuals.

Your first paragraph is a great example of your disbelief in sexuality being fluid and everchanging stated in your second paragraph. And I do know many self-identified lesbians who are now married to a man with kids and I know many who identified as straight who are now in lesbian relationships.
post #85 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by KristiMetz View Post
Robert - regarding the "nature vs. nurture" nature of homosexuality, here is an article which sums up some of the evidence found for homsexuality's origins :

http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html
Interesting link, thanks, Kay. About a decade ago I went to a talk at UMDNJ by someone who gave a plausible account, as well as some evidence, of a genetic factor in homosexuality, if "homosexuality" be construed partway between desire and behavior. There is evidence that alleles at a certain locus are involved in propensity to avoid risk, and that being homosexual involves risk taking. People who have less aversion to the social risk of disapproval are more likely to act on homosexual impulses if they have them to begin with. The more likely they are to act on them, the more likely they are to identify that way.

Robert
post #86 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by KristiMetz View Post
If we agree that sexual orientation is not a "choice" in the terms we're discussing it, I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me, or what. Please clarify.
I don't know how I can be any clearer! I'll just restate, and maybe it comes out clearer, maybe not.

Desires, preferences...they're not chosen. None of them are chosen, whether they relate to sexuality or to any other field in which a person prefers A to B. You can't make yourself like or dislike anything; you might be able to get used to something or jaded or blase about it, but that only affects your degree of enthusiasm or aversion. People usually understand that tastes are involuntary, but somehow sexuality is singled out as a special, mysterious case among tastes, which it's not.

Robert
post #87 of 255
Dh and I often debate about behavior vs. character, or "self". He thinks when someone asks him to change a behavior (let's say, using the word "Dude" is the behavior) that he is being asked to change who he is. But this is not the case.

There is a HUGE gulf of difference between behavior and character. What exists, on a cellular level, in the human brain changes, on a cellular level, ONLY when catalystc agents are introduced. Example, a typical "chemically balanced" individual may test as one with Bi-polar disorder, after 5 years as a cocaine addict, because cocaine has a catalystic effect on the chemical balance in the brain, and can permanently upset that balance. Same with methamphetamine. But, other than through the introduction of and prolonged exposure to such chemicals (some meds fall into this category) there is no way to change the genetic/cellular make-up of the brain.

HOWEVER, one can chose to BEHAVE in a way that is diametrically opposed to the brain's blue-print. Hence the transexual man who innately desires to live as woman, feels yearnings to be a mother, to marry a man, to have sex with her husband, etc, but CHOOSES to live as a man, burying his true "self" because of any number of reason, not the least of which is fear.

Likewise, the "straight" girl in college who BEHAVES in a homosexual way after a few wine-coolers. She is not homosexual, her brain defined her sexuality in utero, she yearns to have sex with men, and someday to get married and have a child or 4, or whatever, but she also gets tipsy enough to be brave and get it on with her room mate. It is a BEHAVIOR, until she has her own personal realization that this behavior is more than that, perhaps a "truer" expression of her "actual" desires, and therefor an expression of her "self". Thereby, do we see the formerly "straight" individual come out of the closet, so to speak.

Point is, there is no ONE FLAT TRUTH, there are a myriad different mixes of behavior and character that pan out into gender ROLES and ACTUAL gender. The only facts are that we're finally in a place where we have the ability to start mapping out the process of sexual assignment. and it's becoming VERY clear that it is NOT just simply a choice. Sexual assignment, GENDER, as new studies show, since 2000, is far more likely to be caused by brain architecture in the womb, chemical signature. This will not account for personal behaviors individuals exhibit due to fear, or conditioning, their actual internal workings notwithstanding.

