It's 2007, November '05 Mamas!!! - Page 8

[spiritmomma]

*Amy*: so sorry about the lack of sleep. My only suggestions: If you are stil co-sleeping, try putting some space between you. Can she sleep in a separate space in the same room? Perhaps a mattress on the floor or a makeshift bedroll? I had visions of Isa and I co-sleeping for a very LONG time, but when I gave up (out of a desperation similar to yours...) and put her on a mattress on the floor, I slept more, she slept more. And isn't that the whole reason we co-sleep, for more peaceful, restful sleep?
I've also heard from many mamas that once they moved their little one a little further away from them at night, they stopped waking so much. Sometimes kiddos will wake (or half-wake) to nurse simply because mom's so close.
My aim here isn't to bash co-sleeping, so please don't flame me!
I simply want to add another idea to your life that may (or may not) help. When you are SO desperate for sleep that you get resentful or angry (which was happening to me A LOT towards the end of our co-sleeping) you can't really parent with patience and Love. So give yourself permission to try it and just see how it goes. If it doesn't work, at least you'll know that co-sleeping wasn' the issue and you can move on to trying other solutions.

s to you mama!

[*Amy*]

No, I'm totally not going to flame you Jaymi! We are going to be trying that post haste. She's going into the pack and play in our room (we don't have a crib) and I think she's just going to have to deal with it. You are so right about parenting with patience and not feeling resentment. It's been getting bad lately, as far as how pissed off I get when she is using me as a pacifier. It just can't go on. How did you all make the transition? Was it hard? You can PM me so that we don't hijack the thread. I just need A LOT of support right now because I hate that we have come to this, and I know the next week or so is going to be hard.

Spughy, totally! I wish I could figure out the connection.

I don't know what we are going to do for tonight though. DH leaves tomorrow morning at 6:30am for a week in Dallas, so he may just sleep in the other room. Tomorrow night, the new regime begins.

[Queen of Cups]

Amy - we transitioned Killy into his own room at about 13 months because I was already 4 months pregnant and he's such a thrasher in his sleep that we knew it wouldn't be safe for him to be in bed with a newborn. Plus, he'd nightweaned himself for the most part when my milk supply went down with pregnancy, but was still waking several times a night (still does, now!) and I just couldn't handle it with the extreme morning sickness and exhaustion. What helped a lot for us: we got a futon for his room, its a full size so DH or I could lay down with him, and its low to the floor so if he rolled out it was no big deal. Plus, it can fold up into a "couch" during the day if we want more playroom in the nursery. When he wakes, DH goes in and lays down with him. Honestly, DH often falls asleep with him and stays there the rest of the night. I think the easiest way to night wean is to have daddy do night-time duty for awhile. But, if you get a full size bed, that way Daddy doesn't have to loose any sleep! Sitting on the floor next to a little toddler bed, patting baby's back for an hour is very tiring - just laying down and cuddling is much easier!

[DreamsInDigital]

Amy have you tried the No Cry Sleep Solution? I'm mostly thinking about the "Pantley Pull Off" method. I don't think Brynn really needs to night nurse as much now but she's in a habit of it. Maybe nightweaning might help.

[*Amy*]

QoC, that is one idea, but you know Jason travels a LOT, so it might be best for us to work on a solution that doesn't require that he is there to soothe her. DiD, yep, we tried it twice and it helped *not one bit*. The pulling off isn't really the issue; she will detach on her own (for the most part) but she still wakes up SO frequently and thinks she needs the boob in the mouth to settle back down. She gets irate and hysterical if I say no, which is why I think we're just going to have to transition her to her own sleeping space. I'd like to keep her in our room though, if possible.

One thing that is working in our favor is that she is so verbal and she can understand *everything* I say to her. She may not like it, but I know that if I talk to her about it, she will at least understand what I'm saying. I was actually thinking about trying to find a good board book that talks about sleeping in a different bed than Mommy and Daddy. Do y'all know of any? And we're going to get back into the habit of a bedtime routine too. We did it for a couple of months and it didn't make her sleep any better, but I do think it's helpful to start to cue them that it's time for bed.

I really believe that this time next week, we'll be doing better. If not, I'm sending her to live with Spughy and Rowan. Ha ha!

[spughy]

Hey! The last thing I need is another toddler!

