Do you think this is fair? - Page 3

[Irishmommy]

At that age, if they are friends enough to invite to a party, they are friends enough to know each other's addresses to either mail or hand deliver invites.

[MillingNome]

There is no rule at either of dc's schools. My personal policy with dd has been you pretty much what you said:

1. Invite all girls and give invites in class

or

2. Email, discreetly hand to, mail or what not to those you want there.


I also have encouraged dd to have all the girls over, especially when she would invite almost everyone already. I backed off last year. She did not have everyone over to the house. This year, all in her class were invited to go bowling and then all the girls were given the option to sleep-over. FTR, dd is in a k-8 school and most of the kids have been there forever

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Kirsten

What kind of CIA schools do some kids go to that you don't know last names of the kids, have no school directory or class list, anything? I have three kids - they have been in (counting....) six different preschools and elementaries. Every one gave us a class list, if not the whole school directory. It is one typed page for the class, and can be emailed out - how hard is that?

We got a class list when ds1 was in kindergarten through...grade three, maybe? But, it didn't have phone numbers or parent's names, which aren't always the same as the kids, of course.

I'd never even heard of a school directory until a few months ago - here. If my son's school had had one, I'd have probably asked to be left out of it, if possible.

I find it odd that some feel handing out at school is their only option. If your child knows the other kid enough to want to invite them, I'd think you could call or email the mom and say "I'm Suzy's mom from this and such school and Suzy wants to invite Jimmy to her birthday party. Can I have your address to mail the invitation?" - or email to send the evite.

Actual enveloped invites are rare where we live. Most people just do evites now. Easy.

How on earth does my kid knowing a kid well enough to want to invite them to a party equal me having his/her parent's name, phone number or email address? I didn't even have the internet when ds1's 5th and 6th birthdays rolled around, so an evite wasn't a possibility. I know there were several of his classmates who didn't even own computers, with or without net access.

Well - it's obviously a different perspective - mailing invitations for a kid's party would have never occurred to me, as invitations were always handed out in class when I was in school.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by DoctorGirlfriend

It was in place for my grade school, in the early 80s.

Wow. I'd never, ever heard of it befoe, and between me, my friend's kids, and my own kids, we've had people pretty constantly in the school system here since the mid-70s.

[oldgirl,newtricks]

The first time your child is crying because they have been left out, maybe some that don't think it's a big deal will understand. Would you go to playgroup and announce that you are having a party, but you are only going to invite mom #1, mom #6, and mom #4? No, of course not. That would be terrible rude and insensitive. Same with the birthday parties.

Mail, hand deliver or call them, please.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by oldgirl,newtricks

The first time your child is crying because they have been left out, maybe some that don't think it's a big deal will understand. Would you go to playgroup and announce that you are having a party, but you are only going to invite mom #1, mom #6, and mom #4? No, of course not. That would be terrible rude and insensitive. Same with the birthday parties.

Mail, hand deliver or call them, please.

If "mom #1, mom #6, mom #4" and I were in the habit of hanging out outside of the playgroup, why not? How is it rude and insensitive to have close friends within a larger group?

Are you guys telling me that if four moms from a playgroup you belonged to were close friends, you'd feel left out if they had a party without you?

Okay - sorry - really out of here, now - not getting this one at all...and I have, as I've said, been left out plenty. I even used to cry about it - but not over special occasions...the day-to-day meanness was what cut to the quick.

[teastaigh]

Etiquette is etiquette.
It isn't a law or a rule.
It's socially accepted and preferred behavior.
Having good manners is a real blessing.
Teaching them to our children is a gift.

This is from Business Week magazine, March 16, 2006, in an article
written by Liz Ryan:

"Keep invitations private -- or include everyone.
Remember in fourth grade, how you weren't allowed to hand out your birthday party invitations in class? Schools make these rules so that no one will feel left out. It's no different in the corporate world. If you walk up to three people and say to two of them, "So, Stan and Judy, want to grab some lunch?" you are saying loudly to the other person, "You are chopped liver." It's incredibly rude. If you are Stan or Judy, smile brightly and say, "I'm only going if Diana goes, too."

Keeping invitations private or including everyone is good etiquette as is writing thank you notes, saying "please" and "thank you," and not flossing or cleaning your ears in public.

