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Christ- God's Son or God? - Page 2

post #21 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwit View Post
Here is how the Gospel of John starts out and begins to explain the relationship between Jesus and God

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

34 I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God." 35 The next day John was there again with two of his disciples. 36 When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, "Look, the Lamb of God!"

Obviously I left out some verses to keep this post a little shorter but you can read all of the first chapter of John here: http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...iv&showtools=0
In vs 2 it says that the Word was with God. How can you be with someone that you actually are? That does not make sense.

And there are other bible translations that say this diffently saying that the Word was "a" god, not God himself:

1808: “and the word was a god.” The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text.

1864: “and a god was the word.” The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.

1928: “and the Word was a divine being.” La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.

1935: “and the Word was divine.” The Bible—An American Translation, by J.*M.*P.*Smith and E.*J.*Goodspeed.

1946: “and of a divine kind was the Word.” Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme.

1958: “and the Word was a God.” The New Testament, by James L.*Tomanek.

1975: “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.

1978: “and godlike kind was the Logos.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider.

And John 20:17 says " Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God" How does that make sense? If Jesus was God how was he ascending to "my Father" and "my God"?

And in the book of Matthew it says: [16] And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:[17] And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased

If it was God himself being baptized, where did the voice come from that was from heaven that identified Jesus as "my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased"? Does not this expression sound more like a father praising his son than someone praising themself?
post #22 of 68
I am LDS (Mormon) and we believe that Jesus and God the Father are two separate persons. We believe the Holy Spirit to be a separate personage as well.

We believe that Jesus was the firstborn spirit child of God in the premortal existence. We were all spirit children of God. God wanted us to be able to have bodies like Him, and wanted us to be able to grow and progress past what we could learn in the perfect state we lived in. So he wanted to create an Earth for us to come to and learn on. But he knew in the course of learning we would all make mistakes which would separate us from God forever, because if you are not perfected, you cannot withstand the awesome glory of God. So, He knew we would need a Savior. Jesus, the firstborn spirit, volunteered to take on that awesome responsibility. He was born half-divine, the biological son of God the Father. After he died, he was resurrected and appeared again to his disciples and also to other faithful followers of God, before going back to live with God the Father as he prepared our future home for us. The atonement Jesus made was able to pay for the misdeeds of all mankind, so that we could all live again with Heavenly Father. BTW, Jesus now has a body, like Heavenly Father, and after we die, eventually we will be ressurected and will keep our perfected bodies as well.

Whew, that was long.
post #23 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by LionTigerBear View Post
I am LDS (Mormon) and we believe that Jesus and God the Father are two separate persons. We believe the Holy Spirit to be a separate personage as well.

We believe that Jesus was the firstborn spirit child of God in the premortal existence. We were all spirit children of God. God wanted us to be able to have bodies like Him, and wanted us to be able to grow and progress past what we could learn in the perfect state we lived in. So he wanted to create an Earth for us to come to and learn on. But he knew in the course of learning we would all make mistakes which would separate us from God forever, because if you are not perfected, you cannot withstand the awesome glory of God. So, He knew we would need a Savior. Jesus, the firstborn spirit, volunteered to take on that awesome responsibility. He was born half-divine, the biological son of God the Father. After he died, he was resurrected and appeared again to his disciples and also to other faithful followers of God, before going back to live with God the Father as he prepared our future home for us. The atonement Jesus made was able to pay for the misdeeds of all mankind, so that we could all live again with Heavenly Father. BTW, Jesus now has a body, like Heavenly Father, and after we die, eventually we will be ressurected and will keep our perfected bodies as well.

Whew, that was long.

Yes. We also believe that Jesus is God as well. (I'm LDS also).
post #24 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by LionTigerBear View Post
I am LDS (Mormon) and we believe that Jesus and God the Father are two separate persons. We believe the Holy Spirit to be a separate personage as well.

We believe that Jesus was the firstborn spirit child of God in the premortal existence. We were all spirit children of God. God wanted us to be able to have bodies like Him, and wanted us to be able to grow and progress past what we could learn in the perfect state we lived in. So he wanted to create an Earth for us to come to and learn on. But he knew in the course of learning we would all make mistakes which would separate us from God forever, because if you are not perfected, you cannot withstand the awesome glory of God. So, He knew we would need a Savior. Jesus, the firstborn spirit, volunteered to take on that awesome responsibility. He was born half-divine, the biological son of God the Father. After he died, he was resurrected and appeared again to his disciples and also to other faithful followers of God, before going back to live with God the Father as he prepared our future home for us. The atonement Jesus made was able to pay for the misdeeds of all mankind, so that we could all live again with Heavenly Father. BTW, Jesus now has a body, like Heavenly Father, and after we die, eventually we will be ressurected and will keep our perfected bodies as well.

