Scheduling and Lactivism

[elanorh]

My SIL is expecting this spring and is planning to breastfeed. We don't know how long or how deep her commitment is (she thought we were insane to do an Elimination Diet with Ina, and to bf beyond a year) .... she is planning on returning to work FT when babe is 8 weeks old, too, and that coupled with her personality makes us worry that she will wean at that point. Adamantly opposed to cosleeping, and several friends who are heavily into scheduling.

So .... I'm putting together a "Breastfeeding Survival" package with breastpads, good milk bags (I liked the Gerber ones when I was WOH and pumping), lansinoh, and some books (The No Cry Sleep Solution, Our Babies, Ourselves, and So That's What They're For!) .... printing out the ezzoinfo brochure about the AAP and Ezzo and the risks of babytraining, the "If you Breastfeed for a day, your baby ..." handout, etc.

As I'm doing so, I keep thinking about the pressure to schedule feedings, naps, etc. which so many moms have -- I think a lot of it comes from our formula history but also I think a big part of it is mothers who need to return to work outside the home, who usually are expected back to work by 6 or 8 weeks postpartum (And what bf baby has settled into a routine at six weeks? Not mine!) ....

I think a barrier which some women have against initiating breastfeeding, or against breastfeeding for more than a few weeks, is their perception/expectation that babies NEED to be on a "schedule" [especially if mom is returning to work, but even with SAHM as well especially if she's not comfortable NIP]. Compound it with the fact that bf babies should be fed on demand, and ff'd babies are supposedly able to go longer between feedings (and societally, the expectation is that ff baby behavior is "normal" and desirable) .....

So my question is - what's the best way to resolve the concern?
A. Assure mom that baby will settle into a routine on his/her own, and tell her to tell the DCP to feed on demand? (I think this is the common approach but I don't know if it works in terms of alleviating mom's concerns)

B. Keep reminding moms and society in general that schedules were largely crafted to manage formula-fed infants and aren't necessary (I don't think many scheduling moms buy this even though it's true)?

C. Tell moms who "want" a schedule that they shouldn't, to watch hunger cues and nurse on demand (explaining growth spurts etc., since I think scheduled babes' mothers are more likely to assume they have a supply issue when there is a growth spurt); and that if they MUST schedule, to nurse every 2 hours minimum for the first couple months?


**
Or am I crazy in assuming that the "schedule" issue is a big one for some mothers when they're making the decision of whether or not to breastfeed, and if they breastfeed, how long to do so?

I guess schedules never made sense to me (although I can see their allure when I'm trying to go somewhere and babe decides it's time to eat instead of time to get in the car seat) .... But I think for a lot of women they are "what babies need," and I'm not sure how to help moms get over the hump of realizing that actually, it's not what they need ... and that being "unscheduled" doesn't mean chaos and bratty kids either.

[Momtwice]

You can give them links from kellymom and ezzo.info
1)explaining the science behind scheduling not working (reducing milk supply)
and
2) explaining that scheduling on a parent directed schedule in extreme cases has been linked to failure to thrive, dehydration, and even depression in babies...therefore the American Academy of Pediatrics has a warning against "parent directed schedules."

Let me know if you'd like the links.

[julie128]

You know, if she's going back to work at 8 weeks, she may need to work out a schedule of some kind. It may not be what she (or you) has in mind now, but she may end up with formula while she's at work, and bf while she's at home, which is better than formula only. By pushing her on this issue, you may end up turning her off of bf altogether. If you think she's dead set on schedules and formula, see if you can help her work out a realistic schedule (such as: 4 hour feedings are too far apart, how about 2 hour) or suggest ff/bf combo. She may end up nursing longer that way.

[hunnybumm]

As far as BF schedule feeding I had a really good friend who schedule fed her first child. Every 3 hours on the dot, her daughter was happy with this, her daughter always fell asleep at the breast and had to be constantly woken up to nurse for the first few months (this is from her and a LC friend's perspective not first hand). With her second child he refused to nurse on a schedule and she actually co-slept with him for a while (not sure if he is out of the bed yet, they are in Guam now) when she was very anit co-sleeping with #1. But she was also very dedicated to nursing until 1 year, then used "don't offer, don't refuse" after that. So if your friend is truly dedicated to BFing, even if for only the first few months then she may realize that the schedule thing just isn't working, or her baby may 'like' being on the schedule.

