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Watch out for those baby buckets! - Page 2

post #21 of 41
AP doesn't mean you have to be in physical contact. IMHO, it means you are in EMOTIONAL contact with your child.

like someone else said, i thought this was about actual buckets.....mop buckets filled with cleaning solution and maybe a baby drowned in it. i have never heard of a highchair being reffered to as a bucket...WTF?

if her baby is happy, and mom is happy, then i agree, MYOB. if the baby was in opbvious prolonged distress, then thats another story entirely. but in your OP, it seems like the child was OK, you werent. every mom does things differently. a crib isnt a problem unless the baby is spending those 10 hours screaming.
post #22 of 41
- or when i hear anyone say some babies "like their space" or even enjoy sleeping in their cribs- is that it is simply not evolutionarily logical that anything of that sort is true. imagine a baby not wanting to be held in any society but this recent modern one!!
That may be so in theory, but my baby was AP'd from birth and once she started crawling did NOT want to be held at all unless she was sleeping or feeling sick/tired. Now that she's a very spirted toddler I can see that it was her personality coming out. We did the family bed until recently because she kicks the heck out of us at night-- trying to get her own space. She likes us to be with sight or earshot but wants to have her own space otherwise.

Just wanted to make it clear that not all babies are the same.

post #23 of 41
Originally posted by tabitha
... or when i hear anyone say some babies "like their space" or even enjoy sleeping in their cribs- is that it is simply not evolutionarily logical that anything of that sort is true. imagine a baby not wanting to be held in any society but this recent modern one!! that baby, if truly 'not wanting to be held', or liking to sleep isolated and alone, would surely die- that is, if the mother did not have her insincts, which tell her to keep the babe close and safe.
If I didn't have the brother I do, then I would probably agree wholeheartedly with this statement. I remember, though, my mother telling me that my brother (who is a year and ten months older than I) completely threw her for a loop. She had very strong mothering instincts, having had an incredibly nurturing mother who died when my mom was 14, and three younger siblings that she had to mother after her own mom was gone. My brother was her first child and from the very beginning he wanted nothing to do with being held, nothing to do with being cuddled - he wanted to sleep, eat, and be left to himself. (The funny thing is that even now, at 30, he is very much the same. He's very loving in his own way, but needs a *lot* of personal space). She said she spent the first six months or so absolutely freaked out - her instincts were screaming to her to nurture and keep him close, and he wouldn't hear of it. This is not what she knew about babies and not what she felt in her gut was the right way for a baby to interact with his mother - she even thought there might be something wrong with him because he never fussed and never cried to be held.

(Of course, then I came along a few months later and she was happy to have such a "low-needs" toddler : )

I guess my point is that although evolution tends to be a pretty logical process (with the occasional exception), it also needs to be looked at in a larger context. We can't simply look to what was necessary thousands of years ago - we also have to consider our environment in the not-so distant past -- an environment that has made it possible for babies to survive without sleeping right next to their mothers and without being constantly held.

Personally, I prefer to do things the old way - fortunately my baby agreed.

post #24 of 41
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all the input - even though I tend to agree with the posters who think babies are programmed to NEED human contact, even if they don't express it, I decided to just keep my mouth shut and let my friend find her own way. After all, no one knows Lulu better than she does. And Steph always responded immediately to Lulu if she showed any distress, and got her out of her plastic seat. Lulu is just 13 mos, btw.

But lo and behold, guess who called me this morning, saying that after I left with my dd, she noticed all by herself that Lulu was in a plastic seat far too much? She has also noticed that while Lulu is not *unhappy* being in a plastic seat, she is much happier if she gets carried. Steph says she is "in sorts" instead of "out of sorts".

So I stuck my nose in and asked why Lulu was sleeping in a crib, and it turns out that the husband doesn't want the baby in bed. So my friend is torn between husband and baby. How much does that suck ?

At least the baby is getting carried more, now. And she is happier because of it. Maybe the fact that a baby will tolerate being put in a plastic seat doesn't mean they are happy. I mean, a baby would eat twinkies and cheese puffs if that's all you gave her, and maybe even learn to like them, but that doesn't mean it's good for her!! Maybe the same is true for plastic seats, no matter what the shape or size.
post #25 of 41
But again, it's really all about paying close attention to your child.

The mamas who put their babies down because they are pushing away and NOT happy when being held, I believe are truly paying attention and giving their children what they need.

It would seem that babies who fuss and push away when being held, but don't in an exersaucer aren't just tolerating the plastic seat. Isn't it possible they might actually prefer it?
post #26 of 41
I definitley have problems with parents keepign their children in isolated rooms away from the family too much when they're not sleeping, but anything that keeps the child in the midst of things is great.

I don't agree that humans or any creature for that matter has or is supposed to have huge amounts of physical contact. I think anyone who holds and looks at and hugs and kisses such is provding the kinesthetic needs. Most importantly respond to your kids touch needs, if they ask for more, provide it, less provide that.