Whew, that was long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekka View Post
Yes. We also believe that Jesus is God as well. (I'm LDS also).
ditto. but to claify i'd say we believe Jesus is a God.

from the LDS Bible Dictionary (http://scriptures.lds.org/bd/g/43)--
Quote:
When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is referred to; that is, Elohim. All mankind are his children. The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as LORD (in capital letters), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God. Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. All mankind are his brethren and sisters, he being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Many of the things that the scripture says were done were actually done by the LORD (Jesus). Thus the scripture says that “God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1: 1), but we know that it was actually the LORD (Jesus) who was the creator (John 1: 3, 10), or as Paul said, God created all things by Christ Jesus (Eph. 3: 9).
post #25 of 68
Thanks Maggie and Bekka.
post #26 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand View Post
I was raised a Christian and still attend a Christian Church. For 3 yrs now I have had visits from Ann, our local Jehovas Witness. She keeps coming back (thinks dh likes to chat to her).

Anyway she gave me a book all about Jesus and I was surprised to read in it that Jesus according to this book (backed up by the bible) is a Son of God but NOT actually God. (I think they see Jesus as a prophet of God). I always thought God was the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

So what is the truth here? I know Jesus is God's son but I thought he was God in human form?

Really confused now!!:
Be Prepared: Most folks on this board will tell you that He is neither.
Food for thought: a child of a horse is horse. A begotten child of God is God.
If you believe Jesus is a Son of God, then how then He is not God?
If you don't believe He is a Begotten Son of God, therefore you don't believe He is God.
post #27 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janelovesmax View Post
Be Prepared: Most folks on this board will tell you that He is neither.
Food for thought: a child of a horse is horse. A begotten child of God is God.
If you believe Jesus is a Son of God, then how then He is not God?
If you don't believe He is a Begotten Son of God, therefore you don't believe He is God.
That's not necessarily true. That would be true if God were a species. But if one were to consider "God" as more of a title, a state of being, or a term referring to a fully matured spiritual being, then that argument doesn't hold.
post #28 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand View Post
Chasing Peace
I understand what you mean about things that are factually true. I guess I am trying to understand my relationship to God and Jesus and my abilities as a human being to follow Jesus' path.

I am also interested in understanding what other religions believe, especially as Ann keeps wanting to come back to chat to me about Jesus in particular.

Well it gets confusing but is it interesting, I am learning a lot!
If you believe in the infallibility of the word of God, go do a search on Christ's deity. Read the original Greek and Hebrew. Study John 1:1-2 where John likens Jesus to "The Word" who was with God and WAS God. The JW's do change this verse in their NWT.

I wouldn't go to others to figure out what they believe to affirm or confirm what I "think" I believe ..... I would go to the source (God. God's word) and pray and ask for revelation and Truth. People can believe all kinds of things, but it doesn't make it truth.


.....oh, and of course Ann keeps coming back to you, she sees you are not certain about your belief's and hopes to gain a convert. I wouldn't let her confuse you all the more.

Just my opinion though
post #29 of 68

My unconventional two cents

I've always thought of Jesus as being seperate from God but part of him at the same time. Being a Pagan, I view him as a son of God not the son of God. When he said that he and his father are one, I think he meant it in the same sense that I do when I say that my husband and I are one. I think we are all one with God, all of us part of him, that he lives in us all but is also a seperate entity. I think this is true of Jesus as well, though I think perhaps it may have been more true of him than other men.
post #30 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
ditto. but to claify i'd say we believe Jesus is a God.

Pardon the interjection from a nonbeliever here, but may I ask for a clarification?

Does the "a" before the word "God" mean that you believe there are several gods? That Jesus is one of a ... etc., etc., etc.?
post #31 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by merpk View Post
Pardon the interjection from a nonbeliever here, but may I ask for a clarification?

Does the "a" before the word "God" mean that you believe there are several gods? That Jesus is one of a ... etc., etc., etc.?
Well, to clarify further . . .

There is "God" the term used as a job description, and there is "god", referring to a perfected spiritual being.

