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The eroticization of children. - Page 7

post #121 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meg Murry. View Post
Redifer, I'm guessing that this is either your daughter or someone you're close to. With all due respect, I refuse to engage in what very likely could be taken as a personal attack on someone you love or care about.

No, that is me. I am an adult, and I fully aware what can be said about my manner of dress. I've heard it all before. But my point is; just BECAUSE culturally, clothing may give someone a certain impression of me, does that mean it is correct not only to continue the practice of instantly judging someone's attire, and then teaching our daughters to do so?

I have never, EVER, judged someone based on the clothes they were wearing. I've been friends with so many random people; homeless men in rags, super-pretty rich girls, gothic men, etc. My parents brought me up that though your brain may immediately conclude something about someone, more than likely that assumption is far from correct.
post #122 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meg Murry. View Post
I'm sorry, but best friend or no, I'd have to put my foot down and weather the storm that followed, explaining that this party was not appropriate for our family. I'm so sorry she has to deal with this. Cheetah girls? I assume those are strippers?

The Cheetah girls are Disney Channel creations. They are an inter-racial group of girls who want to be singers/dancers. They are teen agers but boys do not really figure into their story much. It is more about having to work together as a group.
post #123 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meg Murry. View Post
WHAT is the possible advantage of dressing one's daughter that way? Really, would someone bother to answer this for me? Is it...
Dressing one's daughter that way? My mom didn't dress me when I was 13. I had an outfit she liked...button-up plaid shirt, and jeans. Sometimes, I wore cutoffs. I never let mom see it when I wore stockings under the cutoffs, and tied the shirt up under my breasts, with all but one button undone (a la Daisy Duke)...and my pumps. I'm sure people thought I looked "like a whore", but I wasn't really aware of that at the time. I wasn't trying to look as though I was sexually active. I thought I looked good, and I did like catching the eyes of the boys. I really didn't grasp the underlying concepts about looking like I was putting out.

My mom didn't dress me that way. My mom didn't even know that I dressed that way. I didn't feel that it was any of her business.

On the other hand, I knew a girl whose parents tried to control what she wore. She spent her English classes writing pornographic poems, told the rest of us dirty stories, and used to cut class to spend an hour or two with her boyfriend in his van. I don't think she looked like a whore at all...despite the clothes she stashed in her locker. But, she was certainly chasing sex.

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b. A desire to profit from one's daughter's later career as a whore?
This is vile. I dressed like a "slut" through most of my teens. I did become sexually active (barely) at 15, and got involved in a monogamous relationship at 16. I broke that off after almost nine years of marriage...at almost 32. I then met dh, and we've been monogamous ever since. I don't really care what any other woman does with herself on a sexual level...but I also don't make assumptions about what they're doing, based on their clothes. I had many friends who were far more sexually active than I was, and none of them dressed as much "like a whore" as I did...not even the two who were teenage prostitutes.

Parents have many different reasons for what they do and don't allow. Suggesting that a mom who allows her child to dress in a sexual fashion is doing so with the intent to one day pimp out her offspring is disgusting.
post #124 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redifer View Post
Here we go, let's play a game, in regards to this clothing = sexual activity.
Meg, I'd like you to look at this picture, and tell me whether this girl is dressed like a whore.
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...geID=831046554

What about this one, is this "dressed like a whore"?
http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...00653_2123.jpg

I'd honestly like to know your opinion on this. Would you guess this girl is sexually active, or has a history of promiscuity? What do you think her personality is like? Number of lovers she's had? Age of loss of virginity? Average length of relationship?

I would have no idea about any of these things from the pictures. It wouldn't even occur to me to think about those things.

She looks like a young adult who is dressed to go dancing. If this is girl is a minor, I would say that she is )as much by the make up (in the second picture) as the dress) giving the impression that she is older than she is.

oh just saw that this is you. I have no idea if this is you as an adult or not.
post #125 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meg Murry. View Post
I think it encourages girls who are essentially children to see themselves (and have others see them) as sexual objects. In what way is this healthy, much less moral?
This is also slightly off. Maybe a 13-year-oldl is 'essentially' a child, but you can't put their sexuality in a box. I was a C-cup on one side, and a DD on the other, and had my period, and was growing hair...and had a huge sex drive...when I turned 13. Other people slotting me into the 'child' box didn't help me find my way through the struggles of puberty, exploding sex drive, etc. Yes - I mostly had the coping skills of a child...but I had the drives of an adult. I wasn't dressing the way I did because I was being exploited. I dressed the way I did as part of my struggle to cope with my sexuality.

