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When someone regrets circ...  

post #1 of 71
Thread Starter 
I cant help feeling the way that I do. I wish that I didnt feel this way...
but when someone has their child circumcised and they feel just oh so guilty about doing it I cant help but feel for the child and not the parent. I cant offer very much support to the mother because I am too busy feeling terrible for the little boy that he went through so much pain. This makes me angry at the parents. I wish I could be more supportive but I cant seem to get to that point.
Does this seem wrong? Is there anything anyone can say to me to give me a better perspective on this?
post #2 of 71
I feel most sorry for the boy as well. If the parents had the boy circed without knowing and the advice they got from Dr or whoever said it was right then I feel horrible for them.

I am having a hard day today on this issue. 2 threads have really put me in a really low mood today
post #3 of 71
My son is circed & I feel insanely guilty. But the guilt I feel pales in comparison to the heartache that comes from knowing the pain & torture that my son endured because of my ignorance. I don't expect anyone to feel bad for *me* - ever. I'm just glad that I know better now & will never let it happen to another one of my children. I can't turn back time, now. But I sure can yap to anyone who brings up the topic of circ as to why it's a huge mistake.
post #4 of 71
I guess what bothers me about it is that 9 times out of 10, they feel guilty because they literally had no idea what circumcision entailed, or what is lost during it. I understand that doctors give misinformation and so on & so forth, but it annoys me that many times, parents spend more time researching what sort of stroller to buy than they do researching a surgery that removes part of their newborn's penis. That's probably why I have a hard time mustering up much sympathy.
post #5 of 71
When I circumcised my first son, I truly had no idea that it was something that was optional. I was young. I lived in a place with a NINETY percent circ rate. My (ex) pediatrician never said that it wasn't recommended by the APA, nor did he discuss the risks, or discuss the fact that it was cosmetic surgery. I just had no idea.

When he was a bit older, I started finding out more about circumcision and I was heartbroken. Absolutely ripped apart for, literally, months. I cried at diaper changes. I wasn't upset for me--I was horrified at what I'd done to my child. My heart was aching for what he'd gone through, and for what he lost.

To be quite honest, *your* judgement/lack of support/etc wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference to me because I was wracked with guilt and pain for what I'd done to my child. And I'd never have expected sympathy for me to begin with. My son was the victim of my poor choice.

I know better, now, and I made different choices when my other children were born. Truthfully, I'm glad for what I went through after the choice I made--it erased any possibility of that 'well, the first one's cut so the rest might as well match' mentality. But some mothers don't get to that point right away. When I'm talking to other mothers, I work really hard to not come from a judgmental place because I want women to be open to the information that I'm able to give them.

If you're really interested in changing your perspective, then maybe you ought to focus on doing what you can to make those mothers feel supported, so that they'll be open to information that will help them make better choices in the future. The only other option is to judge and alienate, and who are we helping then?
post #6 of 71
Vermontgirl, I certainly understand your feelings. My twin boys are 12 years old, and without any research at all, DH and I felt that circumcision was unnecessary cosmetic surgery - a social tradition that we did not feel the need to perpetuate. So I have a hard time relating to folks who "never gave it a second thought".

At the same time, I have nothing but respect and compassion for parents who circumcise their sons, and later admit that they made a mistake. So many parents circumcise and never give it a second thought - EVER. They refuse to learn about what they did, and get extremely defensive if anyone questions their actions.

So when a parent who could just as easily cling to their reasons for circumcising (whatever they might be) takes the huge step of admitting that circumcision is WRONG, not just to themselves but to strangers on the Internet, I can't help but admire their courage and strength.

My sons are intact, and I never considered circumcision. I can lecture about it until I'm blue in the face, but I don't think my words have nearly the impact as those from a parent who says "I did it, and I wish I didn't".

