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Would you let a 13yo boy babysit? - Page 7

post #121 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
Quote? That is not what I said. I said that being as or more concerned with men being 'judged' as with women and children being sexually abused is misogynist.
Okay. I misrembered what you said when I made my earlier post. I just don't see people's posts in this thread as being more concerned with men being judged as they are with women and children being abused. B



Quote:
Ugh. I'm sorry. I said that women do not statistically abuse nearly as much as men do, and I believe that to be true. This woman did not abuse you. She did unfortunately provide conditions for it to happen, which women do in many different ways. Which sucks, and needs to change.

I see minimizing the reality of sexual abuse of children by men also as aiding and abeting. Although not nearly to the degree that you experienced.
My grandmother didn't sexually abuse me, but she absolutely did abuse me. She did worse to one of my cousins. This girl was helping grandpa pee - holding his penis for him - she'd always been told to obey her elders, and he'd asked for help. (He was paralyzed on one side, and couldn't manage by himself.) She was about four or five. Grandma walked in, started screaming at the "dirty little girl", and left he sitting in a bathtub for a very long time, after scrubbing her violently with a brush.

She also forced us all to kiss our grandpa goodnight and goodbye. (He didn't care, one way or the other.) Can you imagine, as a small child, being forced to kiss a man who 1) was routinely sexually abusing you at night, and 2) usually had spittle full of cookie crumbs running down one side of his chin, from the paralysis? That's not direct sexual abuse, but given her knowledge of his night-time activities, it was still sexual abuse, imo. (I freely admit that my opinion of this kind of situation is shaped by my experience, and my experiences do seem to be a bit out of the ordinary.)

Quote:
Very true. It is always a risk. I think it needs to be a calculated risk, and for me that calculation includes the statistical reality that heterosexually-identified men are perps more often than anyone else.
Fair enough. I misunderstood your posts to mean that you wouldn't even consider a boy (possibly mixing you up with other posters).

Quote:
Crappy but true.
Yeah, that.
post #122 of 343
I have dated 3 different guys whose FIRST sexual encounter was with FEMALE babysitters! I haven't read but a few responses, but unfortunately, sexual misconduct can happen with babysitters - male or female.
post #123 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsElle07 View Post
Nope. Absolutely not.

You should read the book "Protecting the Gift" by Gavin DeBecker... in it, he talks about one of the best ways you can avoid having your children become the victim of sexual abuse (which, unfortunately, something like 1 in 3 girls are) is to not allow them to have male caregivers. Most people are abused by someone their mother trusts.

Not to cast aspersions on this boy -- he is probably a lovely young man. I just think it's a wise policy to have.
I agree!
post #124 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viewfinder View Post
So, yes, don't judge based on gender, but don't turn off your intuition based on not wanting to judge based on gender, because that might be all your head can tell you: "It's because he's a boy/man." If your intuition says "no," don't question yourself about why it's saying no.
."
I agree with you. While I don't think that knowing statistics necessarily keeps my child safe, I agree a healthy dose of realism (statistics) PLUS gut is needed.


I should not say, I will let just ANY female babysit my kid since she will be safer and ignore my gut. I don't think anyone would. But, I'm also not willing to write off 49% of the population as potential predators. Dss had a wonderful male kindergarten teacher, I am glad he didn't miss that oppurtunity.
post #125 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdedmom View Post
I have to say that I am not foolish for protecting my sons from pedophiles. Do you know how to identify molesters?
Well, honestly, I can't say that I could tell identify a male pedophile or a female pedophile. But I do leave my children with people I trust. That is really the best I can do. Every time I see undercover footage of a babysitter slapping and abusing the child she is caring for, it has been female. That terrifies me. As a mama, I guess there is always the worry, but I do the best I can.
post #126 of 343

Choosing the victim...

Quote:
Originally Posted by oceanbaby View Post
Well, it is a reality, I agree with you there. And I'm certainly not talking about blindly sending your children off with anyone. But I think the subtle messages we send to children absolutely to have an effect. From everything I have read about molestation, perpetrators look for easier victims, children who are less likely to tell, or are scared, or have low self esteem.
I wonder what cues they are discerning in the infant set? How can they tell which infants are going to be the easier victim, which ones will be less likely to tell, which ones are scared, or have low self-esteem?

In the case of my two year old daughter, the reason that pervert preschool teacher, just graduated college in early childhood education, btw--the reason he didn't pick her, is because I didn't give him the chance. The kids who he did pick were all 2 and under. I wonder how he chose his victims? "Hmm, which of these tots in diapers has less self-esteem? Which one is less likely to rat me out to his/her parents?"

