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When someone regrets circ... - Page 3

post #41 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdx.mothernurture View Post
I also think consent forms for all sorts of things are thrust on women in the hospital, either during labor or afterwards, when they're exausted, hormonal, recovering from blood loss and in many cases have pain medications in their systems. Circumcision may not even be presented as an option in some cases, more like, "Sign here for the circumcision." or, "The circumcision will be done tomorrow morning." Automatic. Assumed. Expected. Completely routine.

Jen
you just described my experience-which I regret every 2 hours when I change a diaper, even when it's not changed I think about it. My son smiles at me like I'm the greatest person on the earth to him and I still feel like a crappy mother.
I don't want sympathy-I want more information to arm myself with to defend myself and the next boy with the next time around.
post #42 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueStateMama View Post
I wasn't some half-assed parent who lovingly researched strollers but made an educated decision to alter my son's genitals.

That is a good quote.
post #43 of 71
I think the mamas here on MDC are the exception to the rule...

I am out and about advocating for genital integrity IRL and on other more mainstream boards. I know that ALOT of mothers I have come across have the info and really don't care. They have no regrets, think it's a good idea and will do it again. Some even find the subject humorous: .

I still have difficulty with the fact that ANYONE educated on the subject or not wouldn't question the fact that someone was going to take thier perfect newborn son and sugically alter their genitals and without at least saying WTF????
post #44 of 71
Is it? Out of context it sounds awful to me. Without the rest of the post it seems way too flippant to convey something I take so seriously....

Makes sense within the body of my words, but just sounds wrong alone.:

(ETA - I was referring to ndunn's quote of mine, not the above poster...darn quote features and all)
post #45 of 71
To the OP, do you feel contempt and anger for Marilyn Milos, the founder of NOCIRC? She circumcised both her sons before she knew the truth. I think it is awful to feel contempt for regretful parents. NON-regretful parents? Sure, I can understand that. But why would you feel anger for a parent who bravely admits what they did was wrong? Circumcising my first son was the worst thing I have ever done and it is something I regret daily. Unless you have been in our shoes, you could never imagine the horror and grief that a parent feels when they've realized what they allowed to be done to their precious baby. I don't think showing compassion to regretful parents in any way minimizes the pain, torture and loss the child has experienced. For those of you who want to stay angry at regretful parents, I think you should be ashamed of yourselves. I would write more but one of my babies is waking up.

I just wanted to add that I really appreciate the comments of Jen, and the others who are compassionate to mamas who regret circumcising. I used to feel like the CAC was a safe haven for mamas like me, like we were all on the same team. Now I realize that some view us as outsiders, like we don't belong. I do have an intact son, does that win me any points? It is a good thing I don't need the CAC forum to be an intactivist and it's a good thing I am doing things in my daily life to educate people about the truths and horror of circumcision. I really don't have any desire to be an active part of a forum like this anymore, where there are mamas who would actually start a thread saying they don't have compassion for mothers who regret circumcising. How insensitive can you be, really?
post #46 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueStateMama View Post
Is it? Out of context it sounds awful to me. Without the rest of the post it seems way too flippant to convey something I take so seriously....

Makes sense within the body of my words, but just sounds wrong alone.:

(ETA - I was referring to ndunn's quote of mine, not the above poster...darn quote features and all)
Whops, I thought it said "un" educated!!

So if it said uneducated, then yes I do think its a good quote.
post #47 of 71
But for the grace of God, there go I.


At least those parents are learning from their mistakes.

And my quote is one reason you should feel some sympathy for the mother.
post #48 of 71
For me it's a really complicated thing. I am (angrily) mutilated myself, so it's a really emotionally involved thing for me.

If a parent regrets circing their son (for the right reasons, anyway), I find myself being far less angry with them. In most cases, there's no anger at all. But that's about it.
I don't think I ever really feel bad for the parents. I just stop being angry at them. I feel very bad for the son.

I should probably work at being more supportive of the parents. Not in a, "Oh, what you did wasn't really all that bad," sort of way, since that would be out right lying, and I'm just not that into lying. But in a, "Here's some hugs," sort of way. And in a, "Here's some things you can do that might help you feel better," sort of way.

