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Update on Hawaii Trip - Page 7

post #121 of 167
Maya44, are you even following this thread anymore?
post #122 of 167
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmlp View Post
Maya44, are you even following this thread anymore?

Still here. Spoke with CSIL and MSIL over the weekend. CSIL told me she was happy to be home, though her kids asked on the airplane if they could 'for sure' go back next year. I guess CSIL had said she would go this time but probably not again with all these rules in place. She told the girls that if they went again the same rules would be in place and they said that they did not care.

She also said her oldest DD asked if she could make shrimp sometime. She said to me "Don't tell MSIL. She'll get too much pleasure out of that!"
post #123 of 167
Quote:
when I was around 8 I spent a week at my aunt & uncles house. the first day, my cousin and I (same age) were playing in the living room, roughhousing and whatnot. something happened and I either slipped and grabbed or hit her- not intentionally or violently, and she wasn't injured- but my aunt was extremely upset at me and decided to LOCK me in my cousin's room. I remember they opened the door once so that my cousin could throw my cabbage patch doll at me, then closed it. I laid on the bed and cried, so scared and confused as to why I was being treated this way for an accident, at home if it had been my sister, no one would have punished me, and never so severely.
This is exactly what I mean.

All the talk about "When in Rome..." and big kids "rolling with the punches"....uh, we travel all the time. These phrases mean things like... you pick dinner from the choices offered at the only rest stop for miles...you don't complain about the lumpy hide-a-bed Uncle Frank let you sleep on for free....you find something else to do till the next stop when you realize your gameboy was packed in a bag at the bottom of the trunk...you take shoes off at the door if that's what the host family does too...you remember to store their bread in the fridge, even though at home you store it in the pantry....

"When In Rome" does not mean that you meekly subject yourself to someone who speaks to you like a second class citizen. It doesn't mean silently enduring someone who oppress's your right to explain yourself, attend a party, bring and prepare your own snack foods etc.

We just got back from staying two weeks with a host family out of state during a workshop. Ds was fabulous if I do say so...polite, considerate, and made a real effort to do everything on their schedule. At home we don't eat at formal times, but the host family was very big into scheduled meals. Did they force us to eat? No, they simply asked around 3pm if we planned to eat with them at 6, and as we always say YES to free food, we adjusted to their schedule. Ds did not HAVE to eat with us...the host herself made a point of saying that there was bread and peanut butter if he wanted that (how ironic!). But he wanted to be where the action was and 99% of the time he ate with the group. By the end of the first week he was very comfortable in their routine. Nobody ever forced him, nobody made it their business to micro manage when/what/how ds ate. He enjoyed picking and choosing from what was on the table, and usually ate the main course, although there were some meals where he chose to just eat a roll or a little salad at the table and then had a sandwich afterwards. It was just a non-issue. I honestly think adults make these things into big deals-not the kids.

In fact I thought it was hysterical at the end of the first week ds piped up during dinner and said 'I get it!. When everyone is gone all day at work or at school and don't see each other, they eat a meal at the same time so that everyone gets to tell about their day. Is that right?'. Apparently ds had been politely observing for a week that all the adults went over their day while they ate-talking about the workshop or sightseeing experiences. He figured out on his own the point of "dinner at 6". Ds decided given the daytime schedules involved....dinner at 6 was a very sensible plan

Maya...did you have any idea you'd get 7 pages out of this thread
post #124 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivka5 View Post
You're close - it's Judy Blume, all right. That scene was in "Blubber." And she runs into the girl her class torments at the Bar Mitzvah, and it's really uncomfortable.

Thank you! At least I had the right author - lol!
post #125 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey's mom View Post
CSIL didn't have a chance to ask ahead of time. MSIL made the rules based on last year's visit and sent them out beforehand.

And if you want to make rules that affect parenting issues which are disruptive or whatever, then I'm pretty OK with that. But, I'm not sure how making a sandwich or skipping a party fits into that category. I just don't think it's reasonable.
Actually, I get the feeling that this was not based simply on last years trip but on the previous year and the year before that. It appears that CSIL has gone on this trip every year with the idea in mind that HER rules, parenting styles and ideologies (no adult only parties) apply no matter where she is and who is around. I think that based on last years temper tantrum by her that MSIL had just had enough of it and put her foot down on everything rather than just on one or two things.

Like I said, had CSIL approached MSIL years ago quietly and said, "you know I want to come but I have a rule for raising my children that includes only giving them what they want at meals, can I please be allowed to bring extra food for them at meals." Then I can't see that MSIL wouldn't have either given in or politely suggested that she feed them ahead of time to avoid conflicts with the other 5+ children and 10+ adults.