It's sad that anyone would try to predict a pubescent girl's future career, based solely on how she copes with those awkward first years of figuring out her sexual identity and learning to cope with all those feelings.

I never wanted to be, or to appear, promiscuous. I certainly never wanted to be a whore. I wanted to be a marine biologist, then a pilot, the a librarian, then a computer programmer - then a SAHM. I also wanted all those overwhelming urges to just go away until I felt like I could handle them. They didn't, and I did my fumbling best to cope.
post #126 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
Dressing one's daughter that way? My mom didn't dress me when I was 13.
This. I dressed myself. I still do. My parents just let me run with it. I never went too overboard, but I did dress a bit more.. wildly.. than my other counterparts.



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I had many friends who were far more sexually active than I was, and none of them dressed as much "like a whore" as I did...
This too. The majority of the girls who were "known" in school and afterwards for being "loose" were very conservatively dressed.

In regards to the photos of myself I posted earlier, this is the reason behind the logic: I do not always dress that way. Mostly I wear jeans and men's undershirts. However, occasionally I do get a hair up my butt to wear "provocative" clothing.

In my life, I have been in two relationships, both lasting longer than 5 years. I have only had two sexual partners. I have never been, nor ever wanted to be, promiscuous. I simply dress according to how I feel that day. In those photos, I felt rockin. I felt strong, and feminine, and incredibly amazing. I see no problem with expressing that through my clothing. The next day, I could be in sweatpants, or wideleg jeans with a spiked collar around my neck. I dress reflecting my mood.

In general, no, I don't really like seeing young girls in certain fashions. But at the same time, I have never once looked at a girl/woman who was dressed in a "sexy" manner and deemed her a slut. I think it's rather presumptuous to believe you can gather all of that personal history and information from something as basic as the way a piece of cloth is gathered and draped on one's body.

I don't believe in teaching my children that judging others based on clothing is appropriate, either. And I really don't appreciate other people's morals regarding fashion and clothing being crammed down my throat. Someone else may think it's slutty or whorish to dress a certain way, and I could give two flying frogs. Just don't presume that I may want to live my life by the same standards or try to impose those ideas onto my children.
post #127 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by maya44 View Post
I would have no idea about any of these things from the pictures. It wouldn't even occur to me to think about those things.

She looks like a young adult who is dressed to go dancing. If this is girl is a minor, I would say that she is )as much by the make up (in the second picture) as the dress) giving the impression that she is older than she is.

oh just saw that this is you. I have no idea if this is you as an adult or not.
Those pictures are of me, taken this summer. I am 22, not a minor. Although when I don't have my face plastered with makeup to go out somewhere special (which is where I was headed, good assumption!), as I never usually wear makeup, I still get carded to buy a lighter!
post #128 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redifer View Post
No, that is me. I am an adult, and I fully aware what can be said about my manner of dress. I've heard it all before. But my point is; just BECAUSE culturally, clothing may give someone a certain impression of me, does that mean it is correct not only to continue the practice of instantly judging someone's attire, and then teaching our daughters to do so?
Whew...glad it wasn't your little girl. I looked back later and saw that you were the mom of a 2.5 yo, and unless it had been a looooooong time since you'd updated your siggy, I realized it probably was not her.

The fact is, Red, no matter what I answer to your question, the cultural reality is going to remain the same: people still do and always will instantly judge someone's attire. If I were to walk up to you wearing a Ku Klux Klan hood and a t-shirt that said, "I hate ******s," I have a feeling that your judgment might not be as entirely reserved as you're claiming, am I right? Speaking at least for myself, I'd conclude that either that person was a racist or intended others to perceive him/her as such. Whether or not you do this or agree with it; whether it's right, wrong, or in between, we (the collective, societal "we") realize that clothing means something. That's why we (collective, societal "we") find it offensive when the Taliban erases all difference between and among women by forcing them all to wear lookalike burkas; that's why students rebel against the idea of wearing school uniforms; that's why we don't all wear a People's Republic-style equalizing costume/uniform that erases all social difference; that's why we buy designer clothes with the brand names highly visible...and so on and so on. Hey, I don't need to go into more detail about that, do I? We both live here in this society and know what goes on in it.

