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I saw a 3 year old walking up the street today - ALONE! - Page 4

post #61 of 156
one word:scary
post #62 of 156
My question is this:

While it might be cultural, and the parents might be "good parents" who have faith in their children, and their children might live up to those expectations, but a 3yo outside alone is still in danger of being abducted. Even if the "running into traffic" concern is eliminated, is this still a neglectful behavior regardless of the parent's philosophy?
post #63 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthla View Post
My question is this:

While it might be cultural, and the parents might be "good parents" who have faith in their children, and their children might live up to those expectations, but a 3yo outside alone is still in danger of being abducted. Even if the "running into traffic" concern is eliminated, is this still a neglectful behavior regardless of the parent's philosophy?
A child could be abducted right out of your shopping cart while you are turned to look at something else. I feel that if someone wants to abduct a child, they are going to figure out a way to do it no matter what.

I refuse to live in constant fear of what could happen, it would paralize me. I could have my child abducted while grocery shopping, from their daycare, from school, from their grandparents house, from their friends house or from the playground they play at right outside my door.
post #64 of 156
So true.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Britishmum View Post

I do think that we need to tread carefully when trying to apply our own personal and cultural values to the lives of our neighbours.
post #65 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by wemoon View Post
A child could be abducted right out of your shopping cart while you are turned to look at something else. I feel that if someone wants to abduct a child, they are going to figure out a way to do it no matter what.

I refuse to live in constant fear of what could happen, it would paralize me. I could have my child abducted while grocery shopping, from their daycare, from school, from their grandparents house, from their friends house or from the playground they play at right outside my door.

I agree with what you are saying to a point. Anything can happen anywhere, but don't you think a three year alone outside might just increase the odds to the point where someone might just take advantage of the situation just b/c it presented itself so nicely.

I believe a lot of the pedophiles/kidnappers out there just wait for situation like the OP. They can see a child constantly left alone outside and figure maybe they are "saving" them from their neglectful parents. As sick as it sounds, I think that is the motivation behind some kidnappings.
post #66 of 156
I don't think all the scare-mongering about stranger abductions is helpful here, when we know.. or we should know.. that they are very rare. They are every parent's nightmare, but they are not the biggest danger to our children.

Parental abductions are more common than stranger abductions.
And of course, children are more likely to be abused or molested by people they know than by "strangers."

I don't agree with this woman's parenting decision. My 4 1/2 year old is not walking the streets by himself, for a variety of reasons. But I do not think it is neglectful... particularly if the main basis for terming it that is child abduction.

I think it is a bad choice. But obviously that mother doesn't. Do I involve CPS or throw around terms like "neglect" every time a parent does something I don't agree with? NO. I save the term "neglect" for children who are left to starve and suffer. And I'd never call CPS unless a situation was utterly desperate. You'd be involving the government over what you think "could" happen to this child. That's a very very grey area.. and a very slippery slope.

There is an awful blame the mother mentality in some posts here, too.. as though bad parenting is the cause of child abduction. Ick.
post #67 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by asherah View Post
There is an awful blame the mother mentality in some posts here, too.. as though bad parenting is the cause of child abduction. Ick.
I think in some cases it is the parent's fault.

I think this is dangerous enough to cross acceptable cultural and stylistic parenting differences. Know that if I saw this happening, and the parent was not receptive to me mentioning the dangers, that I would call CPS. And I am generally very anti-CPS. But in this case the danger to the child far outweighs the discomfort of the mother if CPS is called. This is definitely neglectful.
post #68 of 156
And so you will of course be completely understanding of and in agreement with those who think not vaxing and declining western medicine are TRULY neglectful and who call CPS.

Because they truly believe that is DEFINITELY neglectful. They believe it just as much as you believe THIS case is definitely neglectful.

So you agree that they should call CPS. Because you'd never be hypocritical, right?

This cuts both ways. So I hope you defend others who call CPS based on other belief systems. Belief systems that go against YOURS.

I am far more afraid of people who think like this than I am of my child being abducted.
post #69 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by LionTigerBear View Post
I think in some cases it is the parent's fault.
Uh, no, it is the kidnapper's fault. Always.
post #70 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by asherah View Post

I am far more afraid of people who think like this than I am of my child being abducted.
post #71 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini View Post
This would be a regional thing, I think. My SIL who lived in Alaska would think of that as really warm. Someone from FL would think of it as cold.

Personally, where we are, 60 degrees requires a jacket and jeans.
I've lived all over, being former military.

No matter what region you're in, it's NEVER dangerous to wear only shorts when it's 60 degrees. One might be uncomfortably cool, but there is no physical danger such as frostbite, chilblains, etc.