I would definitely give her info about how making a child so young cry because "it's not time for his next feeding yet" is very harmful. And other such literature. Hopefully the books you have gotten her will help as well.

[J2]

go to promom.org and print out 101 reasons to breastfeed to add to the resources...it is a great list!

[noodlegirl]

I know this sounds like I am advocating scheduling, but I am not. But breastfeeding, particuarly after the first 12ish weeks is compatible with some scheduling. Most of my friends do Babywise and they all breastfeed for a year with no supplementing. I think the trick really is feeding the baby when it is hungry but also making sure that feeding is a full feeding.

Strict scheduling isn't going to work and just cause frustration, but I think it is OK for a mom, particularly one who is going to be working out of the home and who is not totally into breastfeeding, to try to find a good routine.

So many babies fall into a routine anyway at 4-6 months. If wanting a schedule is important to the mom then it would be good to let them know that this may happen on its own and can be encouraged after the first few months.

Demand feeding is how I choose to feed my kids and it works for us, but breastfeeding can work under many different conditions. Limiting non-nutiritive sucking and feeding when a baby only when hungry is not ideal and not AP, but the baby is still getting breastmilk.

[Momtwice]

I know this sounds like I am advocating scheduling, but I am not. But breastfeeding, particuarly after the first 12ish weeks is compatible with some scheduling. Most of my friends do Babywise and they all breastfeed for a year with no supplementing.

Every mom I know who scheduled with or without Babywise had milk supply problems and did not make the connection. They said they scheduled and it worked "great" but they "mysteriously" lost their milk, often around the 3 month mark. These links explain why:
http://www.kellymom.com/babyconcerns....html#schedule

But I agree that a general routine works for some moms if they are flexible enough to feed the babies more often when they need it.

Katherine Dettwyler says it is possible for some women to make enough milk on a schedule, but "many will not." (She's referring to Babywise here in my opinion.)
http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detchristian.htm

The original publisher of Babywise (Multnomah) cancelled the book because it has dangerous advice and now the author publishes it himself.
http://ctlibrary.com/8028

The American Academy of Pediatrics warns that parent-directed schedules can be linked to dehydration, and failure to thrive:
http://ezzo.info/AAP/aap_media_alert.htm

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by noodlegirl

I know this sounds like I am advocating scheduling, but I am not. But breastfeeding, particuarly after the first 12ish weeks is compatible with some scheduling. Most of my friends do Babywise and they all breastfeed for a year with no supplementing. I think the trick really is feeding the baby when it is hungry but also making sure that feeding is a full feeding.

If they were truly "doing Babywise" (following it the way it was written and the way Ezzo says they must) chances are very good that they either would have supplemented, given up nursing, or ended up with a baby who failed to thrive. His books have absolutely no place in a breastfeeding relationship. Most of his advice--even beyond breastfeeding--is harmful, developmentally inappropriate, and not based on sound practice.

Baby's needs change and fluctuate as a baby grows. A baby might fall into a schedule today, only to have different needs tomorrow. Babies hit growth spurts, have varying emotional needs, might be fighting off an illness, or might just need extra nurturing at the breast, and those are all OK. The wonderful miraculous thing about breastfeeding is that it's not just about getting calories into a baby, it's about establishing a lifelong relationship. I've can't think of one instance where a loving relationship exists on a schedule.

[Momtwice]

Originally Posted by elanorh

So my question is - what's the best way to resolve the concern?
A. Assure mom that baby will settle into a routine on his/her own, and tell her to tell the DCP to feed on demand? (I think this is the common approach but I don't know if it works in terms of alleviating mom's concerns)

B. Keep reminding moms and society in general that schedules were largely crafted to manage formula-fed infants and aren't necessary (I don't think many scheduling moms buy this even though it's true)?

C. Tell moms who "want" a schedule that they shouldn't, to watch hunger cues and nurse on demand (explaining growth spurts etc., since I think scheduled babes' mothers are more likely to assume they have a supply issue when there is a growth spurt); and that if they MUST schedule, to nurse every 2 hours minimum for the first couple months?
.

