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help convincing dh not to circ  

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
I am not a mother (yet!), but last night dh and I were chatting about circ'ing. He said "I am willing to let you do everything else you want (bf, no vax, co-sleep, hs etc) and you need to let me get our (future) son circ'd" I, kinda, dropped it for the evening by being non-committal and saying that he had to watch a video of it being done before I would even consider it. To which he replied that he has seen it being done before and I "need to do it for him (my dh)" I dont know how to convince him not to want to do it. Any ideas you ladies can give me to convince him? Thanks!

Lauren

-Oh yeah, I WONT let it happen, even if he wants it done, but I would rather change his mind, then to just say no, KWIM?
post #2 of 26
I'd start with the Penn & Teller video. http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...r+circumcision
Don't tell him your trying to convince him not to circ let him think it's his idea.
post #3 of 26
Most of the ladies in here say that he needs to convice YOU of why a a healthy baby boys needs immediate corrective 'surgery' at birth. It forces him to research it and then allows you to rebuttle all of his fears. HE is the one that has to justify it, not you.

He's seen a circ video? Not many people have, I would question him further about this one. Ask him to watch the circ video here at MDC.

keep us posted.
post #4 of 26
My first question to him would be why. Find out what his reasons are. They are probably the same reason you hear all the time. Then go from there.

I would put the burden of proof on him tho. Make him do the research and bring you the facts. Then you can counter all the myths he will bring up.

I think you should settle this issue long before you get pg (if you are not already) so that you dont end up like some mom's have here in the past and be stuck with a horrible stressed out pg.
post #5 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by illumini View Post
...I "need to do it for him (my dh)"...
I think first of all he needs to realize that this isn't about him! While this study is dated (I believe this link was posted elsewhere here at MDC), to my knowledge the process hasn't changed since. Is this what he wants for his child?

Unfortunately, you'll have to deal which arguments such as this.

Ask him, if he's insistent, why it would have to be done right away? Why not wait and let his son decide if/when he wants it done.

Truly, I sympathize with him. I had similar thoughts when we were expecting. I am not intact and had strong feelings that, if we had a boy, I would want him circ'ed as well...for all the wrong reasons, in hind-sight.

Be aware that it is probably a very emotional decision for him and not based on hard science. Even if you make a very strong case against circ, he may find it difficult, if not impossible, to override his emotional bias. This may be his first difficult step in fatherhood maturation.
post #6 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kldliam View Post
He's seen a circ video? Not many people have, I would question him further about this one. Ask him to watch the circ video here at MDC.
I believe him when he says it b/c of the type of person he is and the jobs he has worked at, but that being said I do plan on making him watch one prior to being pregnant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCatLvrMoMof2
I think you should settle this issue long before you get pg (if you are not already) so that you dont end up like some mom's have here in the past and be stuck with a horrible stressed out pg.
Nope not pregnant yet! Just a knowledge seeker and a planner. I hate surprises, thats why I want this out in the open with him up-front, kwim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greendaddy
Ask him, if he's insistent, why it would have to be done right away? Why not wait and let his son decide if/when he wants it done.
I think I will try that. And, since we are both information based people I will also make him do the research, since I already have. I may also start leaving some studies and such in the bathroom so he can "choose" to read it . Thanks for all the great advise already! Is there anything else anyone can think of?

Lauren
post #7 of 26
Out of curiousity, why do YOU have to tell HIM anything? HE'S the one who wants something done - you want NOTHING done, therefore HE needs to be convincing YOU.
post #8 of 26
Quote:
we are both information based people I will also make him do the research, since I already have. I may also start leaving some studies and such in the bathroom so he can "choose" to read it
Great idea The bathroom is a great place to leave info. If he is anything like my dh there is no such thing as a quck trip to the bathroom
post #9 of 26
Thread Starter 
Fi- I did amend myself by saying
Quote:
And, since we are both information based people I will also make him do the research, since I already have.
The leaving studies and information packets in the bathroom is only as a "back-up plan", per se. I want him to come to me with information as to why we should, but I dont want that to be the only thing he relies on. I would prefer him to be completely on board with this decision, instead of him resenting me for the rest of his life because of it. I WILL NOT circ, no matter what he says, but I do like harmony and peace in a household, instead of strife. So that is why I would like some help in this area. I do agree the burden of proof is in his court, but I would like to be able to "lend a hand" when it comes to him doing the research, hence the "cry for help" as I have now termed it . Again, a big thank you for everyone's responses, they have helped me more than I can express!