(BTW our sleep methods are not great and I wouldn't exactly recommend them. Rowan fell off the couch last night She wasn't hurt, but she certainly wasn't going back to sleep without boobies. But my milk supply has dropped somewhat since she stopped waking up at night and she didn't suck hard enough to get a let-down, so she fell back asleep before she really got any boobie juice, so I put her in the crib figuring she'd wake up at some point and want boobies, and she slept for 1 or 2 hours, woke up again, managed to get the boobie juice going, and then I took her back to DH on the couch and she slept on him for the rest of the night - which made a poor night's sleep for him - woke at 7, nursed, and went back to sleep for who knows how long because I had to leave for work. So that was our night last night. You really want that for Brynn?????)

[Phoenix_Rising]

Originally Posted by BodoGirl

Is anyone still carrying their kid(s)? If so, did you carry on your back with a ring sling? I've not ever seen a maya wrap, but am debating purchasing one so I can put a baby on my back and 'cart' one in the stores. OR, the ERGO keeps getting recommended to me. Someone said the ERGO as a toddler back carrier is great. Any comments?

Ok, well, I've hogged the post for sure! Talk to yall soon!

Christy aka BodoGirl!

ERGO all the way! The ring sling only worked for about 2 months for us; after that he got too heavy - we needed something that would distribute his weight over both shoulders. You can wear the ERGO on your front, back, or hip. It is fabulous!

Originally Posted by spiritmomma

ERGO

I was previously a Moby Wrap user, but for a back carry, it's all about the Ergo. To clarify, you can use a wrap style carrier for a back carry, but it's nearly impossible to do it by yourself. When DH could help me strap Isa to my back, it was really comfy, but it was always a bust when I tried it alone. The Ergo is extremely intuitive, you don't even really need instructions, although I'd read them before you use it anyway.

I was never able to get the moby to work on my back, even with someone else helping me by getting KeaganRae in. The ERGO is so easy!

Originally Posted by *Amy*

Y'all, I am about ready to throw in the towel. I don't know how much more of Brynn's terrible sleep I can physically take. I feel like I've become a human pacifier to her, and the past few nights have been right up there with the worst we've ever had. She's *SO* restless and wakes every 1-2 hours to latch on. Sometimes she actually nurses, but I'd say at least half of the time, she's just holding on until she goes back to sleep.

She is teething right now (two that I know of, but I don't think her molars are coming in yet) but this is just the way she sleeps regardless of whether she's getting teeth. The really frustrating thing is that while we were in Texas, there were two nights when she slept 5-6 hours in a row, so I really thought we were making some progress.

Shit she just woke up again.

HELP. I'm really at the end of my rope,

*Amy*- I am so sorry. We have gone through this for periods of a time, but thankfully when I was feeling like I was getting to the end of my rope he would sleep longer at a time for a few nights Keagan also sleeps more at a time when we are not at home - maybe lack of a routine??? Maybe more stimulation during the day??? I don't know. I hope you figure it out really soon!

[flapjack]

Amy, we gave up on cosleeping a few months ago. First, we got her to bed (in her own bed) in the evenings so I had some time to breathe out deeply, and from the 10pm feed she'd be in with us: then from the feed after that. She'll either nurse to sleep or be put in a sleeping bag, lie on her back and have her tummy patted whilst she goes to sleep: it takes a slow backwards count from 300 most nights to get her properly down. Then the first 45 minute cycle, if she's up, she normally needs feeding, but after that she gets herself back to sleep most of the time. If a slow count of 10 hasn't heard her settle herself, I feed her sitting up in bed, put her back in the cot and then she conks out again. Weird- but this was very much a developmental milestone for her. She couldn't have done it 3 months ago.
Jenn, when did you switch to a toddler bed? Skye is in a cot atm and I'm trying to decide whether- and when- to move her.

[*Amy*]

Helen, is she still in your room, or in her own room? Does she cry when you put her in the cot?

I've been thinking about buying a toddler bed mattress and laying it on the floor next to our bed (our mattress is on the floor already) rather than going the pack 'n play route. I'm really not sure at this point which would be better, or if it would make a difference.

The thing that has always made such a big difference for us is when I stop nursing her in bed and only nurse her in the rocking chair in her room. I did this again last night at bedtime, and she went to sleep very easily within 10 minutes when we actually got into bed. It also helps her settle without nursing throughout the night (though not every time she wakes). So that is definitely going to have to be the routine, no matter how annoying it is to have to get out of bed.

