DTAP Pertussis less scary

[Aquafina]

Ok the more I read the more I get confused on some stuff,I know that dtap vax isnt 100% effective but what I have read says that even if the dtap dosent protect you 100% that if you get whooping cough it wont be as bad as if you were unvaxed: ????

[mammom]

My understanding of vaccines is that they are meant to PREVENT illness, not make it easier to handle if you do come down with a particular illness.

I could be wrong, of course. But I think this new "understanding" of vaccines as a way to make illnesses easier to handle is just a response to finally, truly admitting that they don't work most of the time.

[Drummer's Wife]

yeah I don't get that thought, I've heard it about other diseases as well and it doesn't make much sense. If the vax worked, your body would truly build up immunity and there'd be no chance of catching actual WC. If you caught a slightly less serious version I don't think it would be because the vax provided some immunity. Other factors would come into play but the truth would be that the vaccine simply didn't do it's job and if you had never had the vax you likely would have the same reaction after exposure. My thinking anyway.

[Plummeting]

It can be true, sometimes, for some people, with the pertussis vaccine. The reason is that the vaccine is not only supposed to prompt the body to produce antibodies to the bacteria, but also to the toxins the bacteria create once inside your body. The antibodies to the bacteria don't work well at all. In fact, in some people, the person becomes MORE susceptible to infection after being vaccinated. However, the reason the pertussis cough can become so severe and last so long is because the bacteria create toxins that destroy the cilia in the lungs. Antibodies to the toxins can neutralize the toxins before they can do so much damage to the cilia. So, since the vaccine also causes the body to produce antibodies to the toxin, it can result in less serious illness if you should become infected. But breastfeeding mothers provide those antibodies to their babies when they nurse and vitamin C can help neutralize the toxins if given in large enough doses, so I really, really can't understand taking the risk of the vaccine at all.

[mykdsmomy]

When ds2 was a newborn, his dr. would always tell me that getting his shots will make him more healthy! His take on vaccines (from what I understood) is that they magically protect kids from not just vpd but from many other diseases as well : . I hated taking him in for shots....and looking back, this dr. wound up giving ds the pneumonia vax WHILE he had bronchiolitis : (he was our foster son at the time...i had no choice in vax's at that time )

[Peony]

Originally Posted by Plummeting

It can be true, sometimes, for some people, with the pertussis vaccine. The reason is that the vaccine is not only supposed to prompt the body to produce antibodies to the bacteria, but also to the toxins the bacteria create once inside your body. The antibodies to the bacteria don't work well at all. In fact, in some people, the person becomes MORE susceptible to infection after being vaccinated. However, the reason the pertussis cough can become so severe and last so long is because the bacteria create toxins that destroy the cilia in the lungs. Antibodies to the toxins can neutralize the toxins before they can do so much damage to the cilia. So, since the vaccine also causes the body to produce antibodies to the toxin, it can result in less serious illness if you should become infected. But breastfeeding mothers provide those antibodies to their babies when they nurse and vitamin C can help neutralize the toxins if given in large enough doses, so I really, really can't understand taking the risk of the vaccine at all.

Hi Aquafina!

[Drummer's Wife]

thanks plummeting for the info, THAT makes sense. One of the reason's I was comfy with skipping DTaP was because of breastfeeding but it's good to know this

[Gitti]

Originally Posted by Plummeting

....the vaccine also causes the body to produce antibodies to the toxin...

Is that really possible?

Antibodies to cigarette smoke, car fumes, heavy metal like mercury, pesticides, herbicides............?

Why only to b.pertussis?

[Spy]

Originally Posted by Aquafina

Ok the more I read the more I get confused on some stuff,I know that dtap vax isnt 100% effective but what I have read says that even if the dtap dosent protect you 100% that if you get whooping cough it wont be as bad as if you were unvaxed: ????