It occurs to me that my responses in this thread may not have really answered elanorh's root question which might be:

How do I approach others with the best advice about breastfeeding in the most effective but non-pushy way?

That is a hard one isn't it? We want to tell other people the truth but we don't want to hurt them or make them mad. And if we know a mom who schedules we can give our opinion/knowledge but we can't really make them do something. It's up to them how they parent. And sometimes we feel like any human milk is a good thing so we don't want to turn them off.

It's a fine line. And I think if you go with your gut in each situation the answer may be a little different.

[St. Margaret]

I think the connection between strict scheduling and undermining BFing (whether it's making the mom decide not too or more lilkely creating problems that then cause the end of the relationship) is an insightful connection.

[elanorh]

SIL is mercurial, to say the least. I told dh that while I'm trying to be super-lowkey about things this weekend (they're here as godparents for Susan's baptism) -- I have a feeling that SIL is going to blow up at me for *something.* She does so pretty regularly at dh and has become even more so while pregnant.

I'm not going to talk alot about bf with her ... I may ask her if she wants an "up close" view of me feeding Susan, in case she's curious. She told us during her last visit that she couldn't believe that gmil quit bf "to get her figure back" (gmil warned SIL that she should do so, too) -- I think that on the surface, she thinks bf is the way to go (she's a scientist) - I just think that she's going to slam HARD into the "babies should be sleeping through at X weeks, babies should be nursing every X hours, babies should be ....." approach to parenting, and I think that approach in particular can really undermine breastfeeding because the mom starts thinking that "bf isn't working for us," when in reality, it's that their expectations are unrealistic. And based on ff'd babies and a scheduling culture.

I told dh the other night, the last thing I want to do is have a snit with SIL which causes her to *not* pick up the phone and call me at 2am when babe is 6 days old and she's sure she's not making enough milk. So other than the above - and book suggestions - I'm going to try to be as low-key as possible. Let her walk all over me if she's looking for a fight, even, if I can manage it. Hopefully she'll be in an "up" mood and not full of parenting advice, etc.

Which I guess was my overarching, root question - in general, do y'all think that this emphasis/expectation of the importance of scheduling feeds, sleep times, etc. is a barrier to breastfeeding (initiation and/or duration) for many of the "on the fence" women out there? It seems to me that it probably is (and we know that medically speaking, hard-core scheduled feeds can be very dangerous).

On the personal level, we are such the noncomformists in so many ways (the big one which bugs SIL beyond extended bf, is that we keep college hours in our house since dh is self-employed -- so we all go to bed around midnight, and get up at around 10am) ... I worry that she will connect the advice on how to bf successfully (from me and from the books) as meaning that she has to be as flexible and relaxed about parenting and life in general as we are, and she's NOT that way. I suspect that in general, this could be an obstacle for others who are worrying about bf and schedules too [if their personal examples are noncomformists like my family]? The assumption that bf on demand means cosleeping, cloth diapering, etc. etc. as well .... and they don't want to "go there." ?

[Sarah]

I have made some clocks that have a art picture of a nursing mother and an inspirational message.
Hopefully this clock would remind a clock watcher scheduler type- that they should focus on their sweet growing baby and not the minutes.

[veganf]

Originally Posted by elanorh

Or am I crazy in assuming that the "schedule" issue is a big one for some mothers when they're making the decision of whether or not to breastfeed, and if they breastfeed, how long to do so?

I guess schedules never made sense to me (although I can see their allure when I'm trying to go somewhere and babe decides it's time to eat instead of time to get in the car seat) .... But I think for a lot of women they are "what babies need," and I'm not sure how to help moms get over the hump of realizing that actually, it's not what they need ... and that being "unscheduled" doesn't mean chaos and bratty kids either.

I'm a big schedule person, and I'm happy to admit it. But one can have a flexible schedule. And not EVERYTHING has to be scheduled. I've never ever ever fed my babies on a schedule. But I do start nudging their naps onto a schedule around 4 months, and theirs meals (solid food) onto a schedule around 9 months. I have a very fixed bedtime routine. Etc.
I think scheduling can be done gently and not affect breastfeeding what-so-ever. So, no, I don't think breastfeeding and schedules have to be mutually exclusive. I think it's very easy to make a schedule around the baby's cues. It sure helps my day knowing generally when and how things are going to happen.