I'm certainly not saying that my lack of sympathy is the right thing. It's not. But as I said... it's pretty emotionally involved for me.
post #49 of 71
I must say, I didnt know anything about circ and it was pure luck that my son was not circ'd, since my insurance doesnt cover it. It was pure ignorance and I am sure that it is the same for others, esp if they are from an older generation. Yes, it isnt really a great excuse, but its true. Even when I was born (I'm 25) practically every baby boy was circ'd and I am sure it was pretty much done without a thought, just like smacking the baby on the butt while holding them upside down and performing surgery without pain management (course most parents didnt appreciate the latter one) Shoot, some parents even said no and it was still done, like in my dh's case.
Now, when I was pregnant with my first, I was 18, single mom, I couldnt even find his dad, and I came from a family with all women. I have never known my own father. I had no grandfather anymore. So yeah, I did read some stuff. I had mothering-but there were no articles on circ while I was reading. I had no net, so no coming across it there. I hadnt ever even noticed if the guys I had been with were circ'd because it had NEVER ever been discussed in our home. So I went to the OB, to WIC, to welfare, to school, I was in a teen pregnancy class in high school. No one-NO ONE-ever said a word about circ. No one asked if I was going to do it (I knew I was having a boy from about week 18 on), no one said anything, positive or negative, about it. So, I was in labor, having hard induced contrax, and the nurse asks oh, btw, are you having your son circ'd? I said I dont know, I hadnt thought of it, and my mom-my only support person at the time-says oh you should its better and it doesnt hurt (she was an LPN and assisted at circs). So I said ok, sure. Like so many, I thought it was just a little piece of skin. Now, had someone said something, ANYTHING, I absolutely would have done the research. But no one did. Even the baby book I had (not sure which one now) didnt have a word about it. Thank goodness that it wasnt covered-that right there made me change my mind!!! I am sure that the mamas on here that circ'd previously feel horribly for their child(ren) and that they are not asking for pitty for themselves. However, all of the parents here should be praised-because they know now that it is wrong and are fighting to stop it.
post #50 of 71
A couple of thoughts:

I was in a drawing class this last term, and the (awesome) instructor brought up the four stages of learning. I had not heard of these before, but after having heard them they absolutely make sense to me:

1) You don't know that you don't know.
2) You know that you don't know.
3) You know that you know.
4) You don't know that you know.

I'm pretty sure most of the parents that circ fall under the first stage: they don't know that they don't know. It never occurs to them to research the issue beyond what they've already been told because they don't realize there is anything more to know.

I think many parents, if they get to stage 2, would definitely research the issue. It's just that most never get there.

I think the longer I know about circumcision, the harder it is for me to recall that there was a time when I didn't know about it--when I thought it was normal and routine.


The second thing I want to bring up is this: I think it's really natural to want to find a specific person to blame for things. I think it's just human nature. When bad s**t happens, we want someone to blame. But unfortunately, that isn't always right. Often, it just doesn't make sense.

I know that's the case with me. I want someone to blame for my mutilation. My mom seemed the one at fault, so the blame went to her. It still does.
I'm angry at her. I see her as being at fault. I want to be angry at her. Because if not her, then who? The "medical community"? That's not very specific. And it's certainly not something I can exact revenge on (another very human thing to want to do).
Do I want to hurt my mom for what I feel she did to me? Hell yes. There are times when I seriously want to do everything I can to rip our relationship to shreds, because I know that would hurt her greatly. Probably worse than anything else I could do.

Does she deserve any of this? Is she really the one to blame? Is there even a specific person to blame at all?

No.

But even though I intellectually know that, it's still difficult as hell for me to work through it. A large part of me doesn't even want to work through it. So even just convincing myself to try is an effort in itself.
Honestly, the very thought that there isn't a specific person for me to blame pisses me off to no end.

I dunno exactly where I'm going with this. But I guess the bottom line is that circumcision is a really cultural thing, and unfortunately that makes "blame" a very diffuse concept, that often can't be exacted on a specific person. Are there some cases where we can place the blame squarely? Sure. If a parent has been informed, and still does it, then they are absolutely to blame.

But what about the parents that didn't even know that they didn't know? What about these regretful mothers? Do they deserve my wrath or blame? Do they deserve yours?

Nope.

But it sure is tempting. Blame always is. I want someone to be angry at.
Maybe if we can get past our desire (need?) to blame someone, then we can really start to make progress.

Believe me, I'm probably more pissed off about circumcision than a good deal of the people here on these forums. And being a royally pissed off circumcised guy, I have extremely personal issues intertwined with the whole thing.

If I can see how unproductive the blame game is--even if I hate to admit it--then surely anyone else here can.
post #51 of 71
Thanks Jen, for your post - and Blarg, thanks for yours - it really saddens me to see the blame game being played here with regretful parents.

I would echo what others have said, 'There, but for the grace of God, go I'.

I HATE circumcision. It makes me break out into a cold sweat (and tears) at the thought of that happening to a child of mine.