In any case, you're an adult. You are aware of the cultural judgments, favorable, negative, and neutral, that have been or could be applied to the way you dress, and that's totally your choice: you're doing it with full knowledge of the consequences. Cool.

However, for a child who's young, by which I mean "below 18," just for laughs n' fun, I don't think that they really do understand the full implication of wearing a shirt that says "I love Daddy's credit cards," or "Spoil me," or "I want boyz with bling," or whatever. I don't think they understand the full implication of dressing like Bratz or dancing like Xtina Aguilera used to in her "dirrty" phase. That's part of what I think is so problematic about, to quote the thread, the eroticization of children.
post #129 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by maya44 View Post
The Cheetah girls are Disney Channel creations. They are an inter-racial group of girls who want to be singers/dancers. They are teen agers but boys do not really figure into their story much. It is more about having to work together as a group.
Thanks for the clarification -- we have a strip club named Cheetah's in my city and for all I knew, it was a chain, like Chippendale's.
post #130 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meg Murry. View Post
Whew...glad it wasn't your little girl. I looked back later and saw that you were the mom of a 2.5 yo, and unless it had been a looooooong time since you'd updated your siggy, I realized it probably was not her.
LOL nope, definitely not her. I'm still having a hard time to get her to wear any clothes at all, matter of fact! Little stink...

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The fact is, Red, no matter what I answer to your question, the cultural reality is going to remain the same: people still do and always will instantly judge someone's attire.
I can understand this, but my major question is, does that make it correct? Should we, as parents, be working harder on fashion choices for little girls instead of overhauling society's tendency toward instant judgement?

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If I were to walk up to you wearing a Ku Klux Klan hood and a t-shirt that said, "I hate ******s," I have a feeling that your judgment might not be as entirely reserved as you're claiming, am I right? Speaking at least for myself, I'd conclude that either that person was a racist or intended others to perceive him/her as such.
Actually, I'd probably first assume that you were playing a major prank on me, but that's just me. I could probably gather from that attire that you may be a racist, but in my head, the outcome differs from most. Racist as the outfit may predelict, would that make me not want to talk to you? No. Would that make me talk trash about you to my DH or whomever I was with? No. Would that give me any right to instantaneously think I know your entire personal history? No. All I would gather is that you were making a definite statement that day.



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In any case, you're an adult. You are aware of the cultural judgments, favorable, negative, and neutral, that have been or could be applied to the way you dress, and that's totally your choice: you're doing it with full knowledge of the consequences. Cool.
True. I fully accept that my clothing choices ranging from day to day are not exactly "kosher" with cultural boundaries. And to be honest, sometimes I dress that way just to tick people off or make them do a double-take. I don't want the attention from men, I like seeing responses from women, actually. I like to see how they react, if they'll talk to me in a checkout lane, if they gossip about me with their company. I can tell you, most everything I ever wear or do in public is almost always because I'm trying to make a statement, or trying to "challenge status quo". Born rebel, I guess

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However, for a child who's young, by which I mean "below 18," just for laughs n' fun, I don't think that they really do understand the full implication of wearing a shirt that says "I love Daddy's credit cards," or "Spoil me," or "I want boyz with bling," or whatever. I don't think they understand the full implication of dressing like Bratz or dancing like Xtina Aguilera used to in her "dirrty" phase. That's part of what I think is so problematic about, to quote the thread, the eroticization of children.
I think we all agreed, though, that next to none of us agree with those types of slogans on t-shirts. I may enjoy dressing like a tramp somedays, but seeing pants in a size 2T at target with "JailBait" written across the rear make me want to gag. My kiddo may wear skirts or tank tops, but there is a "no writing" clause in my household (I don't do words, period, on any clothes, mine, hers or DH. I'm not a billboard for a corporation, nor do I want my breasts, crotch or rearend to speak).