Instead CSIL went each year and ran MSIL's house the way she ran her own house.

1. Don't believe in adults only parties - fine, leave the house with your children but instead she kept allowing them to come and had an adult temper tantrum when MSIL finally said no.

2. Don't believe in making your children pick up after themselves - fine, but in someone else's home don't tell your children they are allowed to disregard the requests of the hostess.

3. Don't believe in making your children sit through the entire meal - fine, eat somewhere else but don't disrupt the other 15 people at the table.

4. Don't believe in certain tv shows - fine, leave the room but don't make them turn off the tv for your children.

5. Don't believe in bed times - fine, stay with your children in their room so as to avoid disrupting the other sleeping children and relaxing adults but don't let them run someone else's house at 10:00 pm.

I don't think anyone in MSIL's camp will argue that she isn't overbearing on some of the smaller points however, I can see that after several years of CSIL's behavior and attitude it was just easier for her to put her foot down everywhere rather than just the big points. It guarantees that CSIL won't pick different battles next year in order to annoy on purpose.
post #126 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by bri276 View Post
I think it's easy to forget what it feels like to be 8. still so much a small child emotionally. unable to see through the actions of adults because your world is so small, you take each injustice personally, as if you are at fault for it. it is intimidating enough to leave home, travel, and stay at someone else's home- when you can sense that you, or your parents, are not TRULY welcome to be yourselves, and that your own mother's authority is being undermined, it must be uncomfortable. I would never bend someone else's non-abusive parenting style to fit the "rules" of my house, because doing so isn't fair to their children. jmho. I don't think either SIL are bad people- just misguided. ftr there are things I agree and disagree with them both, but have to choose CSIL overall.
I think the difference here is that the kids seemed to have a really great time. They enjoyed being upstairs having a "sleepover" with cousins--but CSIL was grumpy that they didn't prefer to be with her. They enjoyed going to the Japanese restaurant and trying the shrimp (and even asked their mom to make it again!) and didn't want to be left out--but CSIL didn't thank MBIL for the meal. Even the food didn't seem like much of an issue for the kids--one of CSIL's kids didn't want the pizza (though the other two enjoyed it), but seemed fine knowing that she would get PB+J later on. The kids asked if they could go back next here.

I guess the problem I have with CSIL's behavior (and I certainly don't think MSIL emerges from all this looking like a saint) is that she seems to be projecting onto her kids how she WANTS them to feel about MSIL, when really it's how SHE feels about MSIL.
post #127 of 167
I think you are making a lot of assumptions and embellishments about what happened or what might have happened and drawing conclusions based on them.

I don't know where Maya stated anyone had "an adult temper tantrum," that children were "running the house" at 10 at night, etc.

Perhaps easier to stick to "the facts" and draw our conclusions from there. ?? Maybe? Makes it easier to discuss, it seems.

eta: directed towards mahrphkjh, not the above.
post #128 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCVeg View Post
I think the difference here is that the kids seemed to have a really great time. They enjoyed being upstairs having a "sleepover" with cousins--but CSIL was grumpy that they didn't prefer to be with her. They enjoyed going to the Japanese restaurant and trying the shrimp (and even asked their mom to make it again!) and didn't want to be left out--but CSIL didn't thank MBIL for the meal. Even the food didn't seem like much of an issue for the kids--one of CSIL's kids didn't want the pizza (though the other two enjoyed it), but seemed fine knowing that she would get PB+J later on. The kids asked if they could go back next here.
Well you could argue that, of course the kids had a good time LOL--they got to indulge in things they are used to having restricted--TV, sodas.

I think CSIL was grumpy b/c she HAD to attend the party, not b/c her kids didn't want her. Some people don't do well with parties--perhaps she's one of them. Especially if she's crunchy and alternative and MSIL/BSIL's guests are real mainstream. And some people think "kid only" events aren't nice--perhaps she's one of those people--that's the sense I got from the first thread. I got the impression that she was hoping to hang out with the kids more as an excuse to not have to go.

I'm glad the kids had fun. But, I don't think that's any great proof that you shouldn't try to tamper with other folks' parenting agendas.

I'm sure MSIL's kids would love to not have to do chores or have a bedtime in CSIL's house. But, it wouldn't make it any less rude for CSIL to step in in that regard when MSIL feels chores and bedtimes are important.
post #129 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahrphkjh View Post
It guarantees that CSIL won't pick different battles next year in order to annoy on purpose.
You think CSIL is trying to purposfully annoy MSIL?
post #130 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey's mom View Post
You think CSIL is trying to purposfully annoy MSIL?
I strongly suspect that she is...but then, similar situations I've seen in my own extended family have probably biased my viewpoint

I'm glad that CSIL and MSIL were able to overcome their personality clash enough for all the kids to have a good time. It would suck for the kids to lose the opportunity to have fun and bond together because their mothers were being petty.
post #131 of 167
I have followed both threads and I am team MSIL.