Many good and kind people do not practice good manners. It doesn't make them not good and kind people. It does make them insensitive. It also means that they may, inadvertently, hurt other people.

On the other hand, good manners truly create a good impression. They can also bring sunshine to someone else's day. They also help foster self-esteem and a nicer world. Yes, there are serious creeps and dangerous criminals with good manners. In general, I think we do our children a real favor if we teach them minimally polite and expected behavior.

Again, manners and how I treat others are also things that I think I need to always be improving.

peace,
teastaigh

[Storm Bride]

Well, the net result of having read this thread is that I no longer want to accept any invitations that come my way, if anyone else is around...because I have no desire to be a "pity" invite. Ick.

I'd much, much, much rather have the people I'm talking to be invited out to lunch, than have someone "include" me because their friends happened to be talking to me. Would any of you actually be upset if someone invited their friends to lunch and didn't include you? Would you feel that made you "chopped liver"?

Oh - and in the cited situation in the article - if I were "Diana", I'd be about 100% more mortified by the "good manners" of "I'm only going if Diana goes, too" than I ever would be by someone wanting to spend their time with the people they enjoy spending their time with. I'd feel like a charity case. So, by following the "good manners" in the article, someone may inadvertently hurt me.

We had a girl in grade seven that nobody liked, including me. I always tried to be nice to her, so I didn't hurt her feelings. I ended up spending a good chunk of that year trying to pry her off me with a crowbar. She was annoying and wouldn't leave me alone - ever. She practically followed me to the bathroom. I'm sure it was because I was her only "friend", but it drove me crazy. In the end, I had to tell her, as politely as possible, to just go away and leave me alone. I ended up hurting her worse than anybody else in the class ever did, because I turned her into a charity case. These things aren't so simple.

[Momtoatweenandteen]

[QUOTE=Storm Bride;6989857]Well...probably because it never would have occurred to me that anybody's feelings would be hurt by not being invited to a birthday party of soemone they weren't friends with... QUOTE]

Storm Bride, if the child/children weren't part of the group of the birthday child and they were skipped over, that's one thing, but how about the child who might feel he/she is a part of that group, doesn't get an invitation and feels left out? At this age, the exclusion game can be hurtful!

[anubis]

Anything can be done in a hurtful manner. Yes, the exclusion game exists. It exists in the cafeteria when the kids you thought you were friends with won't sit in the same table with you. Ban school lunch? It exists in recess when the other kids don't want to play with you. Ban games? I just don't see where it ends if we keep banning things that might hurt someone's feelings.

I was never a popular kid, I had very few friends at school. Sometimes I was excluded from things. Sometimes it did hurt. You know what my mum said? She asked me if I really wanted to be friends with people who deliberately hurt my feelings. And yes, that lesson took some time to learn, it didn't help right then and there. But it did sink in, eventually. I want to teach my kids the skills to handle people who hurt them. Overmore, I want them to find friends who try not to. The kid that gets off on excluding someone from their party will find a way to go on that particular power trip somehow. Birthday party invitations are just one means to that.

[Momtoatweenandteen]

Originally Posted by anubis

Anything can be done in a hurtful manner. Yes, the exclusion game exists. It exists in the cafeteria when the kids you thought you were friends with won't sit in the same table with you. Ban school lunch? It exists in recess when the other kids don't want to play with you. Ban games? I just don't see where it ends if we keep banning things that might hurt someone's feelings.

I was never a popular kid, I had very few friends at school. Sometimes I was excluded from things. Sometimes it did hurt. You know what my mum said? She asked me if I really wanted to be friends with people who deliberately hurt my feelings. And yes, that lesson took some time to learn, it didn't help right then and there. But it did sink in, eventually. I want to teach my kids the skills to handle people who hurt them. Overmore, I want them to find friends who try not to. The kid that gets off on excluding someone from their party will find a way to go on that particular power trip somehow. Birthday party invitations are just one means to that.

Point well taken to everything you stated! And your right, it never ends.

Please know that I'm not being fanatic about this, and you are so "right on" that it happens in different scenarios (in school) as you had mentioned. But keep in mind that this is a school rule, not mine; however, I'm still going to stick to my guns and believe that being thoughtful is never a bad thing.