Same thing was told about DTwP. Yes, it is reactive, yes, children die, yes, neurologically damaging, but if you are lucky to skip all of the above, at least you will not get pertussis as hard as unvaccinated : . Thing is, how in the world do you prove that ? Pertussis is not such a rare disease that it would be impossible to watch and see what really happens. Vaccinated kids do get severe cases of pertussis, sometimes complicated. Unvaccinated kids do get it exactly the same way, not any more severe or complicated. I can think of anecdotal cases when a child would receive a vaccine, react badly and then get a severe complicated pertussis. On the other hand, I know quite a few unvaccinated children (mine included) who were the only ones in school outbreaks who wouldn't get sick or were the mildest case. IME, the mildness of disease is not correlated with the vaccination status. Not in a positive way, anyway :

[tanyalynn]

But breastfeeding mothers provide those antibodies to their babies when they nurse

If they still have antibodies, yes. But before counting on that, mom should either be sure she's had pertussis relatively recently or have a blood test to show the antibodies. Knowing that I don't have antibodies to it has made me a bit less lazy about getting together my pertussis information, since the baby's not getting any help from me, and in fact I'll likely be getting sick along with the kids whenever it comes to visit our household. And as an aside, this is a great place to get helpful info, so thank you everyone!

[Plummeting]

Originally Posted by TanyaLopez

If they still have antibodies, yes. But before counting on that, mom should either be sure she's had pertussis relatively recently or have a blood test to show the antibodies. Knowing that I don't have antibodies to it has made me a bit less lazy about getting together my pertussis information, since the baby's not getting any help from me, and in fact I'll likely be getting sick along with the kids whenever it comes to visit our household. And as an aside, this is a great place to get helpful info, so thank you everyone!

Well, of course, but most people do still have antibodies, since we get reinfected very, very, very frequently. Somewhere between once every two to five years. Personally, I don't think a mother needs to run out and get tested for pertussis antibodies before she decides what to do, because all parents should know how to treat pertussis, regardless of whether or not they vaccinate and whether or not they have measurable antibody levels. No one should ever count on anything to protect their babies/children 100%. I had pertussis antibodies and my baby still got pertussis. I know I had antibodies because I didn't get it and I know when I'd had it.

Aside from all that, though, breastfeeding still has a protective effect, even if you don't have antibodies. Breastfeeding is full of all sorts of immune factors - antibodies aren't the only thing that matter. So it still gives a baby a strong advantage, even when you don't have any measurable antibodies.

[tanyalynn]

I didn't mean to imply that the decision to vaccinate should hinge, or even be affected, by maternal antibody status. And yes, all parents, regardless of whether they vaccinate, should be familiar with the diseases that typically go around, but realistically, I know I've had to prioritize my learning, and since my doc wanted some of my blood anyway, I asked for titers for a few things and found I didn't have any pertussis antibodies left. So that went a bit higher on the list.

I remember a study someone referenced a while back about reinfection with pertussis, do you have the link? Did it say that most people have antibodies--I have to admit, I skimmed and didn't retain much of that thread. I have to wonder how it's missed me for who knows how long (or I got it but don't remember/didn't notice and didn't make decent quantities of antibodies), but that can't really be answered.

And Plummeting, Happy New Year!

[Plummeting]

I didn't think you were saying that. I was just replying in a rush because it was my turn to play Need for Speed.

Search mamakay's pertussis posts. One of the studies she links talks about how frequently we're reinfected, and the way they determine that is by measuring antibodies. They basically checked titers every so often over a period of a few years and found that antibody levels spiked every X number of years (it was 2 to 5, IIRC) in pretty much everyone. The only thing that would cause that is exposure. But the end result was that levels remained high enough to prevent illness most of the time, which means that most of the time, adults have sufficient antibodies to prevent disease. You might be at a low point, but it's highly, highly unlikely that you've never had pertussis.

Happy New Year to you, too! Thanks!

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by Gitti

Is that really possible?

Antibodies to cigarette smoke, car fumes, heavy metal like mercury, pesticides, herbicides............?

Why only to b.pertussis?

Did you read the natural immunity to tetanus thread Gitti?

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=582877

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by TanyaLopez

If they still have antibodies, yes. But before counting on that, mom should either be sure she's had pertussis relatively recently or have a blood test to show the antibodies. Knowing that I don't have antibodies to it has made me a bit less lazy about getting together my pertussis information, since the baby's not getting any help from me, and in fact I'll likely be getting sick along with the kids whenever it comes to visit our household. And as an aside, this is a great place to get helpful info, so thank you everyone!

Which blood test did you have done Tanya?

[wonderwahine]

Originally Posted by Aquafina

Ok the more I read the more I get confused on some stuff,I know that dtap vax isnt 100% effective but what I have read says that even if the dtap dosent protect you 100% that if you get whooping cough it wont be as bad as if you were unvaxed: ????

oh yeah, thats one of their great myths they make us want to believe