As far as I'm concerned, those who circumcised their sons and regret it are our loudest and strongest voice.
post #7 of 71
I have no idea if it's normal that I came to the conclusion to not circ (b/c I am the type to research things and learn about them, and not just strollers and bedding sets! I hear ya on that type of parent to be!) or if I was just d@amn lucky that I stumbled upon mothering and the CAC forum. But I can tell you that the info out there is so skewed, even some parents who THINK they've researched it can be mislead by the really awful info out there. But I still totally get this. I still wonder how you could decide to do this even with the skewed info. And I still feel more for the kid than the parent.
post #8 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by vermontgirl View Post
I cant help feeling the way that I do. I wish that I didnt feel this way...
You can help the way you feel. You can work on understanding where the feelings come from and then go from there. You can try to understand the perspective of those who have made the choice to circ without the knowledge it was an option. You have the ability to change your views towards mothers like myself....you choose not to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vermontgirl
but when someone has their child circumcised and they feel just oh so guilty about doing it I cant help but feel for the child and not the parent. I cant offer very much support to the mother because I am too busy feeling terrible for the little boy that he went through so much pain. This makes me angry at the parents. I wish I could be more supportive but I cant seem to get to that point.
I honestly don't know what to tell you about being more supportive. You choose to shut the parent off, then you choose to shut off the possibility that they may change their stance on circ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vermontgirl
Does this seem wrong? Is there anything anyone can say to me to give me a better perspective on this?
Yes, this seems 100% wrong. You have to willing to change your perspective and be willing to hear what others have to say if you want a better perspective on the topic.
post #9 of 71
I really understand how you feel. I feel so much sadness for the little boy in such a situation, and I just want to lash out at the people who are responsible for his pain. It's a gut reaction, even while knowing intellectually that it's not that simple. And not wanting to add to their pain, even though I am angry. So I fall back on "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."
post #10 of 71
Vermontgirl~ you did the same thing I did! I needed to come vent too.... I wish it were normal to come to that conclusion... I don't think it is in American Society. I don't think it is because we have so much false information fed to us and the information we need is buried. My issue is actually when someone tries to makes the parent feel better by saying it does not effect them and its no big deal... How upset would we be if you heard that a parent stopped breastfeeding at 4 weeks and started giving cow's milk or something and then said it wasn't a big deal? I'm just saying...

I mean, I truly know the parent is in pain over hurting their child but that is something that they can't get back later so it just makes me so incredibly sad... But a parent who has regrets can make an awesome advocate if they educate themselves. And they can teach their sons and maybe we can end the cycle.... :
post #11 of 71
I would feel very sympathetic for the parent. Very horrible to have to live with that guilt. And I would give them kudos for seeing their wrong, and changing it for future sons, and also speaking their new knowledge to other parents, helping to educate people.

I've been in enough other parenting situations to where I wish I would have handled situations better, so I'm humble in the judging.

Unfortunately, pro-circ parents are only a small part of the problem with circ-ing today.."educated" health professionals advocate, encourage, perpetuate, and perform this terrible procedure and they to be addressed to make all RIC illegal in this country. Health care reform is in need more than anything, IMO.

I do think it's wrong and cruel to judge parents for making this mistake in which they deeply regret and repent. I have seen many instances in which a parent who has circ'ed and realized their mistake become the biggest advocates against circ, and I think little boys in our country need them. Therefore we should encourage and support them, not ostracize and judge them.
post #12 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassandra M. View Post
I would feel very sympathetic for the parent. Very horrible to have to live with that guilt. And I would give them kudos for seeing their wrong, and changing it for future sons, and also speaking their new knowledge to other parents, helping to educate people.

I've been in enough other parenting situations to where I wish I would have handled situations better, so I'm humble in the judging.

Unfortunately, pro-circ parents are only a small part of the problem with circ-ing today.."educated" health professionals advocate, encourage, perpetuate, and perform this terrible procedure and they to be addressed to make all RIC illegal in this country. Health care reform is in need more than anything, IMO.

I do think it's wrong and cruel to judge parents for making this mistake in which they deeply regret and repent. I have seen many instances in which a parent who has circ'ed and realized their mistake become the biggest advocates against circ, and I think little boys in our country need them. Therefore we should encourage and support them, not ostracize and judge them.
While I totally understand what you're saying, and basically agree with all of it, the way I feel about it internally is quite different than what my external reaction might be.
While I can usually encourage and support a parent when they realize they have done wrong in circing, internally, I'm thinking that a mistake is snapping at your toddler, forgetting to put a hat on your baby when i's colder than you thought outside...circumcision is far, far worse than a "mistake".
post #13 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassandra M. View Post
I do think it's wrong and cruel to judge parents for making this mistake in which they deeply regret and repent. I have seen many instances in which a parent who has circ'ed and realized their mistake become the biggest advocates against circ, and I think little boys in our country need them. Therefore we should encourage and support them, not ostracize and judge them.