And even when we lived in N. Carolina, my eldest would complain about having to wear a long-sleeved shirt/jeans/jacket when it was in the 40s. We lived there when he was aged 3-5. Even now, at 15 (and in Rhode Island), he'll dress for the day in shorts and a t-shirt when I have on layers and a coat.
post #72 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharlla View Post
You can always do one of those notes pinned to her shirt saying "If I got this close to your daughter, just think about who else could" type of thing.
That's an awesome idea!
post #73 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by asherah View Post
And so you will of course be completely understanding of and in agreement with those who think not vaxing and declining western medicine are TRULY neglectful and who call CPS.

Because they truly believe that is DEFINITELY neglectful. They believe it just as much as you believe THIS case is definitely neglectful.

So you agree that they should call CPS. Because you'd never be hypocritical, right?

This cuts both ways. So I hope you defend others who call CPS based on other belief systems. Belief systems that go against YOURS.

I am far more afraid of people who think like this than I am of my child being abducted.
I don't believe it is hypocritical to hold a moral or ethical code in disagreement with someone else's. Some things are wrong, and some people in society require protection (such as children). In order to live in a scoiety, the individual will be required to at least occasionally bow to the consensus of the majority, so it is the citizen's responsibilty to choose a government to reside in, if they are able, within which they can abide by the laws of the land. In our nation and in my state, what was described by the OP would be construed as neglect and therefore be illegal. Not vaxxing is not illegal where I live. So the law is completely on my side. If it were not, I would move, if I could not move, then I would abide by the laws of the land. If someone is concerned about my parenting and called CPS on me, I know how to treat the situation and so I do not feel threatened by that possibility.
post #74 of 156
Excellent posts, Britishmum, Wemoon, and Asherah!

Consider, according to many in mainstream America:

Not vaxing = medical neglect

Not using western medicine = medical neglect

Cosleeping = sexual abuse and a major safety concern

Extended breastfeeding = sexual abuse

Homeschooling (especially unschooling) = neglect

Babywearing = abuse


Numerous MDC members have had CPS called on them (or they were threatened with the possibility) for many of these things!

There are a lot of people at MDC who talk about the "it takes a village" concept. It takes a village to look out for each other, to keep an eye on the children, and to lend a helping hand when needed. By so quickly rushing to the phone to call CPS, you destroy that village, and you encourage government agencies to determine proper parenting practices. Do you really think that a government will decide that the alternative parenting methods that many of us practice are "proper"?
post #75 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by asherah View Post
Uh, no, it is the kidnapper's fault. Always.
It doesn't have to be just one person's "fault". The kidnapper is more in the wrong, the parent may also be in the wrong. Why are we so afraid to ever take blame for anything in our society? I think it is because we are judgemental in general and we do not forgive nor do we expect forgiveness. You know what, I think it's understandable for parent's to make mistakes, but I don't have a problem with believing that they do, either. Me, I judge people's actions, but I don't judge the person. I think parents need to take reasonable precautions to keep their children safe. If they do not, than it is at least partially their fault if something bad happens.
post #76 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by lotusdebi View Post
Excellent posts, Britishmum, Wemoon, and Asherah!

Consider, according to many in mainstream America:

Not vaxing = medical neglect

Not using western medicine = medical neglect

Cosleeping = sexual abuse and a major safety concern

Extended breastfeeding = sexual abuse

Homeschooling (especially unschooling) = neglect

Babywearing = abuse


Numerous MDC members have had CPS called on them (or they were threatened with the possibility) for many of these things!

There are a lot of people at MDC who talk about the "it takes a village" concept. It takes a village to look out for each other, to keep an eye on the children, and to lend a helping hand when needed. By so quickly rushing to the phone to call CPS, you destroy that village, and you encourage government agencies to determine proper parenting practices. Do you really think that a government will decide that the alternative parenting methods that many of us practice are "proper"?
Where I live, all of the above listed activities are protected. That is why I live here. And I am active in doing my duty as a citizen to protect those rights.

If you are so at odds with YOUR government's laws, which may differ, I suppose, from mine, than you ought to move if you are able. If you really cannot move, because you are being held against your will, or because there is nowhere you can move to where you agree with the laws of the land, than I am truly sorry for you, because that would be a terrible situation (and one that I think may be coming in the future . . . but I don't see it happening where I am yet anyway.)