I honestly don't dig Bratz. Not because of the way the look, but more because of the message they send. They're preoccupied with clothes, boys, and shiny things. Materialistic. There's nothing wrong with LIKING those things, but I don't want the influence on my daughter that those are the ONLY things.

And as far as Xtina (haha, honestly, I hate her music, but I really like her.), no, I don't want my kiddo pole-dancing for a talent show when she's 8. But if she wants to get down and boogie in our house to some "skanky" music, by all means, go for it. I do it (when no one's watching!). I think the biggest thing is to teach our girls when dancing like that may be appropriate: talent show (no) vs. in your bedroom (ok). And to teach them the meaning behind dances like that, the history of the pole dance, etc. The problem is, most parents have a big issue with these things, but don't approach it in the right manner, I think.
post #131 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redifer View Post
LOL nope, definitely not her. I'm still having a hard time to get her to wear any clothes at all, matter of fact! Little stink...
Ha! My dd is sitting on my lap right now wearing nothing but undies. I see they have the same fashion sense.

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I can understand this, but my major question is, does that make it correct? Should we, as parents, be working harder on fashion choices for little girls instead of overhauling society's tendency toward instant judgement?
I think instant judgment is pretty much unavoidable as a human tendency -- heck, as an animal tendency -- but I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of being willing to revise judgment based on new information, not disregard it or shape it to fit a pre-existing concept. The other issue here -- and I'm really sorry to sound like a broken record here -- is that clothing means something. I think that's honestly why it's a losing (or even a lost) cause to overhaul society's tendency toward instant judgment based on clothing: clothing is one of the first and strongest messages we send out to other people defining who we are.
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Actually, I'd probably first assume that you were playing a major prank on me, but that's just me. I could probably gather from that attire that you may be a racist, but in my head, the outcome differs from most. Racist as the outfit may predelict, would that make me not want to talk to you? No. Would that make me talk trash about you to my DH or whomever I was with? No. Would that give me any right to instantaneously think I know your entire personal history? No. All I would gather is that you were making a definite statement that day.
I wouldn't think I knew someone's entire history either (heck, I'm lucky if I can claim to know my own entire history...and definitely can't do that before my AM coffee...), but I would think (and I believe most folks would think the same) that either I was a racist or I wanted others to think I was. And the fact that I was making a "definite statement that day" seems to imply that somehow I'd feel radically different tomorrow, right? The thing is, at least in my experience, the racist you meet on Monday is most likely going to be racist on Tuesday too. Hopefully not, sure, but most probably yeah.

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True. I fully accept that my clothing choices ranging from day to day are not exactly "kosher" with cultural boundaries. And to be honest, sometimes I dress that way just to tick people off or make them do a double-take. I don't want the attention from men, I like seeing responses from women, actually. I like to see how they react, if they'll talk to me in a checkout lane, if they gossip about me with their company. I can tell you, most everything I ever wear or do in public is almost always because I'm trying to make a statement, or trying to "challenge status quo". Born rebel, I guess
Okay, I really swear I'm not saying this to be a jackass, but you know you're basically admitting that your clothing sends a message (e.g., "I dress that way jut to tick people off...to see how [women] react...to make a statement") and that the message you're sending with your clothing that rebels against the unwritten rules of society does, at least in some way, accurately reflect the kind of personality you have, e.g. "I'm trying to make a statement, or trying to 'challenge status quo'...")? I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk in pointing this out.

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I think we all agreed, though, that next to none of us agree with those types of slogans on t-shirts. I may enjoy dressing like a tramp somedays, but seeing pants in a size 2T at target with "JailBait" written across the rear make me want to gag. My kiddo may wear skirts or tank tops, but there is a "no writing" clause in my household (I don't do words, period, on any clothes, mine, hers or DH. I'm not a billboard for a corporation, nor do I want my breasts, crotch or rearend to speak).
A huge "Yeah, that!" to the above.