We believe that all human beings have the potential to become gods or goddesses. We believe that Jesus achieved exaltation (perfection) so he is now a god, yes. He is also part of the Godhead, meaning he helps God the Father with the job of being God.
post #32 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by LionTigerBear View Post

We believe that all human beings have the potential to become gods or goddesses. We believe that Jesus achieved exaltation (perfection) so he is now a god, yes. He is also part of the Godhead, meaning he helps God the Father with the job of being God.
Would Jesus be, according to your beliefs, the god of this world?

That's been sort of my take on LDS beliefs. I know other Christians who would jump all over that, too, but my assumption has been that it's sort of a non-issue since this world is the one we're dealing with. So Jesus as God isn't really in conflict with the "other gods" thing. (I know there are beliefs about what may come next and who will be what/where, but in pragmatic terms, the religion focuses on Jesus as the god of this world. No? The issue of "other gods" is more of a worldview/the-way-things-work thing that doesn't relate--again, pragmatically speaking.)

I'm not surprised that LDS don't often "lead" with this particular of belief, since at heart it also is true to say that you do believe that Jesus is God (as Bekka said.) Not only true, but simpler and with more unifying potential. The further clarification by magstphil ("we believe Jesus is a god") really is a particular that comes into play only if you are taking into account worlds other than this one. Am I right?

(Sorry for the tangent, but it seems like this thread can take it and keep going.)
post #33 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmyC View Post
I know other Christians who would jump all over that, too, but my assumption has been that it's sort of a non-issue since this world is the one we're dealing with. So Jesus as God isn't really in conflict with the "other gods" thing.
What I mean by this is that I've heard Christians criticize the LDS faith, claiming "They say Jesus is God, but they really believe he's one of many gods." And on from there. Implying that this proves the falsehood of the beliefs, because obviously it makes Jesus somehow less. And that it shows their claims to be deliberately misleading, since the "really believe" this other thing. But from my understanding of Mormon beliefs, I'd say that in this world, the statement that Jesus is God is the relevant one, and fully true in the context of what is important here and now.

Beyond that, if you knew nothing more of your religion's cosmology, couldn't that knowledge (assuming it's accompanied by knowledge of his life & teachings, and all) still be enough to transform your life and lead you to reconciliation with God?
post #34 of 68
Okay, back from the LDS tangent for a minute....

As for beliefs about the nature of Jesus, some Christians believe that it was after his death that he fully realized his divinity ("realized" as in actualized, or it was made real/actual then, not just "it dawned on him" then! )

This belief maintains that "he glorified his humanity, uniting it with the divinity of which it was begotten," and the resurrection and his glorified body are the inevitable result of the power of that final unity. From this perspective, his life is one of process, including times at which he felt so close to "the Father" that he was able to claim they were one, and other times at which he felt forsaken by that same Father.

This view very much sees the Incarnation as an act of process. Throughout his whole earthly life, Jesus resisted, opposed, and annihilated (in internal and moral combat) every tendency to evil and selfishness in the nature he had assumed. At his death, Jesus completed his journey from human to divine. It is at this point that he united the two aspects of his being, human and divine, and the resurrection and glorification are the consequence of that fact.

So there's another perspective on the divinity of Jesus.
post #35 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janelovesmax View Post
Be Prepared: Most folks on this board will tell you that He is neither.
Food for thought: a child of a horse is horse. A begotten child of God is God.
If you believe Jesus is a Son of God, then how then He is not God?
If you don't believe He is a Begotten Son of God, therefore you don't believe He is God.
Well my thoughts on this are that the bible says that God has no beginning and no end, therefore he has always been. The bible says that Jesus was begotten and was also created by God (meaning Almighty God), so this in and of itself does not allow for him to be God. There are of course different definitions for the word God. THe bible says there are other "gods" such as at 1 Corinthians 4:3,4

[3] But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
[4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Who is this "god" of this world that has blinded the minds of them which believe not? The word "god" is dependent on what you are using it with the context.

So based on this, my belief is that there is one supreme being, an almighty God, who has existed forever and has no beginning and no end. He created his son and sent him to earth as a redeemer for our sins so that we can be forgiven as we have been sinners since Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden. When Jesus was created, he was not created as someone equal to his father, the almighty God, but was his son and assisted him in heaven prior to coming to the earth, came to earth and died for us (which he could not be God if he died because God cannot die), and then was resurrected and is currently in heaven again with his father, sitting at his right hand which is referenced in Heb 12:2 [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