Lauren
post #10 of 26
Hi Lauren,

Good luck with helping your dh with this issue. As someone else said, this is most likely an emotional thing for him, because he is circumcised.

Here is a very good article that may help you understand where he is coming from:

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

If you know the fears, it is easier to counter them.
post #11 of 26
Hi Lauren, I commend you for investigating this before you get pregnant.

Like others have said, he is the one that wants to DO something, so ask him to convince you WHY it should be done. None of the reasons are valid and can be easily debunked (just ask here if you need help ) and no medical association in the world recommends routine infant circumcision. So asking your DH to give you a compelling reason can't backfire - no compelling reasons exist. Win-win!

It's long, but I'm going to post the spiel I've posted on other discussion boards regarding circ. Feel free to use anything from it, and this board in general is a wonderful resource. That article that Mommiska posted is really good for you to read, and the Penn & Teller is pretty good for your dh to start with.

My pasted spiel (if it seems like some of it is answering a question, it probably was...it's just easier to paste everything).

Not my body, not my choice. I would not ever, ever risk messing with my son's sexuality. Routine Infant Circumcision was perpetuated in this country as a means to reduce pleasure of the penis, to cut down on masturbation and sexuality. That right there was enough reason for me to NOT do it. So many "sexual problems" between couples that are regarded as normal...painful, sore sex, dryness, loss of penile sensation as a man ages...these are all things that can be attributed to circumcision, as the head of the penis keratinizes (almost like scar tissue). The glans is supposed to be an internal organ. Imagine your urethral opening totally exposed, rubbing against your underwear every day. :
Dr's do not know where to cut - it's guess work at best. If they take too much, they can end up with buried penis syndrome, curved penis, hair on the shaft of the penis, and painful erections (I was with a cut guy once who's skin would actually SPLIT). Cut too loose, and the remaining foreskin tries to heal and reattach to the glans, resulting in adhesions and possibly more surgery. It's been said here several times that dr's often "stimulate" the baby to erection to get an idea of where to cut during erection, the shape of the head of the penis is visible through the foreskin).
When I saw Cully after he was born, the practice seemed even more barbaric to me...they have to first insert an instrument to separate the foreskin from the glans (and remember, the skin is FUSED, like a fingernail to your nail bed).

I also saw a video of a circ being done, a medical one on a hospital website. I got to the part where they separated the foreskin - the sound that came out of that baby was the worst thing I've ever heard. I was pregnant, I literally ran to the bathroom and threw up. I have never been able to watch the video all the way through.

More and more dr's are aware of the complications of tight circs (seen in a lot of 1970s babies), so they are doing them looser and looser, so many circed babies don't even look circed.

I've been with intact and circed...circed men seem to have no feeling in the head of their penis. Intact men have LOTS of feeling. Circing almost always removes the frenulum, which most intact men will tell you is a very nice thing to have. Some of the men on this board can pipe up about that.

One thing that is a very common misconception in the US is that you have to clean underneath the foreskin. Many parents think circing is cleaner for this reason. THIS IS NOT TRUE. According to the AAP, you never, ever, ever allow anyone but the owner of said penis to retract it, and you NEVER wash underneath it. This is what causes infections. The foreskin is fused to the glans, and commonly doesn't separate until puberty. Leave it alone until then. I've slapped a dr's hand away for "just wanting to take a look". They don't need to take a look in a healthy baby girl's vagina, and they don't need to take a look underneath the foreskin, especially if the baby isn't having any problem peeing or anything like that. It's a self-cleansing organ, you just leave it alone. When they become retractable (and only the boy should be the one to test this) then you teach them to "retract & swish" with plain water. Soap is as irritating to the glans as it is to a vagina.