Yesterday I was 100% ready to just let her cry it out, but I really just *don't* think I can do it, as much as I might wish otherwise. I'm not really sure what I am going to do, but I hope to have it figured out by tonight. Any suggestions are welcome (keeping in mind DH is out of town for a week).

[flapjack]

CIO doesn't work if you don't believe in it. You need to have balls of steel and be prepared to walk away and let her scream, and I don't think you can do that: so don't put either of you through that. Otherwise she'll be up at night again in a week. Trust me, I tried it with the boys and it never really, truly worked.
Yep, Skye has her own room. She naps in there, and will fuss (whimper, a shout or two. Not a scream, not attempt to turn over) sometimes when she's put down awake. Most of the time she falls asleep in arms/at booby and we transfer her. If she doesn't start to calm down and think about going to sleep (say, a count of 50?) then we leave it and try again later.
Have you got a blanket for your rocking chair? If you can snuggle up in there whilst you nurse her and don't get so cold, it'll be far more comfortable for you.
I'd say go with the toddler bed rather than the pack and play, because it'll be easier to transfer her when she's asleep. I wouldn't put it on the floor because of drafts- I'd either cut some pallets down to make a tiny futon for her and put some drapes up to make it nice and cosy, or else put her in a toddler bed with a guard rail. The "big girl bed" might be an option for her, given how verbal she is.

[Queen of Cups]

Originally Posted by flapjack

Jenn, when did you switch to a toddler bed? Skye is in a cot atm and I'm trying to decide whether- and when- to move her.

Ellie's still in bed with us, she only wakes to nurse once or twice a night most nights, so it doesn't bother me. Okay, she starts in her crib (in our room), then is moved to our bed the first time she wakes to nurse - usually around 2am.

We switched Killy to a full bed from his crib, we never did a toddler bed. I didn't want a bed that we couldn't lay down with him and that he would outgrow, it seemed like an unneeded expense. A full futon bed will last him years. We switched him to it at about 13 months or so.

[spiritmomma]

Originally Posted by QoC

We switched Killy to a full bed from his crib, we never did a toddler bed. I didn't want a bed that we couldn't lay down with him and that he would outgrow, it seemed like an unneeded expense. A full futon bed will last him years. We switched him to it at about 13 months or so.

Yes, same here. We first transferred her to a crib mattress on the floor (the only thing the crib my mother bought us was ever used for! ) but we had the issue of me not being able to lie down with her and nurse if she woke. We then came into a twin bed from my father's wife when they moved. We only used the mattress on the floor and now I can get (somewhat) comfortable lying down with her if she wakes. Sometimes I even fall asleep there for a few hours!

I was (and am) still nursing her to sleep 99% of the time. My DH will sometimes hum her to sleep after me nursing her for an hour or so... Sometimes now after she nurses, she signs "bed" an wants me to put her down on her bed so that she can go to sleep without me interfering (!). It's a long road, but it does get better, Amy. I am sorry you are stressed out and sleep deprived right now! All I can say is, I have SO BTDT. I have been tempted to CIO too, but never did, thank goddess. Sometimes I just get SO itchy for my personal space, YKWIM? Like with every suckle of her mouth I just want to rip my boob back from her and point to it and be like, "MINE!" Then, I come to my senses and realize that if I just let her nurse for like 3 more minutes, I could be blessed with another few hours of sleep. So I nurse her. BUT... Don't get be wrong. If we could be night-weaned right now, I'd be SO all over that. I am working toward the night weaning thing. But Amy, know that nightweaning takes a lot of extra effort in the night. When you are already sleep-deprived and grumpy (I get this way a lot...) you can't calmly go to your child, do something OTHER than nurse and be gentle, calm, and quiet even as your child cries. It's just too hard. I'd recommend getting a bit of good sleep before trying to shake up the routine too much. And give yourself a good long stretch of time before you think you will be nightweaned. Like 6 months or a year... then if you nightwean in 3 months it will seem like a miracle!