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I honestly don't dig Bratz. Not because of the way the look, but more because of the message they send. They're preoccupied with clothes, boys, and shiny things. Materialistic. There's nothing wrong with LIKING those things, but I don't want the influence on my daughter that those are the ONLY things.
Man, am I gonna get the jerk award for this too...You said you don't dig Bratz "because of the message they send" about being "preoccupied with clothes, boys, and shiny things." Isn't a big part of the message they send communicated through the clothing and makeup they wear? By the way, though, I agree I don't want that kind of influence on my daughter: I want her to see herself as being defined by her intelligence, her good deeds, the actions she takes, not by how she looks or dresses.

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And as far as Xtina (haha, honestly, I hate her music, but I really like her.), no, I don't want my kiddo pole-dancing for a talent show when she's 8. But if she wants to get down and boogie in our house to some "skanky" music, by all means, go for it. I do it (when no one's watching!). I think the biggest thing is to teach our girls when dancing like that may be appropriate: talent show (no) vs. in your bedroom (ok). And to teach them the meaning behind dances like that, the history of the pole dance, etc. The problem is, most parents have a big issue with these things, but don't approach it in the right manner, I think.
Well, and the thing is, I don't think many parents do take their kids aside and explain why it's okay to get down and boogie in one's house but not in a talent show. Is it because it's hard to articulate how come it's not okay? If so, I do sympathize -- right now, my dd's okay with the explanation that short skirts are not okay because they tend to show one's undies, and undies are supposed to be private property, but dancing is a whole 'nother issue.

Arrgh. :
post #132 of 155
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Originally Posted by Meg Murry. View Post
What happened to the word "no"? What happened to the concept that the parent doesn't have to buy something (or, in your example, a great many somethings) she theoretically doesn't agree with? What is the motivation here for buying these things if she doesn't find them appropriate? I just don't understand.
Well, some parents feel that the child's wants and opinions are valid and to be respected. How each family approaches that will likely be different.
post #133 of 155
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Originally Posted by majazama View Post
heres the little promo for the "baby brats" dolls...

Before the Bratz™ were everybody’s favorite fashion friends, they were the Baby Girls with a Passion for Fashion™! And these Babyz™ demand to be lookin’ good on the street, at the beach, or chillin’ in the crib! Check out these funkalish fashions and you’ll agree, far-out fashion sense is born in new Bratz Babyz™!

See this description doesn't seem inappropriate to me at all. We all know that babies don't really care what they are wearing. It's just silliness and fun IMO.
post #134 of 155
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Originally Posted by Redifer View Post
Here we go, let's play a game, in regards to this clothing = sexual activity.
Meg, I'd like you to look at this picture, and tell me whether this girl is dressed like a whore.
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...geID=831046554

What about this one, is this "dressed like a whore"?
http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...00653_2123.jpg

I'd honestly like to know your opinion on this. Would you guess this girl is sexually active, or has a history of promiscuity? What do you think her personality is like? Number of lovers she's had? Age of loss of virginity? Average length of relationship?
I know you asked Meg, but I would vote no - these outfits are not whorish at all - or even really suggestive. I would however vote yes if the outfit involved a girl with a white see-through skirt and no underwear or thongs that showed her bottom. Or pants that show the thong string. THAT is out of control - even for adults. I have a girlfriend who had on something like that once and of course all the guys were talking about it. She thought it was cute.
post #135 of 155

sorry should have added links...

these are the worst of them, IMO... http://www.mgae.com/awards/images/_a...baby_bratz.jpg ... look at how the "bratz babys" hips are all jutting forward... makeup on their faces.. they are wearing boy-style *underwear* for gosh sakes!! not even a diaper, and these are supposed to be "babies"? They also carry their bottle *on a chain* (look on the bratz website to see that)

at the bratz website, while the page is loading, it says "Please wait, it takes time to look this good".... : http://www.bratz.com/

I think that toys like this that a girl play with really effects how she looks at her body and others. the bratz are skinnier than barbies, even, as if that was possible. and their clothes.....

I don't think the people marketing this $hit care at all about anything. they only want to make more $$. They are appealing to this society that has seemingly less and less morals. they are just treading a fine line, and I think they are pushing it.