[Bekka]

Originally Posted by elanorh

she thinks bf is the way to go (she's a scientist) - I just think that she's going to slam HARD into the "babies should be sleeping through at X weeks, babies should be nursing every X hours, babies should be ....." approach to parenting, and I think that approach in particular can really undermine breastfeeding

I'm a "science type", although biology. Depending on her POV, she may be open to reading about some of the biological stuff you can find from Katherine Dettwyler, etc. (who is a scientist). You know, physiological age for weaning (losing of milk teeth), the idea that a newborn human is actually way immature compared to other primates, etc. and so we should really treat them like in utero for a few more months, including nearly constant feeding, etc. Find a "scientific" book, like Dr. Sears that has stages that are more flexible. Sorry, I don't have specific info just now.

Organic (as in growing, not food) is not cut and dried, and babies are organic. They actually are quite "scientific", cuing the body that they need more food and therefore nurse more (growth spurt). Also, if you talk in depth about the structure of breastmilk as a fluid, etc, that kind of thing might really appeal to her.

I really do believe that society *in general* has very fixed ideas about what it must be like to have a baby and the care thereof, and I don't really know how to fix society, but perhaps you can feed the scientist aspect of her personality with "good science."

[elanorh]

Well we had a good conversation.

I'm glad I'd printed out the Babywise information for her and put it in her gift box. We were talking together before the shower, and she has a friend who's BabyWising. She said that the baby is 3 months and still 100% breastfed, but that she doesn't want to be on her friend's end of the spectrum, a "happy medium" is what she wants. Whew. Probably means that the other end of the spectrum is us. And I realize we're a bit off the deep end for a lot of folks, so hopefully that means she'll end up going with a flexible schedule/routine (although of course we do follow a routine and usually are within half an hour or so of when things usually happen, on any given day, just because it works ).

I talked with her about how rigid scheduling can really make moms question their supplies when there is a growth spurt (and mentioned when they hit too) - might mean that she can help her friend out too since her friend is due for another growth spurt soon.

She hasn't read much yet but has "bought a lot of books." I told her that she MUST read a bf book before baby arrives, in case she runs into challenges so that she knows what to do; and to read Our Babies, Ourselves before baby arrives, too. So sent her home with that, the No Cry Sleep Solution, and So That's What They're For.

She didn't bat an eye over me breastfeeding Susan during the baptism service though, which was cool.

It made me sad to hear her talking about her friend. Her friend obviously loves her baby - is dreading going back to work, they've arranged for her dh to be SAHP with the baby, etc. When babe was first born, within a week she was trying to schedule naps and nursing sessions and her MIL was there and kept sabotaging her by picking baby up and holding her when she was "supposed" to be sleeping. And her own mom has told her, "Relax, you don't have to worry so much, it's hard to mess up a baby." I think she must be really afraid that she'll make a "mistake," and for whatever reason the superschedule approach makes sense to her as a way to make sure she doesn't mess up with her baby. So maybe it's not even so much about the focus on "schedules," but about an even deeper route issue - the fear that so many have of parenting itself, in terms of wanting to do it "right" and be "perfect," and just so uncertain about what babies need.

[MonP'titBoudain]

Originally Posted by elanorh

So maybe it's not even so much about the focus on "schedules," but about an even deeper route issue - the fear that so many have of parenting itself, in terms of wanting to do it "right" and be "perfect," and just so uncertain about what babies need.

I think that this fear plays a big role in undermining not just attempts at breastfeeding but our freedom to parent as we are naturally inclined to. Many of my friends feel such a strong need to hold themselves and their children to such rigid ideas (not just schedules... and I'm certainly guilty of this myself) that they really struggle to just parent. And, yes, in my experience, I've never seen inflexible scheduling succeed with nursing. So, in trying to help schedule-oriented friends establish their nursing relationships, I've tried to speak to a distinction between routine (as a flexible, pattern of events) and a schedule (more by the clock). It's been a helpful tool in opening a dialogue. It's also been a helpful tool in speaking with my mother and MIL who have a harder time understanding my strange hippie ways!