What I think IS very basic to mammals and humans in particular is the invovlement in life. All children should be where the other peopel are. If you're cooking in the kitchen the kids shoudl be there. If you're in the living room the kids should be there. What kids hear and see even when they're infants is crucial. They're learning all about life and the world this way.

I have my 7 month old in an exersaucer during the evening cuddle time. My 5 year old, 2 year old, 1 year old, 7 month old, the dogs and I all gather in the living room and read books, listen to music, watch TV, dance sing and mostly cuddle and kiss. The kids roll over each other and laugh and tickle the baby and kiss him on the head and hug him. I'm with the baby all day long alone and need to have phsyical time with my other kids.
post #27 of 41
I know i posted before, but i must add that my adorable 5 yr old, with the bluest eyes you have ever seen, hates to be held and kissed. he demanded to be held for about 6 months, then that was it. it is so upsetting that i do not, and have not had "holding time" with him, my other two loved, just loved to be held and kissed. sigh. what i do to get my sorely missed kissing time, is to cut him a deal.....i will give him *2* fruit roll ups if he lays on the bed with me for five minutes (i set a timer) and i get to kiss him and hug him and smell his blond hair as much as i want during that five minutes.

i'm pathetic, right?

**no flame shots for the rollups, i'm desperate!*
post #28 of 41
sweetbaby - LOL!!

That's adorable!!
post #29 of 41
I use freckles as an excuse to make my kids let me smooch them now that they're bigger and don't want mama all over them.

I kiss every new freckle. My former Anti-Snuggling DD now points out new freckles so I can be sure to kiss them all.

Freckles are fun.
post #30 of 41
Originally posted by tabitha

what shocks me about the excessive use of infant carriers (they are actually mentioned in some baby books as 'must-haves') is that they offer absolutely no mechanical advantage!! those things make is so difficult to carry a babe around in them! i see mothers carting these things around and i want to approach them and give them the sling off my back... please, take this- its so much easier! i guess the real 'ease' of those seats is that you can go from car to stroller to house, even let the baby sleep in them, why- you could go all day without touching your child, if you have one of those 'super absorbant' diapers!
While I totally agree that there are a huge number of people who do use devices to ignore their kids, not everyone who uses these devices are NOT AP.

I have a physical problem with my knee, ankle, and leg. Because of this, my ankle often gives out and I often go splat on the ground unless I can catch myself. Until Gavin has stronger back and neck muscles, I NEED to use his car seat as a carrier in places we HAVE to go (post office, vet, bank) and have to leave my SO to take care of all other errands (like the grocery store). I would LOVE to be able to use a sling or carrier, but I'd be incredibly selfish and stupid to put him in one KNOWING my physical problems and KNOWING that it offers him more protection at the moment. Do I like lugging it around with a rat travel carrier in the case of the vet or with a bag full of packages at the post office? Of course not. It's bulky, it's heavy, and it's a pain in the ass to open doors.

That being said, whenever I have one or both hands free, they are both playing with Gavin in his carrier, he is being talked to the whole time, and giggles and laughs while in it, far from being ignored and forgotten. While he was in the carrier yesterday at the vet, he was all smiles and the vet said that he was an extremely happy baby.

Again, I'm sure a lot of people who use infant carriers on errands don't have a physical problem, but many of us do, so please don't think that we're any less AP or love our babies any less because we are keeping them safe.
post #31 of 41
One general thing I've noticed a lot is the tendency to extrapolate from your own kids(s) -- "If my dd was in that situation, she would be so unhappy, therefore this other child must be unhappy, too." It's a natural tendency -- I have certainly done it -- but I become more convinced with everything I read (both colloquial and scholarly) that kids have innate personalities which can be urged in one way or another but are very hard to squelch.

Say two moms are talking about their HS kids. One kid, Scott, is 7 feet tall. The other, David, is 5 feet tall. Scott's mom says, "Of course David can dunk the basketball! I was patient with Scott and did drills with him, and now he can dunk like a pro!" Scott's mom's patience and drills no doubt helped, but that doesn't mean that if David's mom does the same thing, David will be able to dunk.

post #32 of 41
we a have a bouncey seat...4th kid and someone finally gave me one. anywho, I just want to sew without him on a boppy in my lap nursing, lol. he will lay on the floor for 10-15 minutes here and there... I think there is a balance.

I don't have a swing, high chair, exsaucers, pack n' play, etc not just because I know I would overuse them but because, who wants all that tacky lookin stuff sittin around the house?!....it's almost as bad as that little tykes lawn trash:

if my friend's kid was always sat to the side, i'd jump right in and interact with him myself or ask if I could hold him.
post #33 of 41
Originally posted by chellemarie
Foo and the Captain
Oh wow! They were my favorite musical act of the late disco era! I have all their albums!!!
post #34 of 41
Regarding the OP, I think spending 20 hours a day out of physical contact is excessive.

Baby or toddler, I think such a young child should be encouraged to explore in and out of arms more hours than not each day.

It would really bother me to spend 20 hours a day without having physically touched by baby!