No one can TURN a kid gay.
post #88 of 255
As far as the colors go, I think boys look cutest in those colors and that girls look cutest in pinks and purples. It has nothing to do with programming them for me. I let my boy stomp around in my heels all the time, and if he wants to play with girl toys, fine. However, I just want to point out that the traditional boy/girl toys don't exist to program them to be boys or girls or behave a certain way. There are differences between boys and girls, period. This is not always true. Many boys will always love dolls; many girls will always love cars. However, the reason certain toys are marketted to boys and certain ones to girls is because those are the toys that those genders are most likely to like and enjoy. My son would MUCH rather play with cars than barbies, so that's what we buy him. The girls that come here for daycare always go straight for the 'girl' toys like stuffed animals and dolls. I don't believe in forcing gender roles upon children, but I also don't agree that dressing them in certain colors or giving them the toys that they are most likely to enjoy based on their gender is doing that. What does pink vs red have to do with gender roles anyway? Are girls supposed to act pink and boys act blue? I know some people don't believe there are differences between genders, but if you want proof, take a look of the story of the little boy whose circumcision was botched and then was raised as a girl. He knew he was a boy; he always liked 'boy toys.' He eventually shot himself. We shouldn't force the gender roles on children but we shouldn't be concerned about people who do have children who like toys associated with specific genders and who thus buy those toys for their children.

As far as being gay goes, I think that has a lot more to do with biology and possibly what is acceptable/fashionable in society (I say that because, throughout history, if you look at the culture, what is considered beautiful does affect sexuality; men were seen as objects of beaty in ancient Greece, and homosexuality was common...then later in Greece, women were seen more as the creatures of beauty, and homosexuality decreased...just an observation) than with what colors a kid wears or what toys/activities they do. I don't believe homosexuality is a choice, but I do believe it is fluid and is affected by many factors. Being gay isn't about washing dishes vs fixing cars anyway. You can't turn a kid gay. Sexuality is way too complex for a person to be able to make a kid gay by having them do things that aren't 'traditional roles' for their gender. Besides, as a bi but married woman, I wouldn't mind my son being gay. My issue would be with the way the world decided to treat him as a result.

I'm always irked by people who preach about buying only gender neutral toys... my son loves 'boy' toys. He rarely has as much fun with wooden rattles as he does with big red tonka trucks.
post #89 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by wemoon View Post
Your first paragraph is a great example of your disbelief in sexuality being fluid and everchanging stated in your second paragraph. And I do know many self-identified lesbians who are now married to a man with kids and I know many who identified as straight who are now in lesbian relationships.
People who already have bisexual tendencies may change their situations over time, but the important distinction here is that these people were already bisexual... their innate sexual orientation did not change.

No, sexual orientation is not fluid. I strongly disagree with that. I'm really surprised to hear that coming from you. If sexual orientation were so "fluid" then these gay-conversion camps would have SOME level of success... but they don't, because as much as some of those people would like to change the fact that they are gay, they simply cannot.

Many people's sexuality already falls somewhere in the spectrum between being completely hetro and completely homo -sexual, yes, I agree. But as far as it actually changing, no, I do not believe that is true, and have never seen any evidence that it is so. You may know lesbians who later got married, but I can't imagine that women suddenly started grossing them out, and I can't imagine that they previously thought men were icky, unless it was an issue brought on by their experiences in life.
post #90 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
I don't know how I can be any clearer! I'll just restate, and maybe it comes out clearer, maybe not.

I'm sorry... you're being kind of rude, so I've lost interest in the conversation now. Too much like my ex-husband.
post #91 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
Either of the first two would be a major finding in human physiology. The last would say that the intelligence can develop in the unconscious far ahead of its development in conscious thought, which would also be astounding.
Citations, please?
post #92 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by pookel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman
Either of the first two would be a major finding in human physiology. The last would say that the intelligence can develop in the unconscious far ahead of its development in conscious thought, which would also be astounding.
Citations, please?
Huh? How can I cite the absence of evidence? I'm saying that nobody has published a finding like hers before; it would be news. So what are you asking me to cite?

Robert
post #93 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by KristiMetz View Post
I'm sorry... you're being kind of rude, so I've lost interest in the conversation now.
Yet you were moved to write that you'd lost interest. Hey, I did what you asked, and you reamed me for it.
post #94 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by teachma View Post
This reminds me that teachers can also make an impact by no longer using "girls" and "boys" as an arbitrary way to split a class in half. You know, like if the students need to be walking in 2 lines, why not just two lines rather than a girls' line and a boys' line? Or playing a game in the classroom? Don't divide teams by gender. Just make 'em even. The gender division in schools is still huge, and even younger teachers use it. It's handy and quick-- "Girls on that side of the room, boys on the other." But so unnecesary, and so reinforcing of the gender difference when it is totally avoidable.
When I am pointing out gender in my classroom, it is to counteract what my students do to themselves. If we have "popcorn" (uncalled on, volunteer) reading, ONLY the boys will read. So now we first do a boys only popcorn read, then a girls only popcorn read. If the students are calling on each other to answer problems, the girls will only call on girls and the boys will only call on boys. . . so, new rule, boys call on a girl and girls call on a boy. Utterly annoying. I don't like to pigeon-hole the kids. Who an I to say what gender they identify with? I'm just trying to hear more voices in the classroom.
post #95 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy View Post
:

And I disagree with the idea that children are asexual beings; I've encountered many homosexual and heterosexual people who say that they've always known that they were whatever orientation, from the time they can remember. I've met small children who were decidedly hetero or homosexual in orientation, despite the fact that they were most assuredly not looking for sexual partners. What, you think it just spontaneously happens when the kids are 12/14/16? Please. The kids know, the parents know, long before they're thinking about dating or kissing or any such thing. Sexual orientation has to do with a lot more than intercourse, and it's determined long before intercourse becomes a viable option.
I totally agree with you there. Children often know at a very young age, from experience with family.

What was I watching, some 20/20 or Barbara Walters or something that spoke of that article about sexual orientation being determined en utero and the interviewed parents of the LBTG folks all knew their kids were not hetero at a VERY young age. Some said 18 months.
post #96 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by KristiMetz View Post
No, sexual orientation is not fluid. I strongly disagree with that. I'm really surprised to hear that coming from you. If sexual orientation were so "fluid" then these gay-conversion camps would have SOME level of success... but they don't, because as much as some of those people would like to change the fact that they are gay, they simply cannot.
So sexual orientation is unlike orientation regarding anything other than sex? (Because orientation concerning other things can surely change over the course of one's life.) And the evidence for that is just the failure of some cockamamie camps to deliberately change anyone's sex preference?

Regarding other tastes, do you know of any other successes deliberately changing someone's preferences in them? Not just overlaying an aversion or suppressing action, but actually changing what someone likes to a different, deliberately chosen pattern? And not just persuading someone with facts about something? (I mean you can persuade someone to choose A over B by presenting facts that A is better than B. But I'm referring here to matters of taste, not fact-based preferences.)

Was there ever anything you liked a lot, but got tired of thru repeated exposure? And then switched to something else? Could you not imagine someone going thru that process with sexuality?

Robert
post #97 of 255
Kristi, I am a perfect example of sexuality (complete with mindset) changing. It actually goes back to what I originally said, that sexuality is a social construct. I only dated boys in high school, dated boys in college, was in a relationship with a man that I had kids with, because that is what I was 'supposed' to do. I've now identified as a lesbian for the past 2 years and have had a wonderful girlfriend for most of that. I am completely disgusted by the thought of ever being with a man again, even though I spent years upon years of my life being with men. I don't know if this is just something I didn't realize young or what, but I do know that my attraction to men was just as real as my attraction to women now.

I do know of others with experiences very similar or of the exact opposite. This is one big reason why I say that sexuality is fluid. You are not set for life in one role and it is OK to come out later in life after having a completely heterosexual life thus far and it is also OK to start having heterosexual relationships after only being in homosexual ones your whole life. The key is, is that this is each person's own desire. That is why camps like you described don't work. It's horrible that such places even exist. People should be allowed to express their sexuality in whatever manner fits them.
post #98 of 255
My girls are very girly, and always have been.

They have barbies, because my oldest asked for them. So I got a series of used barbies and clothes, and made sure to pick up barbies that are not just white blondes.

I also found all the female rescue heroes for them to play with.

They have Doras. I hate Dora, she yells and you can't turn anything down. They have a Dora CD player, and it has a volume button that works for every function except Dora's voice! But at least Dora is an adventurer.

They have their own brooms, and a kitchen set, and go to dance classes. And she plays mini-tyke lacrosse. I understand the other mothers started calling her the lacrosse princess. She wants to go to Martial Arts classes.

We go to the library and the oldest looks for books with girls in them. Sometimes they are girly-girls, and sometimes not.
post #99 of 255
My 11 yo son wanted his toenails painted pink until he was about 4.