I hope my daughters never catch onto this craze, but we have many years before that. I filter all their toys already, I don't see why I shouldn't when they start wanting that sort of crap. there are more biologically correct and natural woman-version toys out there. I will not let them have that sort of thing, just because they want it.

***
On topic... I've recently seen many little pants and shorts for toddlers with things written across the bums, and I think that is wrong, no matter what it says. why would you want to attract attention to your kids butt?
post #136 of 155

I find this true also!

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Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom View Post
Actually, I've found our thrift store is the best place to get decent clothing--you just have to find a good one and visit regularly.
If I take my nearly 8 yr old into the department store, it's just torture how much of the girls department I have to steer her away from. So much of it is not only hoochie stuff, but ridiculously expensive. Between Bratz everything and Disney everything, it's hard to retain any sense that clothes are just clothes and not billboards. I used to sew all of my own things in high school. I wore nothing that anyone else did. But I did it cause then it was cheaper! I do use it as fodder for discussion, as in, "These pants cost more than the pants I buy for myself. No way." Is that discussion? Perhaps not so much. Haha.

I keep her mostly in gently used stuff, and have developed a keen eye for natural fabrics and "her style." She knows what she likes! I won't let her hooch up the wardrobe, but she HAS tried to get me to let her. She's done dance classes for years, and for the last two, her teacher was a college cheerleader and dance major, and the routines were--too much, really. I didn't like it. I didn't like the teacher referring to the rears as "booties," as in "stick your booties out." But class is not where she learned Beyonce's butt dance. That came from kids at school... and it's not going away. I've tried to talk her out of doing it, but she's a dancer, and she's going to dance the contemporary stuff. Gyrations probably came from dance class, the isolations, the ahh, all that stuff. But she's still just a little innocent girl, sugar and spice, and did you all know that "spice" mean "smart mouth?"

VF
post #137 of 155
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Originally Posted by Meg Murry. View Post
Okay, maybe I'm speaking from ignorance because my daughter is only 6, not 8, but it seems to me that you're right and the other mother is wrong. What happened to the word "no"? What happened to the concept that the parent doesn't have to buy something (or, in your example, a great many somethings) she theoretically doesn't agree with? What is the motivation here for buying these things if she doesn't find them appropriate? I just don't understand.

In my friends case, I believe she did not say no because then her dd would be different. I do not believe she wanted to have the conversation with her dd about why the Bratz were not appropriate (because everyone else had them so how bad could they be) and it was easier to just give in to her dd's wants. However, I do not know for sure if this was her motivation becasue when I tried to discuss it I was told that "I will see when my dd is older."

Unfortunately, a lot of people have this attitude. My MIL used to give us a lot of flak because we would not get ds a gameboy until he was 8 (all of his friends had one by the age of 5). When he turned 8 I told MIL she could get it for him. Her response to me: Oh, you're finally going to let him be like everyone else. That's good. It's important to a kid that they have what everyone else has. This is also the same women who bought my 4 year old dd an outfit that had Perfect 10 written across the rear. My dd loved that outfit because it was pink. I could not wait for it to disappear. I kept in the house as soemthing she could put on when we were not going anywhere.
post #138 of 155
Thread Starter 
It's interesting how this thread has gone in the direction of clothing choices and has totally avoided the issue of actual behavior choices.

We jut got cable (we didn't have it for a long time but have committed to it for one year for our children to learn the local language. Really, that's the reason. ) So anyway, the children's channel has no commercials at all but it does have constant PSA's about crossing the street safely and the like, and the PSA's are all done in a rock video style with rapping and singing kids, and yeah, the kids are all totally child-like. Baggy jeans and sweaters and totally not relevant to this thread. But the one adult who is with them singing, the grown-up whose hands the kids hold when they cross the street, is just totally out there. Maybe she's playing to the kids' parents or something, but she's the one in the miniskirts, pouting at the camera, etc., etc. ... until, of course, she has to look all perky and polite and hold the kids' hands when they cross the street.



So anyway, point being, the kids absorb this. This, to them, is what it looks like to be grown up. As is Brittany and all the others of her ilk. This, to them, is what they aspire to behave like.



Am totally not getting the point across well, but the most modestly-dressed covered-up young lady can still act in ways that would just be entirely sexually inappropriate. IYKWIM.