And if he is sitting down at the right hand of the throne of God how can he be God himself? It shows a position of subjection, an example of such is the Kings and Queens of England. The King has his throne which is higher and usually larger and the Queen, who is not equal to him, has a throne that is on the side of the King.
post #36 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLDoula View Post
Well my thoughts on this are that the bible says that God has no beginning and no end, therefore he has always been. The bible says that Jesus was begotten and was also created by God (meaning Almighty God), so this in and of itself does not allow for him to be God.
I always understood that Jesus' human body is what is referred to as "begotten." That does not mean He did not exist before he was became a human.
post #37 of 68
firsty i just wanted to say that i "clarified" because this has been brought up here before and it was said "we believe Jesus is God" and there was this whole "no you don't because a b and c" so i thought it'd be less confusing if it was just all there. guess not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmyC View Post
Would Jesus be, according to your beliefs, the god of this world?
pretty much, which is why i gave the quote from the Bible dictionary in my first post to sort of give a better deffinition.

Quote:
since at heart it also is true to say that you do believe that Jesus is God (as Bekka said.) Not only true, but simpler and with more unifying potential. The further clarification by magstphil ("we believe Jesus is a god") really is a particular that comes into play only if you are taking into account worlds other than this one. Am I right?
[/QUOTE]

yes and no. i have found that if i say "oh yes, we believe Jesus is God" i get the a b and c listng again and again as to why we don't really believe that... but sort of do :. so we do believe Jesus is God but not God the Father which is what i'm assuming we're talkng about here? God the Father? so if we were asking "is Jesus the one who created this world etc etc" then yes He is God. but who is usually being refered to when speaking of God is God the Father not God who did x y z. oh my gosh, am i making any sense??? :
anyway, hense the "clarification".

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmyC View Post
What I mean by this is that I've heard Christians criticize the LDS faith, claiming "They say Jesus is God, but they really believe he's one of many gods." And on from there. Implying that this proves the falsehood of the beliefs, because obviously it makes Jesus somehow less. And that it shows their claims to be deliberately misleading, since the "really believe" this other thing. But from my understanding of Mormon beliefs, I'd say that in this world, the statement that Jesus is God is the relevant one, and fully true in the context of what is important here and now.
that's pretty much what i was touching on with my "clarification". i didn't want to get the "no, you *really* believe this..." and have this thread go off on a tangent. whoops! so i have to apologise for even bringing it up in the first place. but i have a feeling either way we'd still be discussing it.

Quote:
Beyond that, if you knew nothing more of your religion's cosmology, couldn't that knowledge (assuming it's accompanied by knowledge of his life & teachings, and all) still be enough to transform your life and lead you to reconciliation with God?
i wholeheartdly believe so.
post #38 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasingPeace View Post
I always understood that Jesus' human body is what is referred to as "begotten." That does not mean He did not exist before he was became a human.
I believe that Jesus was created and existed in heaven for many years and was the first creation of God, and then was sent to earth in human form
post #39 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmyC View Post
Would Jesus be, according to your beliefs, the god of this world?
Umm, actually, no.

According to LDS beliefs, God the Father is the God of this world.

Jesus is part of the Godhead, so, sort of like a vice president I guess, to make an analogy.

We believe that God the Father was once a mortal like us, and that one day, any one of us can "grow up" spiritually to become like God the Father. So, someday, we could have our own little world or galaxy or whatever to be a God over. But just achieving the status of god (exalted being) doesn't mean you have achieved the Job Title of God (being the God of your own world.)

So, Jesus is VERY VERY relevant, and he is my personal Savior, and with out him, nothing in the world would be made, and we would be cut off from God the Father forever because the law of good and evil condemns us . . . but through the Mercy of God the Father's plan, Jesus is the way to be made whole again. So I would say that He is incredibly important and relevant. But He is not the THE God of this world.
post #40 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand View Post
I was raised a Christian and still attend a Christian Church. For 3 yrs now I have had visits from Ann, our local Jehovas Witness. She keeps coming back (thinks dh likes to chat to her).

Anyway she gave me a book all about Jesus and I was surprised to read in it that Jesus according to this book (backed up by the bible) is a Son of God but NOT actually God. (I think they see Jesus as a prophet of God). I always thought God was the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

So what is the truth here? I know Jesus is God's son but I thought he was God in human form?

Really confused now!!:
Slightly OT for your main question, but I have a very large file of info about JWs and many links. I was also raised one, so if you want to know anything, feel free to pm or email.

Back on topic... Did Ann also tell you that Jesus is really the archangel Michael? That is who they believe He is. Though the first chapter of Hebrews says otherwise, IIRC.

fyrfly
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