Out of curiosity, would the op be more disturbing to anyone if we were talking about the routine in a daycare? I try to withhold criticism of mothers, but if that same routine were being used in a daycare, I expect many more would agree the child was being deprived from play time and holding time in a very unhealthy manner, regardless of how content she may seem with her circumstances. If anything, we might find her acceptance of so little contact all the more troubling.

Is there a difference?
post #35 of 41
I agree heartmama. However, I think that the title blaming the equipment rather than the mother was what initially got things off track. JMHO.
post #36 of 41
I agree with laralou, I've noticed that when we go after the stuff and not the user people get offended because they use the "stuff" whatever it may be. I have a bucket n my bathroom. DD outgrew it as a carseat and I plop her down in it for my showers and for when I get in and out of the tub for her baths and showers so I don't worry about dropping her. I'm certainly not offended at someone calling it a bucket, in fact, we call it a baby tupperware because MIL's mom asked us if we had a "container" for dd when she was 6 days old. I have a highchair, a booster with a tray and probably some other "neglect devices" lying around, and I even use them for some things, but I don't neglect my daughter, kwim? While I am not offended by terminology that degrades these devices and appliances or whatever they are, I've ntoiced some folks get good and riled up about it.

That said, a frind of mine pointed out to me that some people refer to their carseat/ baby holder affectionately as "the bucket" so I don't think anyone should get too upset about it.

Back to the real topic, I am certainly not judging anyone's parenting styles or their own intuition about thier children, Lord knows you know your kids better than I do, but anthropologically speaking, children are designed to be held close, their instincts tell them it's supposed to be that way, and I think it is a reflection of our "modern" society that we think they want or need to be put down. Not only that, but our society requires that we put them down. To live a life even close to normal, we have to set our babies down to do some things. The problem I think is inherent in what we as a culture value, i.e. cars, houses, clothes, status in the form of jobs, etc., wanting these things separates us from our kids. When society's norm is all about separation and how many "baby containers" one can acquire at one's baby shower, it's easy to fall into the trap of separation which I probably don't have to point out is the opposite of attachment.

It may be that your frind thinks that these devices are cool and she had just wanted to play with them, kwim? Like I can't wait to feed dd solids even though she's not ready, just for yox. Like hey, maybe Lulu will like the jumper, let see... Look she's laughing, great, and then she puts her in there tomorrow and again the next day and it becames habit. Does that make sense?

I really don't want to get into it about specifics, but I have a hard time believing that so many babies (I mean all babies, not just MDC babies) want to be set down and that so many babies "need their space." I have a friend whose son is freakishly advanced and he is the most active and independent child I think I have ever seen and he doesn't "need his space." Babies are designed to be with their parents. Toddlers are like babies on wheels, they have baby brains and halfway kid abilities and they need lots of in arms time too, even if they also need lots of exploring time.

I'm glad your friend is realizing her daughter would benefit from in arls time, I think we all would.
post #37 of 41
Heartmama wrote
QUOTE] Out of curiosity, would the op be more disturbing to anyone if we were talking about the routine in a daycare? I try to withhold criticism of mothers, but if that same routine were being used in a daycare, I expect many more would agree the child was being deprived from play time and holding time in a very unhealthy manner, regardless of how content she may seem with her circumstances. I[/QUOTE]

Goo has less contact time at daycare than at home. I know that she fights being held by them except for bottle time. They've reported that to me. I have seen her do it when I am there! She'll actually push away so she can wriggle and be on the floor and play.

At home, she goes back and forth. Sunday I spent two whole hours of her running away, playing with a toy and then crawling over to me, hugging me and then running away again. I enjoyed it and I try to be there, but the truth is, she'll fight me if she doesn't want contact. She really does want space sometimes.
post #38 of 41
Originally posted by veganmamma
I have a hard time believing that so many babies (I mean all babies, not just MDC babies) want to be set down and that so many babies "need their space."

Well, sorry you don't "believe" it. My DD hated to be held. But babies like this didn't exist in the ancient past you say? WRONG. The brutal truth is that in those ancient times, babies like this did exist but unfortunatley sometimes not for long. Babies like this would often have been in a lot of trouble. There would have been a good chance of abandonment of a baby who cried all the time they were being held. (Read the book MotherNature for a fascinating discussion of this issue).

So my thinking is THANK GOD the past is past. And that babies with different needs can now have those needs met!
post #39 of 41
Thread Starter 
Originally posted by alexa07
Well, sorry you don't "believe" it. My DD hated to be held.

...deleted by moderator...
post #40 of 41
First no personal attacks please. Second, my dd did not like to be held from day one. She resisted bf'ing until I bf'd her without touching or stroking her, then she became a good eater. She would scream when I carried her in a sling and would only be happy if I held her facing outwards with my arms outstreached. She hated people touching her face. She loved being in a stroller. This all occured before we allowed her to learn to sleep on her own.

While, I understand you don't approve of CIO, my daughter was happier and calmer after she was allowed to learn to sleep alone. Please do not attack me and talk about things you know nothing about. Today my DD is happy and sweet and loving, but she tells me that long hugs annoy her and she does not like to be touched at all by people who she does not know well. She is articulate about her wants and needs and I respect them.
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