By the way, I love the way your own mother handled these situations...I try to do the same with my daughter. And even though others may choose to go the other route, I try to teach my daughter, just the same, to be sensitive to other's feelings.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by anubis

Anything can be done in a hurtful manner. Yes, the exclusion game exists. It exists in the cafeteria when the kids you thought you were friends with won't sit in the same table with you. Ban school lunch? It exists in recess when the other kids don't want to play with you. Ban games? I just don't see where it ends if we keep banning things that might hurt someone's feelings.

I was never a popular kid, I had very few friends at school. Sometimes I was excluded from things. Sometimes it did hurt. You know what my mum said? She asked me if I really wanted to be friends with people who deliberately hurt my feelings. And yes, that lesson took some time to learn, it didn't help right then and there. But it did sink in, eventually. I want to teach my kids the skills to handle people who hurt them. Overmore, I want them to find friends who try not to. The kid that gets off on excluding someone from their party will find a way to go on that particular power trip somehow. Birthday party invitations are just one means to that.

This is more-or-less what I've been trying to say - only said much more effectively.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Momtoatweenandteen

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

Well...probably because it never would have occurred to me that anybody's feelings would be hurt by not being invited to a birthday party of soemone they weren't friends with...

Storm Bride, if the child/children weren't part of the group of the birthday child and they were skipped over, that's one thing, but how about the child who might feel he/she is a part of that group, doesn't get an invitation and feels left out? At this age, the exclusion game can be hurtful!

If ds1 and his friends (as an example) decided to exclude 'J' from their group, by not inviting him to a party or anything else, 'J' would know about it, regardless of how they handled it. He know when all of his friends have their birthdays. He'd know they were being hurtful and mean...whether or not they handed out invititations in front of him. This rule isn't going to prevent any hurt feelings - when kids are being deliberately exclusionary, they'll find a way to make sure their target knows he/she is being shut out.

DS1 was once told, "you're not invited to my party, because gifted kids aren't cool". Having the boy in question hand out his invitations in the hallway or mail them is completely ineffective against that kind of shut out. Of course ds1 was hurt - he was supposed to be - that was the whole point.

[Laggie]

I know from my own experiences how difficult it can be socially when you are trying to invite some friends to an event and not others. I got married last year and it was very sticky in my social circle for awhile (we were not able to invite ALL of our friends.)

Of course I would try not to talk about the wedding in front of people who were not invited, but inevitably other people would bring it up and I would feel awful... in one case a friend who was NOT invited actually asked me point blank if he was invited or not, in front of somebody who WAS. I had to say that no, unfortunately we were not able to invite everyone we wanted to... He is still hurt by that. It's very hard to be told you don't rank high enough for an invitation to a party. I would never dream of purposely making somebody feel that way.

Sure, it *might* be okay if I talked about a party in front of people who did not think they were my friends, but I'd rather not underline the fact that I don't like them that much - that seems really insensitive to me.

At the elementary school level, I think the idea is to try to get kids to at least consider that it would be better to avoid hurting people's feelings. Sure, the non-invited kids might find out about the party anyway, but at least the school is trying to teach some sort of empathy and consideration! If the child is inviting only the kids he/she plays with, it should be easy for them to hand out invites without doing it in front of anyone who would be upset by it.

And yes, even though I am friends with one co-worker and not the other, I would try not to invite him out for drinks or whatever in front of the excluded one. It's just awkward and I think it is impolite to make people feel awkward if you can prevent it...

[anubis]

Originally Posted by Momtoatweenandteen

Please know that I'm not being fanatic about this, and you are so "right on" that it happens in different scenarios (in school) as you had mentioned. But keep in mind that this is a school rule, not mine; however, I'm still going to stick to my guns and believe that being thoughtful is never a bad thing.


By the way, I love the way your own mother handled these situations...I try to do the same with my daughter. And even though others may choose to go the other route, I try to teach my daughter, just the same, to be sensitive to other's feelings.