Both of my boys and my Dh let me give them peidcures monthly-I trim their toenails (yuck, yes ) and paint them with clear coats...

My boys both wore my dresses and pumps for years-I have a picture of Ds in my Dds dress, I have to find that and post it (He was 6 at the time!)

My Dd loves to play with the boys toys, just as much as she loves playing with her dolls.

My 7yo Ds's favorite color is pink. My mom made the kids scarves and she asked them all what color they wanted....Ds 11 said green. dd said blue and Ds7 said pink. Mom would NOT make him a pink scarf b/c she said "The kids at school will tease him and I won't be a part of that..."

Whatever, I'll buy him a shirt with pink stirpes, I don't care

**off to search for the picture of Ds in a skirt now
post #100 of 255
Quote:
firemoon, I can't say it any plainer than this, most of what you wrote is just utter bs. Seriously, it's not even worth arguing over. You obviously just don't get it.
Are you talking to me? I'm moonfirefaery, not firemoon. If you were talking to someone by that name, rather than me, I'm sorry.

The point wasn't for me to "get" anything; it was for me to express how I feel about the subject. That I disagree with whatever you or anyone else may think doesn't mean that I "don't get it."

What exactly that I wrote was BS? Is it BS for me personally to think my son looks cutest in blue and green, being that's what his eyecolor is? If colors are so much to do with gender identity and behavior, why don't you explain to me why? How does a girl act pink or a boy act blue? How do pink and blue influence behavior? I wear pink all the time because I love it. Consequently my son enjoys prancing around in my pink clothes. Does that mean I am trying to program him to be a girl, to be gay? Right now he's wearing blue, because that's just what I picked out for him to wear. Am I trying to program him to like or act blue by doing so? WOW, I must be confusing the hell out of hiim from dressing him in pink and blue and so many other colors, if we are to believe that putting a child in a certain color is going to program them to favor that color or act a certain way.

Is it BS that I buy my son cars because that is what he likes to play with? Am I lying about that? I don't see how you'd know as much about MY son and his interests as me, but whatever. Am I lying when I say that the girls who come here go straight for the 'girl' toys, even the babies? Is that BS? Again, considering that is MY experience, I don't see how you'd know more about it than me but again--whatever.

Do you disagree that boys and girls are different? Do you think they are the same? Am I lying about the little boy raised as a girl, programmed as a girl, whose boy personality prevailed? That story is true; he is a living example that boys and girls are different, that gender identity is programmed from birth. Go google it; the child eventually shot himself because the doctor kept proclaiming the experiment a success.

Do you disagree that boys usually like toys generally created for boys and girls usually like toys created for boys, hence the reason those toys were created? Not EVERYTHING in our society that has come to be is about programming; life isn't only about conspiracy. I am sure some people give their children toys to program them into their roles, but the toy companies create and aim toys at specific genders because that is what, statistically and according to their studies and focus groups, kids of that specific gender will enjoy. Go read any child development book, and it will graze upon the fact that boys usually like toys they can push around, cars, things they can do stuff with while girls are usually more attracted to dolls, stuffed animals, and books even in the toddler years. My son happens to LOVE his play kitchen, just as much as he loves his trike, but when little girls come here, it's usually the first thing they go for--even the babies. That is my experience, and it's also the result of lots of research and careful PAYING ATTENTION not just only on my part.

Or is it my feelings on sexuality, that biology and various other factors influence that--not what colors a kid is dressed in or what activities parents have him or her do? Am I turning my kid gay by letting him stomp around in high heels? Or do you think it's BS for me not to mind if my son is gay? Do you believe biology doesn't influence it, or that it is the only factor? What? Let's consider ages ago, when fat women were considered to be more attractive because it meant they were rich. That was desirable. Men desired larger women. The exact opposite is true today; men desire skinnier women. That is what is fashionable. There are still men who are just born to love big women. Many people's tastes are totally uninfluenced by fashion and society; however, it is still true that the sexuality of a population, overall, is related to what is seen as fashionable and desirable by the society.

If you disagree, that's fine, but rather than call my opinion and theory BS, why not be respectful, acknowledge it, and then state your own? Which part EXACTLY do you think is BS, my PERSONAL feelings and experiences that are to do with MY child or that which I state is fact and is unrelated to MY son?
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