I think some of the 'arguing' here is pointless.

The kids had a great time... The neice actually did try new foods and (shocker) liked them! Has anyone stopped to think that maybe CSIL isnt allowing her kids to branch out and try new things? If she had brought pb&j with to the resturant, the child would not have tried, and enjoyed, shrimp. Now maybe the neice will feel confident and comfortable trying new things in the future.

I agree with whoever (sorry!) said that it seems CSIL is projecting her ideas about MSIL onto her children ('if we go back next year you will have to follow the same rules'), which is sad.

Anyway, it seems everyone had a great time regardless of the rules. The cousins got to see each other and the neice got to experience new foods.. Seems like a fun trip to me!
post #132 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by choli View Post
I strongly suspect that she is...but then, similar situations I've seen in my own extended family have probably biased my viewpoint
So how? Like she doesn't really make her kids not do chores? Or have bedtimes? Or get up when they're done eating?

Those were some of the points of contention, so I'm not sure how CSIL would be doing those things to deliberately annoy MSIL. ?? Unless, you think she only does that stuff around MSIL. ?? I don't understand.
post #133 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey's mom View Post
So how? Like she doesn't really make her kids not do chores? Or have bedtimes? Or get up when they're done eating?

Those were some of the points of contention, so I'm not sure how CSIL would be doing those things to deliberately annoy MSIL. ?? Unless, you think she only does that stuff around MSIL. ?? I don't understand.
No, like two sisters in law trying to one up each other about who's parenting style is "best".

It gets old.
post #134 of 167
Quote:
The kids had a great time... The neice actually did try new foods and (shocker) liked them! Has anyone stopped to think that maybe CSIL isnt allowing her kids to branch out and try new things? If she had brought pb&j with to the resturant, the child would not have tried, and enjoyed, shrimp. Now maybe the neice will feel confident and comfortable trying new things in the future.
Ds tried new things with our host family and it wasn't necessary to force him. Did he try everything? No. Did he pick up a few new favorites? Yes.

I honestly have not seen with ds that knowing a sandwich is available means he will never try new foods.

And, I will say that in general, I notice that kids around 10 and up begin to try more foods *no matter how they were raised before that age*. By the teen years I definitely recall my friends starting to think it was 'cool' to eat lots of ethnic and foreign foods.

I really think MSIL and CSIL had a right to parent how they wanted, and there was just no need for one to be over-riding the other to "prove" anything
post #135 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by emmabelle View Post
Has anyone stopped to think that maybe CSIL isnt allowing her kids to branch out and try new things? If she had brought pb&j with to the resturant, the child would not have tried, and enjoyed, shrimp. Now maybe the neice will feel confident and comfortable trying new things in the future.
I think pretty much EVERYONE here thinks that CSIL isn't allowing her kids to branch out and try new things.

But, does that give someone else the right to step in and do it differently?

Maybe that's OK with you, I don't know. I don't think it's OK.

Just as I wouldn't think it was OK for someone to tell a formula feeding mother that she had to bf in my home, or a family who used a crib that they had to co-sleep in my home, or that a family couldn't put their baby in a swing for extended periods but had to sling them.

Just b/c we believe that bfing, co-sleeping, and babywearing are ideal, and just b/c their baby would probably be happier co-sleeping, etc. for the week in my house, does not change the fact that I would be imposing MY parenting agenda on another family.

Does that make sense? Regardless of the outcome, regardless of where you stand on the issue...for me the question is: Is it fair game to try to impose parenting styles/methods on people just b/c they are guests in your home (and if what they're doing isn't causing a mess or disurbing people or otherwise interfering with the well-being of the rest of the group)?

I just can't see how that's cool. Apparantly other people feel differently and that surprises me and I'm really trying to understand the ins and outs of that thinking. I find it *completely* baffling. :


Quote:
Originally Posted by emmabelle View Post
I agree with whoever (sorry!) said that it seems CSIL is projecting her ideas about MSIL onto her children ('if we go back next year you will have to follow the same rules'), which is sad.
How is that statement projecting? Her kids asked if they could go back and she told them the conditions. Are you envisioning it said in a particular tone? I'm hearing, "Listen, I know you had some problems with the cleaning up and crying over the pizza, just so you know, that's all going to stand. Do you still agree to that?" And they said sure. It's not like the was complaining or trying to get them to talk smack about MSIL.
post #136 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by choli View Post
No, like two sisters in law trying to one up each other about who's parenting style is "best".