[spughy]

Well our sleep troubles have resumed. Last night I had Rowan with me the whole night to give DH a break and she slept for all of an hour in the crib and then woke up. I nursed her back to sleep and put her back in the crib; she woke 20 minutes later but went back to sleep when I picked her up. I put her back in her crib and she slept for 4 hours. I thought "oh good" and put her back in after she woke up. And then she slept only 2 hours, and it was 6:30, so I nursed her and just kept her in bed with me figuring we'd get another couple hours of snoozing... but no, she woke up at 7:30 and didn't really want to nurse so she didn't go back to sleep. And since she didn't go to sleep last night until around 9:30 she didn't get nearly enough sleep last night so she was cranky and difficult this morning, so DH took her out for a walk in the sling figuring she'd conk out for a bit. They're still out so hopefully she's having a little snooze and will be human for the rest of the day.

Last night we managed to get the white noise in the bedroom set up - a serenity fountain and a power supply and hard drive DH had lying around. I'm not sure it helped at all, but I need to make her crib more comfy too. I'm going to go get bumper pads for it so she can smoosh her head against the top comfortably.

But, DH missed her last night. It's funny how they can be such a PITA but when they're not there, it's worse.

Amy - please don't do CIO. It really does desensitize you to your baby. Remember how a couple months ago I mentioned that a mama we know was at her wit's end and going to try CIO? Well, she ended up doing it. And she kept doing it, even when the baby was crying for a reason. A few weeks ago DH told me that she said her little one was teething and she cried so hard she threw up - because mama was still convinced that she had to just let her cry. This is a mama who only resorted to CIO as a last resort, and she didn't want to do it in the first place. And she went from being against it to letting her baby cry so hard she threw up. So please, please, don't do it! Brynn WILL grow out of this.

[flapjack]

Mentioning CIO, I'm trying to support a mama who is struggling with a sleepless bottlefed newborn at night. If anyone has any ideas what you do with such a baby, please LMK. She isn't receptive to cosleeping.

[DucetteMama21842]

Gosh.. it's been awhile since I've checked in and I feel sort of bad since I feel on top of the world right now and everyone else's worlds seem so rocky at the moment! : Well.. I love ya all and hope things ease up.

I, at the moment (and it will probably change within an hour.. ) feel like I have my kids tackled. Isaac has finally hit the point where he is really communicating with his "eeehh!" cry and pointing and they both are playing fantastically together. Well.. Dom has been dying for this moment as he's been so excited over Isaac and Isaac would never play with him until now. I feel like they are at the perfect age and I am just enjoying them so much. I feel like it only gets easier from here once Isaac starts conversing, and that's such a relief. But in way, it's like saying goodbye to my baby. Even though he is a toddler.. I considered him my baby still- and a part of me always will- but he's turning into such a big boy now! Right before my very eyes..

Life is a beautiful thing.

[*Amy*]

So, after a long talk with DH tonight, we decided that we are definitely going to try to transition her into the pack 'n play, at least for the time being. Anyway, I tried the new routine tonight:

7:30 - play in her room and read stories
8:00 - nurse
8:15 - brush teeth
8:30 - last few minutes of playing
8:45 - a few more minutes of nursing
8:47 - into the pack 'n play

Before we started the routine, I had a talk with her explaining that she was going to sleep in her "bed" and that after milk and teeth brushing, it would be time for night-night. I kept reminding her about it, and then she and her dolly, Minnie (she named her!), got in for a few minutes, and she told Minnie night night and rubbed her back. Then she got out and we played in her room for a few more minutes.

After our last nursing, when she was almost asleep, I put her in the pack 'n play and told her it was time for night-night. She stood up and played for a minute and then told me "Up Mama!" but I told her it was time for sleep. I was able to distract her from crying for about 10 minutes by talking about Minnie, and letting her turn her aquarium night-light thing off and on, and all of that. She finally got really pissed at 9:00, and cried pretty hard - off and on - for about 15 minutes. By 9:20, she was basically falling asleep with her head resting on the top rail of the p 'n p, and I finally coaxed her into laying on the pillow and letting me rub her back. She was out within a minute! She may not sleep long for this first round (usually when she falls asleep after crying, she wakes up within 30 minutes), but my goal for tonight and the next 13 days is for her to go to sleep ONCE per night on her own. When she wakes up, I'll nurse her in her room, and then bring her back to bed with me. After this two weeks, we'll move on to going to sleep twice on her own (if she isn't already), and so forth.