Until two years ago we lived directly across the street from Lincoln Center in NYC, and they would have different shows out on the plaza (you know, the one with the fountain where Bill Murray twirls around at the beginning of "Ghostbusters" ... well anyway), and I will never forget once some grade school had their kids on stage, and these girls were just right out of "Solid Gold" or some such nonsense (show from the '80s where semi-naked women writhed on the floor to pop music ) ... I mean, these were little kids wearing glittering green and gold bikini-type things.

My DS#1 wanted to know why they were dancing in their bathing suits.

And the "moves" they were making were just so inappropriate, so out-there and ... just what were those parents thinking.





Anyway, my point is also that there's a level of interaction that is just an outside limit, IMO, for childlike behavior, before it crosses the line into sexually inappropriate. And a lot of people (on this board, too) will passionately defend the right of young folks to sexually explore ... after all, we all explored when we were young, right? ... but the question is, when this behavior starts happening at 8, 9, 10 years old ... is that behavior normal sexual behavior or is it kind of like global warming ... something that was happening anyway, but what is happening all around those ice caps is just accelerating the process?




Does that make any sense to anyone but me?







Okay, just rambling. Hadn't checked in on this thread in a day or so, was surprised it got so long ...
post #139 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by merpk View Post
It's interesting how this thread has gone in the direction of clothing choices and has totally avoided the issue of actual behavior choices.

So anyway, point being, the kids absorb this. This, to them, is what it looks like to be grown up. As is Brittany and all the others of her ilk. This, to them, is what they aspire to behave like.

Am totally not getting the point across well, but the most modestly-dressed covered-up young lady can still act in ways that would just be entirely sexually inappropriate. IYKWIM.

Anyway, my point is also that there's a level of interaction that is just an outside limit, IMO, for childlike behavior, before it crosses the line into sexually inappropriate. And a lot of people (on this board, too) will passionately defend the right of young folks to sexually explore ... after all, we all explored when we were young, right? ... but the question is, when this behavior starts happening at 8, 9, 10 years old ... is that behavior normal sexual behavior or is it kind of like global warming ... something that was happening anyway, but what is happening all around those ice caps is just accelerating the process?
It makes sense to me. It's more than just how you dress. It's everything that goes along with it. It's perfectly possible to wear a skirt up to here and a low cut blouse and still not come off as a hoochie mama and vice versa.

Bratz, Barbie, etc. are all about teaching young girls to shop and care about their physical appearance. The physical appearance they're touting of course is an unreachable ideal and it does reak of promiscuity. This is the way you need to dress to be popular and everyone wants to be popular, right? And then throw in the rest of pop culture and voila, society is still propigating the myth that women must be good looking to be popular and successful and it has everything to do with sexuality and very little to with well just being a human being. And boys are trained through popular culture to look at women that way. Boys are trained to just be macho and look upon women as objects. Virgin/whore complex still exists, etc., etc. Frankly it seems like it's gotten worse since I was in college. Now you have CEOs and Hos parties. And guess which is which? The really sad thing is that this is all really only in the pursuit of selling junk. That's it. It's easier to train a younger child to buy into this crap than an older one now. So that's who they're marketing to.

It doesn't mean that our girls should dress in nuns habits b/c then it's buying into this whole thing in another way. We need to be teaching both boys and girls to respect themselves, how to detect crap when it's being marketed to them and that it's not the be all end all to have a boyfriend and girls just aren't objects.

I guess I did need to rant a little.
post #140 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by kewb View Post
In my friends case, I believe she did not say no because then her dd would be different. I do not believe she wanted to have the conversation with her dd about why the Bratz were not appropriate (because everyone else had them so how bad could they be) and it was easier to just give in to her dd's wants. However, I do not know for sure if this was her motivation becasue when I tried to discuss it I was told that "I will see when my dd is older."
I realize not everyone can or should homeschool, but man, this is one central reason why we're homeschooling. For so many reasons, I do want my dd "to be different," but I also realize how damned difficult it is to be in the crowd swimming against the current. The only solution I was able to come up with is just never to jump into the current in the first place.
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