But I used to be in the 'don't know that I don't know' stage.

A friend of mine and I were pregnant with our first children at the same time. We both ended up having girls, but she asked me while we were pregnant if we would circ a boy.

I told her that no, we wouldn't circ a boy - but that was just my blind good luck, having married an intact Brit and living in the UK, where circ is unheard of.

My friend then told me that they had decided to circ, even though she'd talked to her OB (who would do the circ) and he told her that he didnt' believe in using any pain relief. She said that made her uncomfortable, but they still felt that circ was 'right for their child'.

And what did I say to her about it?

A BIG FAT NOTHING. She told me that she planned to have her child circed without anesthesia, and I said nothing.

I really can't even fathom that now, and I'm intensely ashamed of myself now, when I think back.

But I didn't know - I didn't know that circ was a bad thing. It was something that had been done to my brothers and all my male cousins - every male I knew was circed, and they were all 'fine' - doctors did it in hospitals, and they wouldn't do anything awful to babies, would they? Etc, etc.

I want to believe - with all my heart - that I never would have circed a child of mine under any circumstances. But when I think back to my lack of reaction to my friend's comment, I know that I can't know that for sure.

I was just very, very lucky.

My heart aches for moms here who were not as lucky. I cannot imagine living with the regret of having allowed someone to harm my child.

I truly believe that circumcision harms everyone - and that the parents are victims, as well as the child. It is a pervasive, evil thing in our society, and we should feel compassion for everyone it touches...men, their parents, their partners, everyone.

I also want to thank those mothers who have posted on the 'regret' thread - your bravery and compassion for other mothers and their babies is an inspiration to me. And I'm sure that you have saved more babies than you know (I always link to that thread when sharing information about circ with expectant parents).
post #52 of 71
Blarg, I just wanted to say that I do understand your anger toward your mom all too well.
While I always considered to be a pretty girl, I have always been embarrassed about my teeth—they are yellow (very yellow even though I have always been brushing them like crazy). And my mom always used to say that instead of taking her beautiful white teeth I took my father's yellow (very “nice” of her…like I had a choice : ). And my father was smoking all his life since he was a kid, so most likely this was the reason for his teeth being yellow, not a genetic. But I did buy this “dad’s teeth bs” and I never even thought to question it.
Anyway, just about a week ago my dh and I were reading a book “How to raise a healthy child in spite of your doctor” and guess what I have learned! One of the side affects of antibiotic called tetracycline is making teeth permanently yellow! I was so mad : : : !
My mom was a nurse (actually, more than a nurse; there is no such thing here, but in Russia where I’m from there is a profession which is sort of more than a nurse but less than a doctor) and she would start a full course of tetracycline every time I’d get sick (or pretend to be sick to not go to school like many kids did). When I learned the true reason of my teeth being so yellow I was so unbelievably angry with my mom! I understand that she just didn’t know any better, that this is just what they learned in medical school and what doctors prescribed back then, but it still doesn’t make me feel any less angry with her! She said that back then they believed that antibiotics need to be given to prevent the complications from colds, flues, etc. (such as ear infection). But knowing my logic and the way I think, I’m sure that if I were her, even if doctors did prescribe it to kids and there was no such a thing as internet to seek for the info, I’d still use my logic and common sense. I’m sure I’d think “Ok, so if complications can be treated by antibiotics, then I’ll just do that if complications do arise, but not just in case”. Why in the world she didn't have enough of brain to think that way?!

My point is that there is always a way to think, to use your own brain to question things that don’t seem to make sense even if this is the way everyone around does it. However, it’s definitely always easier to do what doctor says as doing something different puts a lot of responsibilities on parents…
Sorry, just had to vent. As I said I found out that I wasn’t born with yellow teeth and that it was my mom who has done it to me just about a week ago, so I’m still pretty emotional about this whole thing…
Yulia.

PS. By the way, the book says “If a doctor prescribed tetracycline to a child under 7y.o. leave the office immediately!” Evidently, this is a horrible antibiotic to give to a kid, it has alot of very serious side affects and I was getting TONS of it…thanks mom…
post #53 of 71
Sorry, off topic but Yulia~ I have a Jonah too! Born June 8 2006 :
post #54 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
Sorry, off topic but Yulia~ I have a Jonah too! Born June 8 2006 :
I think we both have great taste !
post #55 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by gemelos View Post
To the OP, do you feel contempt and anger for Marilyn Milos, the founder of NOCIRC? She circumcised both her sons before she knew the truth. I think it is awful to feel contempt for regretful parents. NON-regretful parents? Sure, I can understand that. But why would you feel anger for a parent who bravely admits what they did was wrong? Circumcising my first son was the worst thing I have ever done and it is something I regret daily. Unless you have been in our shoes, you could never imagine the horror and grief that a parent feels when they've realized what they allowed to be done to their precious baby. I don't think showing compassion to regretful parents in any way minimizes the pain, torture and loss the child has experienced. For those of you who want to stay angry at regretful parents, I think you should be ashamed of yourselves. I would write more but one of my babies is waking up.