The circ rate is dropping everywhere. Usually, the rates are released around April for the previous year...they have yet to be releases for 2005. I believe this is because the rates are so low. There is a LOT of money in circumcision, in cosmetic companies, and primarily beiogenetics companies. The hospitals/drs "donate" them to companies that use them for skin grafting techniques (Apligraf is the name brand of the most common one). I didn't believe this when I first heard it, so I ended up paying for a bunch of actual abstract studies regarding human foreskin and these biogenesis companies...I was disgusted and am convinced that $$ is the sole reason this practice is allowed to continue today. One company I paid for abstracts from said that one single "human infant preputial tissue" could be used to create $750,000 worth of engineered tissue. The company also quoted it's "preputial tissue applications" as $1.2 billion/yr business.

The pain factor was the initial reason I didn't want to do it, the rest of it I researched over time. I told Alex it would be over my dead body that Cully would be cut, and I meant it.
Infants circed with EMLA (that numbing cream) show cortisol levels that are outrageously high, enough to put an adult into a coma (and those babies that "fall asleep" are usually in shock). It can mess with breastfeeding, bonding, and it increases risk of infection (an open wound in a dirty diaper?).

There is no good reason to circ, and 1000 reasons not to.


Anyway...we've never had any problem with Cully's penis/foreskin. Poop doesn't get in there, it's easy to clean (just wipe it like a finger). As far as "not looking like daddy", we will simply explain that when Daddy was a baby, dr's thought it was healthier, and now we know it isn't.

One more thing...it can always be done as an adult, but it can't be undone. If your friend does a google search for "foreskin restoration" there are literally hundreds of thousands of men who are trying to restore their foreskin, to undo some of the damage and regain feeling and sensitivity. I would rather my son have the option to have the surgery done, as a fully informed adult with adequate anesthesia and pain relief, rather than have to try to restore something that never should've been taken from him in the first place.

1. Regarding circ's "having to be done" at a later age...that's because dr's in this country are cut happy. Issues that could be easily solved by other methods aren't even bothered with, they just circ. Recurring UTIs? Circ. I'm glad they just give a woman antibiotics rather than just cut off some of my labia.
Yeast infections? Chop it off. Can you imagine if a doctor recommended that to a woman? Besides, most of the infections you hear about are CAUSED by doctors or parents that are retracting the foreskin to clean under it, which is HARMFUL. The foreskin is attached to the glans like a fingernail is attached to the fingertip. ripping it apart repeatedly causes it to tear and, guess what, get infected. If people would just leave the damned thing alone, it would be fine.

2. "He has a penis, it's his decision". Yes, the father may have a penis, but he doesn't have intact genitals. I do.

3. My dh is circed, but he didn't want ds circed after I talked to him about it. I told him he would have to pry the baby out of my cold dead hands if he had insisted, and he believed me. Marriage is a partnership, this is true. But I will not bargain with, or appease someone with a part of my child's body. Getting it done means it can never be undone. Yes, as an adult he could restore, but it's not the same thing. He can always get it done as an adult. Honestly, if my husband had been dead set on having it done, it would've destroyed our marriage and he would've had to take me to court over it. To me, it's tantamount to sexual abuse, and I would never allow my husband to insist I circumcise my daughter....and I think my son is worthy of the same protection.

4. It is NOT a parent's decision to make for their son. That son will one day grow to become an adult, and those are HIS GENITALS you are messing with. His sex organs! No one, NO ONE but him has any right hacking off any single piece of his sex organ, not for any reason. It's not cleaner, it's not healthier, and I would not take the smallest risk of altering my son's future sex life for what is purely cosmetic surgery (even according to the AAP). The "parent's decision" really really makes me mad. No parent owns their childs genitals.

5. Pain during infant circumcision isn't the main factor for me. The fact that dr's still perform it without pain killers makes me want to throw up (have you ever seen a circ? I watched a video while I was pregnant, and I had to turn it off, and run to the bathroom to throw up. To this day, I have nightmares about the sound that came from that baby when they separated his foreskin from his glans), and is nothing short of torture...but putting that aside...it's a human rights issue, simply. No one has the right to make such a personal decision for another human being. Parentship does not mean ownership. It's not up to a parent to alter their son surgically so that he matches their cultured ideals of what makes an "attractive penis".
post #12 of 26
"Do it for me" is the clearest example of why so many babies get circumcised. It isn't about health. It's about the husband's insecurity. I am not giving your dh crap, b/c mine was the same way, as were many others. But it is just funny to see it said so clearly - it is for the father, so he can feel okay, not for the baby.