So all and all, it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, and I could tell that even though she was really pissed that I wasn't picking her up, she was truly OK....and I think she *gets it*. I am very curious to see how it goes tomorrow. I hear y'all on the CIO thing, but I feel like this isn't CIO in the mainstream sense - i.e., leave the baby in another room and shut the door. I was right there with her, talking to her and telling her that I wasn't going to leave her alone. After a lot of soul-searching, I feel like these are the boundaries that I need to begin setting for my own sense of self-preservation and for Brynn's development. I know that some of you may disagree with this choice...but after everything we've been through, I feel like there really weren't too many options left.

Anyway..... I'm going to go get ready for bed and enjoy my brief moments of having the bed completely to myself!!!

[Queen of Cups]

Amy, if you're there with her comforting her and talking to her it is NOT "crying it out" - trust me, there will be lots of times in the toddler years when your toddler will cry, and you can't always make it stop. When a toddler cries because they're not happy, its not CIO. When a child cries and you lock them in a room to teach them that you will not help them and they ought to give up and go to sleep, that is CIO - in my opinion, anyway.

[DucetteMama21842]

I agree.

[barcelona]

Amy, I am so sorry you have been going through such a challenging time with sleep with Brynn. That sounds so hard. I am so glad that the first part of the night, at least, last night, went so well, except for the fifteen minutes of crying...but it sounds like she did really get it, and you were there for her as much as you could be given the situation, and what you have to do for your sanity. How long did she stay asleep in the pack n play? It sounds like have a great plan.

I wish I had other suggestions or tips, but don't, as I haven't really been to that point of desperation. I have almost gotten there, but then Finley will start sleeping pretty well. (and the cycle has repeated itself)

He seemed to have turned a corner the past two weeks, sleeping beautifully, and only waking once early in the morning to nurse (maybe one other time in the middle of the night), and also going for longer stretches without me in the bed before we come to bed. Of course, I guess to keep up with the crazy sleeping of the group, last night was awful. He was up all night long, and I think it was started by waking up in a wet diaper/pjs. Thankfully, now he's taking a nice solid nap, and my DH took him this morning and let sleep a couple extra hours. But, I am hoping last night was a one-time thing, and we'll go back to his super-sleeping tonight. It definitely feels like a developmental milestone, thing, though, his new sleeping patterns and habits. He will even sometimes go back to sleep with DH patting his back (if he wakes before we come to bed). Once I'm in bed, though, if he wakes, he insists on the boob.

Ducette, I'm so glad you're having a great moment with your boys. They are amazing, and how fun it must be to see a new chapter evolving before your eyes, as your boys become friends.

Helen, unfortunately, I don't have any advice for a bottlefed non cosleeping baby. Hope someone has suggestions. So glad you're feeling less queasy.

Spughy, sorry you guys had a rough night last night! Hope it goes back to better asap.

Hi to everyone!

[spughy]

Well we had another rough night. Rowan was sooo cranky yesterday afternoon (she only had an hour-long nap after her bad sleep the night before) so DH took her for a walk around 5 and she conked right out. I woke her just after 6 to have dinner, but she wouldn't hear of it, she just started crying when I put her in her booster seat so I took her out and nursed her instead. Then of course she wouldn't eat any dinner, even when I offered her parts of our dessert (sauteed pears with whipped cream) she liked it, but didn't really want much. So when it was finally bedtime she hadn't had much to eat, so she woke up after 2 hours, then after 3 hours, then after 3 hours, then after 1 hour, then 1 1/2, and hey! it's morning. At least she got MORE sleep last night, although still not the nice 12 hours she was getting last week. But this morning her appetite has been crappy too so maybe she is just "digesting" after the massive amounts of food she ate last week (according to DH). Anyway, she is asleep now and I hope she's out for a good long time. She's on the couch so I"m going to take this opportunity to sit with her and veg, and if she wakes early I can grab her quickly and smuck her on a boob. My boobs are kind of reeling from all the nursing - "what the hell?" they say. "Last week it was 3 times a day if we were lucky, and now we've nursed 7 times and it's only barely afternoon! We can't deal with this!" My milk supply apparently takes some time to adjust to a massive increase in demand. With my luck, it'll catch up about midday tomorrow, when I'm at work, and I'll get another plugged duct. Sigh.

Also, this all might be because she has a molar just about ready to pop through. I gave her some tylenol before her nap.

Amy - that's not CIO. Don't worry mama, I think you're doing the right thing there. You're lucky Brynn understands you so well, I think she'll adjust just fine.