I just wanted to add that I really appreciate the comments of Jen, and the others who are compassionate to mamas who regret circumcising. I used to feel like the CAC was a safe haven for mamas like me, like we were all on the same team. Now I realize that some view us as outsiders, like we don't belong. I do have an intact son, does that win me any points? It is a good thing I don't need the CAC forum to be an intactivist and it's a good thing I am doing things in my daily life to educate people about the truths and horror of circumcision. I really don't have any desire to be an active part of a forum like this anymore, where there are mamas who would actually start a thread saying they don't have compassion for mothers who regret circumcising. How insensitive can you be, really?

Seriously, she was asking how to change the way she feels. She said she wished she didn't, and asked for some perspective.
post #56 of 71
My mom had two friends over to her house to watch some educational videos on circ. One was preg with a boy, the other recently had her newborn boy circed...

Watching the video of the circ made the mom who just had that done to her baby cry. She honest to goodness had no idea how brutal this procedure is, and that it is completely unnecessary. She did not have access to certain luxuries during her pregnancy that I tend to take for granted, like net access, that might have helped her get the info she needed on this issue. She would never do this to another son. Her dh is even interested in restoring now! I feel terribly for her, her dh, and of course her son.

On the other hand, the other mom, the one preg with a boy is still planning to circ She is in a place where she knows better, so even though her dh chooses to remain ignorant (he refuses to watch the videos, and said "anything that is good enough for me is good enough for my son" ), she can still make the choice to save her son. She even got to see first hand just how bad a mom who made this mistake feels, and she is still choosing not to protect her son. I'm sorry if this sounds cruel, but if she wants a pity party after the birth for circing, she's not going to be getting one from us.

So I guess my point is, if you know better and do it anyway (and really, you should know better once you've found your way to mothering!) no sympathy here. But my heart goes out to those who found this info too late to protect their own sons. (Of course opting to remain ignorant when someone is trying to share this info is a whole other story!)
post #57 of 71
Well, I gave her my perspective. I think a thread like this, with the wording she chose, was insensitive. It is like kicking someone when they are down. With sarcastic wording such as "parents who feel oh so guilty..." Come on! It takes some very thick skin to be an active member in this forum if you have circumcised sons and threads like this are sometimes just a little too much to bear.
post #58 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamohumm6 View Post
Seriously, she was asking how to change the way she feels. She said she wished she didn't, and asked for some perspective.
That's how interpreted. Glad it wasn't just me. Almost went back to reread the whole thing to make sure.

check post 24 gemelos. Jen did help her....

Gemelos~I'm going to pm you something...
post #59 of 71
Thread Starter 
I definately didnt intend to make anyone feel bad. This post was primarily for some advice. Jen was VERY helpful.
I have a complete right to be bitter feeling towards parents who circ their sons-I just need to learn to be more eloquent, support others and perhaps understand where everyone is coming from. Everyones suffering should be considered. There is a big difference between a parent who intentionally circs their child knowing the pain they are causing and a parent who has no clue and feels terrible afterward. Part of me still blames them because I feel that they should have researched it. How can you NOT research a procedure in which a part of your newborns body is surgically removed? I dont understand it but I suppose I dont have to understand. I am VERY thankful that I knew not to circumcise Harvest. I can imagine that the pain of finding out what you have done to your child is immense. I know someone who had her first son circumcised but not her second. She is apologetic about it almost everytime she changes his diaper. It is so terrible that she has to live her life feeling that way-but maybe that is her punishment for allowing her son to be mutilated without a second thought.
post #60 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by vermontgirl View Post
How can you NOT research a procedure in which a part of your newborns body is surgically removed?
Honestly? Probably the same way most parents consent to allowing their child's flesh to be punctured and chemicals injected (vaccination) without doing much-if any-research. That's one routine parenting choice I made without being fully educated myself. When the standard American consensus is that the foreskin is just a tiny flap of skin and circumcision is a quick and virtually painless "little snip" it's often not even perceived by parents as "surgery"...kwim? On mainstream boards, I've seen some ignorant parents go so far as to compare it to trimming fingernails or a haircut.

Jen
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