It gets old.
No, I understand that level of "competition" among people, but I'm not seeing where that's the case here.

Like the TV thing, if CSIL was going on and on about how TV is the work of the devil and how much better off her kids were or whatever, I'd see what you mean.

But, based on what's been presented it seemed like CSIL was doing what she always does (and maybe being thougtless or ill-mannered), but not anything to "deliberately annoy" MSIL.
post #137 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey's mom View Post
I think you are making a lot of assumptions and embellishments about what happened or what might have happened and drawing conclusions based on them.

I don't know where Maya stated anyone had "an adult temper tantrum," that children were "running the house" at 10 at night, etc.

Perhaps easier to stick to "the facts" and draw our conclusions from there. ?? Maybe? Makes it easier to discuss, it seems.

eta: directed towards mahrphkjh, not the above.
no, the exact story was that for several years MSIL allowed CSIL's children to come and go at the adult's only party because she felt that they were too young to expect to be away from mom and mom definitely wasn't asking them to stay away. Last year when the youngest was 6 and was interupting adults at the party MSIL finally told CSIL that the children were no longer allowed to come and go and must stay upstairs at their own party. At this point CSIL left the party NOT TO BE WITH HER CHILDREN but to hide out in her room while her children attended the children's party by themselves. THIS is an adult's temper tantrum which is what illicited the "adult's must attend" email and all subsequent rules. Until this point MSIL had allowed all disruptions to her home and disregards to her wishes.

In addition, Maya did say that CSIL did not have bed times for her children which was why MSIL made the rule that all children must be in their room at a certain time at night (see previous thread).
post #138 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey's mom View Post
You think CSIL is trying to purposfully annoy MSIL?
Yes, in certain areas I do believe her behavior is purposefully antagonistic. Telling your children in front of their aunt that they don't have to listen to her and clean up IN HER HOME is either completely OBSTUSE in etiquette or undermining to the hostess to prove that your parenting style is better and more important that her wishes.
post #139 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by emmabelle View Post
The kids had a great time... The neice actually did try new foods and (shocker) liked them! Has anyone stopped to think that maybe CSIL isnt allowing her kids to branch out and try new things? If she had brought pb&j with to the resturant, the child would not have tried, and enjoyed, shrimp. Now maybe the neice will feel confident and comfortable trying new things in the future.
reading the OP carefully, I picked up on one child not eating anything but rice at the restaurant...correct me if I'm wrong maya... that doesn't sound "great" to me...

absolutely, I think CSIL is making an error by basically encouraging her children to be picky. then again- they're her kids- that's totally her prerogative. it is not right for someone to override the judgment of the parents to try and break bad habits or "fix" other issues in children who are guests in their home JUST as the adults are. control issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey's mom View Post
I think pretty much EVERYONE here thinks that CSIL isn't allowing her kids to branch out and try new things.

Just as I wouldn't think it was OK for someone to tell a formula feeding mother that she had to bf in my home, or a family who used a crib that they had to co-sleep in my home, or that a family couldn't put their baby in a swing for extended periods but had to sling them.

.
exactly. though, I might pick the baby up and sling it myself
post #140 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey's mom View Post
Just as I wouldn't think it was OK for someone to tell a formula feeding mother that she had to bf in my home, or a family who used a crib that they had to co-sleep in my home, or that a family couldn't put their baby in a swing for extended periods but had to sling them.

Just b/c we believe that bfing, co-sleeping, and babywearing are ideal, and just b/c their baby would probably be happier co-sleeping, etc. for the week in my house, does not change the fact that I would be imposing MY parenting agenda on another family.
Actually, in your home you could argue for family members to co-sleep on the grounds that letting their baby CIO is disrupting to your children and your sleep. The same could be said if you did not have a swing or room for one. Formula feeding would be difficult because you can't tell a woman to relactate for a week visit but besides that the extra dishes and mess could be an argument against bottles.

Most, not all, of MSIL's rules regarded disruptions to her home by CSIL's parenting style. I will agree that the mandatory party attendence was only a means of "getting back" at CSIL for her behavior from the previous year and the PB was probably partly idealogy and partly the means by which CSIL expressed herself but beyond that the rest of the rules were what everyone else had to follow and made the MSIL's house run more smoothly for herself and everyone else.

Remember every year MSIL has to open her home to 15+ people and knows every year that 5 members will be running the house to THEIR specifications. That is as stressful at having to go to someone's house out of your own environment.
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