:
post #14 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassandra M. View Post
I do think it's wrong and cruel to judge parents for making this mistake in which they deeply regret and repent. I have seen many instances in which a parent who has circ'ed and realized their mistake become the biggest advocates against circ, and I think little boys in our country need them. Therefore we should encourage and support them, not ostracize and judge them.

post #15 of 71
One of the things that has helped me is becoming friends IRL with several mamas who circed one or more boys, and realizing what wonderful, awesome, loving mamas they are. Better than I am in many ways at being gentle and present with their children (I am very easily distracted by things that I want to do rather than being present in the moment with my children). Honestly, I have nothing but compassion for these mamas because they honestly, truly didn't know any better, got crappy advice (or the "it's a personal choice") line from doctors, and had dhs who wanted boys to "look like them." I can understand where they were and how they got to the position of circing, because honestly, in our culture it's so normal and so accepted that it's like vaccines -- it's a "health" decision that everyone accepts as necessary.

I also try to be humble because I recogize that there but for the grace of God go I -- my father was circed as an adult in the military during the Viet Nam War, before I was born, so all I knew growing up was that foreskins were dirty and dangerous. I had sex with one intact man once before marrying dh, but it was with a condom, so I wasn't even aware until later that he was intact. Circ was my normal. I am so thankful I found MDC and this forum while I was pregnant with ds, or otherwise I too might have been in the ranks of "circed and regret it" today.

The mothers who get the truth on circ but do it anyway, like my SIL? Screw 'em, they don't get my compassion (or my forgiveness). But mamas like those who posted in the sticky, or my friends, whom I KNOW are wonderful, loving mamas who would do anything in their power to go back and undo their sons' circ? I can support them. Yes, it's their sons who suffered, but they suffer too.
post #16 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamohumm6 View Post
I'm thinking that a mistake is snapping at your toddler, forgetting to put a hat on your baby when i's colder than you thought outside...circumcision is far, far worse than a "mistake".
Well, they weren't operating under the same knowledge that you have or that they have now. They live in a country in which health care professionals minimize the effects and overemphasis on supposed benefits of circ, so they are led to naively believe they are offering a benefit to their son.
The people who ARE educated and HAVE seen circ done before, who still advocate for it are the ones I can't understand. I can't wrap my mind around the idea of doctors who KNOW this isn't a necessary procedure, and watch the newborns in pain going through it, who still perform it for the sake of $.
post #17 of 71
I feel sympathy for the moms because my own mom was like that. She circed my brother in 1976 and never questioned it, but then he was brought back to her screaming in a way no newborn should scream. He cried at every diaper change and she knew she would never put another baby through that.

She is a proud intactivist now, she left my second brother alone in 1983 and worked hard to protect him from being retracted. My second brother is an intactivist too, he calls it "our cause" and will talk to anyone about growing up intact. I feel for my mom, she regrets having my 1st bro circed so much. She didn`t even care if there were any "benefits" to circing, she knew in the 80`s that most of the world was intact & my dad agreed, saying
"circumcision defies all logic."
post #18 of 71
I struggle with this sometimes, too (not regarding circumcision, but other things), so I think I understand where you're coming from. It's hard to feel compassion for someone if you think "they should have known better". But in our society, it's hard for parents-to-be to even get to the point where they realize they don't know much (or anything) about circumcision, and you can't educate yourself if you don't know you're ignorant. Sometimes when I have a hard time sympathizing with someone, I try to remind myself that regardless of how they got in pain, they are in pain. And really, when it comes down to it, suffering is suffering. If a person is suffering because of a choice they made and now regret, they probably feel even worse than the person who's suffering and doesn't carry that self-blame. We don't have to think a person "deserves" our compassion to give it to them anyway, KWIM? We can strive to have compassion for their pain even if we don't understand their actions. I try to think of compassion for suffering as something I do just because it's right, like not lying. When I'm doing it for me, because I believe it's important and makes me a better person and the world a better place, then it doesn't matter whether the person has "earned" it.
post #19 of 71
I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but in response to the OP:

Non-consentual, non-medically indicated genital cutting hurts everyone it touches. It causes mothers to set aside their fierce protective instincts, and often also causes intense grief and heartache. It often causes otherwise loving and intelligent fathers to insist their son's 'match'. It eats away at the consciences of medical professionals. It irreversibly damages the primary sex organ of over half of male, American babies.