I totally agree that if it already is a school rule, I wouldn't go fighting with the school about that. It's not really that big of an issue either way. I agree that being thoughtful is a good thing, great thing actually, but I would much prefer if parents taught their kids to be thoughtful instead of having to ban things for the mere reason that a lot of parents don't. I hope that my children and yours show that example at school and all walks of life, maybe making up for some other parents' shortcomings in that regard Hopefully other kids can make up for my shortcomings too

And yeah, I'm proud of my mother. She did well for a very low-income single mama with too few supportive people in her life

[lalaland42]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

If ds1 and his friends (as an example) decided to exclude 'J' from their group, by not inviting him to a party or anything else, 'J' would know about it, regardless of how they handled it. He know when all of his friends have their birthdays. He'd know they were being hurtful and mean...whether or not they handed out invititations in front of him. This rule isn't going to prevent any hurt feelings - when kids are being deliberately exclusionary, they'll find a way to make sure their target knows he/she is being shut out.

DS1 was once told, "you're not invited to my party, because gifted kids aren't cool". Having the boy in question hand out his invitations in the hallway or mail them is completely ineffective against that kind of shut out. Of course ds1 was hurt - he was supposed to be - that was the whole point.

What about this. 'J' is told to his face that he is not invited because he is not cool enough. 'J's reaction to the direct insult is as important as the slight. On the other hand, 'J' doesn't get an invite but sees other kids with invites in the hall. 'J' then goes home and tells his mom all about it and they work out the feelings together. After thought and contemplation 'J' can address the situation with the other kid if he wants but regardless he is not put on the spot.

The situation with DS1 is just like giving the invite in front of him. He was told that he will not be invited, just because the paper part was done in private doesn't make the "invite" any less public.

I used to work with my best friend of 10 years and we never invited eachother to lunch without inviting everyone else within earshot. That *is* rude. Although DD is still young, she does go to Montessori school and the parents give the invitations to the woman who works at the front desk and she sends them with the kids at dismissal.

Oh, and I just polled DH and he thinks it is rude to exclude people to their face too. In case that matters.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by lalaland42

The situation with DS1 is just like giving the invite in front of him. He was told that he will not be invited, just because the paper part was done in private doesn't make the "invite" any less public.

How is it the same? DS1 never expected to be invited to this kid's party and wouldn't have cared. He didn't expect to be singled out in front of the whole class and told that he, specifically, wasn't being invited because he wasn't cool. (There were only five kids out of 20 invited - nobody else got singled out, though.)

I used to work with my best friend of 10 years and we never invited eachother to lunch without inviting everyone else within earshot. That *is* rude.

Okay - to each their own. If I got invited to lunch by someone who was obviously going out to lunch with a friend, and didn't invite me to lunch at other times, I'd feel slapped in the face. I don't think a "pity" invite is polite. I think it sets the other person up to feel as though they have a friend that they don't actually have...as did the girl in my 7th grade class that I mentioned above.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by lalaland42

What about this. 'J' is told to his face that he is not invited because he is not cool enough. 'J's reaction to the direct insult is as important as the slight. On the other hand, 'J' doesn't get an invite but sees other kids with invites in the hall. 'J' then goes home and tells his mom all about it and they work out the feelings together. After thought and contemplation 'J' can address the situation with the other kid if he wants but regardless he is not put on the spot.

I'm also not getting your point here. If 'J' has been excluded, he's been excluded. You seem to be saying that handing out invitations in front of him gives him the opportunity to talk it out with his mom. But...I thought the handing out invititations in front of others was what we were talking about in the first place.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Laggie

Sure, it *might* be okay if I talked about a party in front of people who did not think they were my friends, but I'd rather not underline the fact that I don't like them that much - that seems really insensitive to me.

Why? Surely, playing with the same kids every recess and lunch hour, hanging out with those kids every day after school, and having sleepovers and all that makes it pretty obvious which people you like the best??

Since when does "not one of my close friends" equal "don't like them that much", anyway? There are lots of people I like quite well, but that doesn't mean I'm going to invite them to my birthday party. I celebrate with close friends and family - as does my ds1 - and, in general, I think anybody who doesn't fit into that category already knows it.

[DoctorGirlfriend]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

If I got invited to lunch by someone who was obviously going out to lunch with a friend, and didn't invite me to lunch at other times, I'd feel slapped in the face. I don't think a "pity" invite is polite. I think it sets the other person up to feel as though they have a friend that they don't actually have...as did the girl in my 7th grade class that I mentioned above.

Why would you feel insulted for that? Why would you assume that it was a pity invite?