Also, I don't think most mainstreamers even think the above listed activities are abusive. I think they think they are wierd, but very few, in my experience, actually think they are abusive. Again, perhaps it is a regional distinction? I live in New England if it makes a difference.
post #77 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by lotusdebi View Post
There are a lot of people at MDC who talk about the "it takes a village" concept. It takes a village to look out for each other, to keep an eye on the children, and to lend a helping hand when needed. By so quickly rushing to the phone to call CPS, you destroy that village, and you encourage government agencies to determine proper parenting practices. Do you really think that a government will decide that the alternative parenting methods that many of us practice are "proper"?
BTW, I should clarify, I don't believe it takes a village to raise a child (all it takes is one good, loving family), and I do not call CPS on a whim. I can't stand CPS personally and I believe they tend to be corrupt. However, we must do what we can to protect children, and the majority (even among the posters here on MDC) seem to think that it is quite obviously very dangerous to let a three-year-old child wander outside unsupervised.
post #78 of 156
I live in Maryland, if it makes a difference. And, people in the USA have been targetted by their fellow citizens and by CPS for many of those things I listed. Whether or not they're legal makes no difference in many cases. Welcome to America!
Oh, and in my little part of America, letting a 3 year old walk to a neighbor's house isn't considered neglectful. It's the norm here in my neighborhood. And none of the kids in my little neighborhood has been abducted for as long as I've been here.
Additional things that are the NORM in my neighborhood that many people here at MDC have issues with:

Letting kids play in their yards (front and back) without direct supervision
5 year olds riding bikes in the streets with just older kids supervising
6 year olds and up crossing streets and walking to the library

What's not the norm? People like me. People who practice attachment parenting and natural family living. I would never advertise my child's vax status to my neighbors, nor would I breastfeed a 2+ year old where they could see. Why? Because some of them may be a bit too much like some of the people here on this thread. They may judge me based on their own beliefs of what constitutes "good parenting." And they may call CPS as a result. And, though I know what to do if CPS shows up at my door ( http://www.fightcpspackets.info/Pare...TheSystem.html ), I'd really rather not have to deal with it and take the chance that my child will be separated from me for ANY length of time WHATSOEVER. I know better than to trust the system. It doesn't always work.

My concept of "it takes a village" is that my neighbors will keep an eye out for my child just as I'll keep an eye out for their children. Our kids play together, and we talk to the kids if they're being too rough, and to parents if the kids are having some sort of problems. I raise my child by my beliefs and in my style, but my neighbors may see something that I don't, and they can step in to correct my child if he's becoming too rough and hurting someone, and let me know if he's getting into trouble. I do the same for them. When 3 and 4 year olds are left outside to play on the sidewalk, I'll keep an eye out for them if I'm concerned about their safety. That's a part of my responsibility to my community.
post #79 of 156
To the OP-
While walking down the street may be a bit excessive for a 3 year old, you don't know how this girl has been taught. My kids play outside. Goo is allowed to play ALONE in the yard. We have rules and if she leaves the yard, she must come in. She has never broken the rules. Goo also knows not to go with someone she doesn't know. She knows never to go in a car with someone I haven't approved of even if she does know them. You just don't know what that family has done to teach their child to be safe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LionTigerBear View Post
It doesn't have to be just one person's "fault". The kidnapper is more in the wrong, the parent may also be in the wrong. Why are we so afraid to ever take blame for anything in our society? I think it is because we are judgemental in general and we do not forgive nor do we expect forgiveness. You know what, I think it's understandable for parent's to make mistakes, but I don't have a problem with believing that they do, either. Me, I judge people's actions, but I don't judge the person. I think parents need to take reasonable precautions to keep their children safe. If they do not, than it is at least partially their fault if something bad happens.
"reasonable precautions"? Reasonable to whom? To you? Should we not allow a child out of our sight until they are 18? We have to allow our children room to learn and to grow without us over their shoulder every minute. Part of reasonable precautions is to teach our children how to be safe without being on top of them every minute.

And don't forget that the MAJORITY of child abductions are by parents... PARENTS not strangers. Yes, stranger and neighbor abductions occur, but at a far lesser rate that car fatalities...(something a lot of us put our children at risk for EVERYDAY!)
post #80 of 156
Those things are in the norm where I live too (europe). My son has played outside unsupervised with the neighborhood kids since he was 4.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lotusdebi View Post
I
Oh, and in my little part of America, letting a 3 year old walk to a neighbor's house isn't considered neglectful. It's the norm here in my neighborhood. And none of the kids in my little neighborhood has been abducted for as long as I've been here.
Additional things that are the NORM in my neighborhood that many people here at MDC have issues with:

Letting kids play in their yards (front and back) without direct supervision
5 year olds riding bikes in the streets with just older kids supervising
6 year olds and up crossing streets and walking to the library
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