I told a story in another thread about how I inadvertantly left a spice jar of cayenne pepper out on the counter one night after cooking dinner and didn't realize it until the next day when my son's screams caused my body to shudder. He's found the cayenne pepper, opened it, and poured it into a pile on the kitchen floor and then played with/in it, and you guessed it-rubbed his eyes. I rushed him to the bathroom and rinsed him with water, I was so panicked, I rinsed his entire head and his look of terror from having water sprayed over his head and face as he held his breath still haunts me. I worried I'd damaged him for ever...worried he'd be blind...called the ped, whose nurse was reassuring. He didn't require a trip to the ER, but he was traumatized by the experience and was fearful of even having his hair washed for many months.

Fortunately, he's okay now. I don't think he consciously remembers it. His vision isn't effected, and he's back to loving his baths and usually lets me wash his hair without freaking out. I know what happened was my fault. I acknowledge I was careless, even neglectful to have let him stray from my sight although it only took a moment. I still get a knot in the pit of my stomach thinking about it though.

How much worse would I feel if permanent harm-true damage-had come to him? Thankfully, most of us can't fathom that kind of guilt...but we can try to understand it and be sensitive to it.

Certainly, the boy is the one who suffered direct physical pain and loss and he deserves our sadness and compassion but there are moments and intensities of remorse, guilt, and grief that can make parents literally sick with heartache. I think they deserve our compassion too. What they didn't know did hurt their child, and there is no way to turn back time, no way to take it back or reverse it.

The circumcision issue issue is wrought with cultural misperceptions, myths, and misinformation. Parents rely on care providers to be honest with them and to provide them with unbiased, balanced, and truthful information. Sure, they could have (and should have) researched the topic independently and more thoroughly...but circumcision is just so d-mn culturally engrained, still so automatic and assumed: "It's more hygienic. Dad's circed, baby should be too. Better now than later."

Those of us who learned about circumcision before the birth of our son(s) often take our fortune for granted; most parents know disturbingly little about the anatomy & physiology of the foreskin, the mechanics of normal intercourse, the circumcision procedure, it's risks, and it's long-term effects. Think back to how you stumbled across the truth. Were you shocked? Horrified? Outraged? Those reactions only result from learning something profoundly disturbing...a surprising, terrible, widespread secret.

Those of us who learned the truth in time to protect our sons are so, so, so lucky...because it easily could have been one of us who trusted our care provider and circumcised based on inadaquate or inaccurate information or ignorantly succumed to pressures from other directions.

When I read the words of a regretful mother who's hurting, that's what I think: It could have been me. It could have happened to my son. When I think of it that way, I feel sadness rather than judgment and compassion rather than anger---for everyone, all the way around.

The entire situation is tragic.

"You do what you know, and when you know better, you do better."
-Maya Angelou

Parents who circumcised and later learn the truth and process the guilt and grief make some of the most experienced, passionate, and effective intactivists.

Jen
post #20 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by St. Margaret View Post
But I can tell you that the info out there is so skewed, even some parents who THINK they've researched it can be mislead by the really awful info out there.
Very true.

Most contemporary pregnancy books have little if anything to say, and if they do they are more often then not moderately pro (written by Americans with circumcised sons themselves, or who actually perform the procedure) or extremely, confusingly wishy-washy.

If a parent looks to the internet, they'll find different types of websites depending on the terms they search for...and could easily end up on Morris's or Schoen's websites or (irclist.

And, let's be honest---pregnancy and childbirth are riddled with decisions and choices from what brand of carseat to buy, what interventions to avoid or accept, learning about feeding options, etc. A large percentage of mothers these days also work outside the home and the 40ish weeks of pregnancy can just fly by...

I'm really not trying to excuse circumcising parents, just trying to provide additional insight into why the circumcision issue so rarely gets the attention it deserves.

Jen
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