Also, you can tell him that your baby's penis is not a bargaining chip.
post #13 of 26
Yeah all the above...

And you don't want your sons foreskin going into face cream to be sold for 125$ and ounce...right?

Sorry, OT, I know but this is what the foreskin harvesting industry does with them!
post #14 of 26
Lauren, I'm so glad you and your DH are discussing this before you even get pregnant!

I cringed when I read his "do it for ME" comment. This is NOT about your DH - it's about your baby.

Will you breastfeed because it is best for YOU? Of course not - it's best for the baby (the fact that YOU benefit is well is a wonderful bonus!). Will you homeschool because it is best for YOU? Not likely. How about your vaccination decision - do YOUR needs enter into the picture?

So why should your precious son be circumcised "for me"?

Hopefully, once you DO get pregnant, your DH's paternal instincts will kick in, and he will realize the absurdity of performing cosmetic surgery on a normal, healthy, perfect baby. Best wishes to you!
post #15 of 26
Just to reassure you, even if your dh doesn't really get on board with leaving ds intact, and you have to put your foot down and say "over my dead body" -- from all reports, most dhs get over it really quickly. They don't hold it against their partners forever, especially once the baby is born and they really get the personhood of their child. Funny to say, but many men just don't seem to get that their babies are real, live human beings with personalities from birth, so it's easy for them to insist on circumcision while their children are still hypothetical (and even when they exist, but in utero, where for most men the physical reality of the baby is just not the same as the mother's experience).
post #16 of 26
Better yet, how about instead of watching a video you tell him that he has to witness an actual circumcision (not your own son's of course!) where no numbing is done. Volunteer to go with him. Put the burden onto him.
I did this to my husband and not another word was said. USE THE POWER THAT YOU HAVE AS A MOTHER AND PROTECT YOUR SON! MAKE IT CLEAR ON YOUR FEELINGS, TONIGHT!!
You will do fine with it.
post #17 of 26
Well said dynamohumm6! I agree.
post #18 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by illumini View Post
He said "I am willing to let you do everything else you want (bf, no vax, co-sleep, hs etc) and you need to let me get our (future) son circ'd"
i dont know Lauren, this statement raises huge flags with me. I would question him on why he thinks he is ALLOWING you to bf, etc. This is definitely a conversation to be had prior to kids.

good luck~
post #19 of 26
Seriously, if I wasn't pregnant and my husband brought this kind of junk up while talking about our future children, THERE WOULD BE NO CHILDREN. Also, I wouldn't depend on him researching the topic. I'm sure he'll find all the pro-circ sites very informative and avoid anything graphic.

Someone has a signature that says something like "strap a man down on a table, spread his legs and cut off part of his penis and it's assault. Strap a baby down on a table, spread his legs and cut off part of his penis and it's circumcision."
post #20 of 26
Thread Starter 
QUOTE=aisraeltax]I don’t know Lauren, this statement raises huge flags with me. I would question him on why he thinks he is ALLOWING you to bf, etc. This is definitely a conversation to be had prior to kids.[/QUOTE]
I must say that I don't really think he was referring to bf, but mainly no vaxing, co-sleeping, and other things that do involve him and I would allow him to have a say in it. I just kind of threw that one in there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarinet
Seriously, if I wasn't pregnant and my husband brought this kind of junk up while talking about our future children, THERE WOULD BE NO CHILDREN.
Well, I am the one who brought it up because I would prefer to have everything out in the open before having children. This is not one of the "no children" offenses in my mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarinet
Also, I wouldn't depend on him researching the topic. I'm sure he'll find all the pro-circ sites very informative and avoid anything graphic.
Avoid anything graphic, he he...not my dh. He loooooves watching surgeries and medical procedures. They fascinate him to no end (not in a creepy way though, just in an information gathering way )

I haven’t brought it up again since New Years Eve because he has been dealing with the school losing his transcripts (again!), work problems, and dealing with moving out in a week. I probably will casually bring it up in the next two weeks or so and gauge his reaction then. Thanks again for all of your help.

Lauren
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