I understand the desire to find a reason a molester chooses who they do, so you can teach your kids NOT to be that reason... it's in your desire to feel some control over this hideous thing. But you may be doing something I am sure you do not intend, because you espouse ideals of non-judgment toward young men for just being male. You're judging victims of molestation as being somehow less-than, somehow having attracted abuse to themselves with weakness... . I am sure you did not intend this or fully think it through... . While it certainly cannot be overlooked that victims are often re-victimized, and there are depths to plumb as to why they are... what needs to be focused on here is avoiding a FIRST victimization.

It used to be said of rape victims that they asked for it, they dressed trampy, they went out at night: and it turns out, rapists choose their victims for all sorts of reasons: they are blonde, they are short, they are tall, they are a certain age, they look like his ex-wife, they look like the girl in high school who rebuffed him, etc.. It doesn't matter if she dresses trampy or corporate, or seems "weak," or "scared," or what he thinks her self-esteem is. What matters is HIM, and HIS problem, not her. The same holds up for molesters of children. They all have different issues, and have various m.o.'s.

Molesters ARE all opportunists; they create it, or grab it when it comes their way. Given the opportunity, they will most likely act. The preschool teacher CREATED his opportunity, and chose almost ALL of his students. Lots of children do fight off molesters or attackers, either successfully or unsuccessfully... they clearly weren't "weak," yet, they were chosen.

Please mamas, please don't make the mistake of believing that if you are raising your child to be strong of mind and heart, to tell you if anyone messes with them, to believe in themselves and their personal power, that they are immune to attack, or that they will tell you. I know of infant victims-INFANTS! I know many more who were tots when first attacked.

As for telling you, if the molester has convinced the child he will murder you, the victim's parents, and your other children if the victim tells... that threat coupled with a possibly agonizingly painful violation of their body, and heiness disfiguring of that child's ENTIRE worldview is going to be a powerful argument against telling you... it might cause amnesia... yes, it well might, and does every day of the week and twice on Sundays. It may cause such amnesia, that the victim happily gets into the same car with the same pervert "nice" uncle to go to the lake again like every summer before, even when the child gets molested there every single time. Seen it. It happens.

Let me close by saying that I have a couple of 20 yr old nephews who were wonderful babysitters; learned excellent childcare from their daddies. Young men can do it, and can certainly be worthy of trust with children. It's great for the little kiddies, too, to see examples of boy babysitters, definitely. One of them just joined the military. Fine young men. I am 100% sure that if they were involved in this very conversation that they would say: "We understand why we may be judged... it is not without cause. We cannot change history or the statistics of the past, but we're going to try to change the future." They wouldn't probably use those words, but they would say the same thing. Young men are mostly a lot more perceptive that we're maybe giving them credit for on this issue.
post #127 of 343
I find this thread very sad . It seems gender bias is alive and well on mothering.com

Here's a new thread:

Should I hire a 13 year old AA child to babysit? I haven't met him / her, but I know statistically AA are more likely to be involved in violent crimes, so maybe I better not risk it. Oh, and when I was younger the kid who bullied me was AA too (and I am NOT making light of sexual abuse, just trying to point out that bias is bias).

Better not have any NA either, because tehy are more likely to have a problem with achohol. And let's rule out the poor white girls too, statistically they are more likely to be involved in "bad stuff" than middle class white girls.

Let's turn the argument around to women say... 50 - 100 years ago. A lot of men thought women couldn't make a good decision to vote. I could just see an employer.

Well, it was between a man and a women for the math teacher job, and as much as I would love to have a female role model for the girls, statistically more men are better math teachers and do better in science, and I can't risk having someone in there who can't keep high standards, so the man gets the job.

I think it's really sad that we are judging people on their sex or their race before we even meet them. And I agree about how girl babysitters can certainly be emotionally abusive, and how you need to know your sitter, not just his or her gender / race / poverty level / religion / etc.
post #128 of 343
Quote:
I think it's really sad that we are judging people on their sex or their race before we even meet them. And I agree about how girl babysitters can certainly be emotionally abusive, and how you need to know your sitter, not just his or her gender / race / poverty level / religion / etc.
I agree completely. It's not whether the sitter is a boy or a girl, it's the age, how well you know them, etc. numerous different variables that have nothing to do with gender.

I have had a 12 year old boy babysit my son (he's almost 2 1/2 now and this was when he was around 18 months). He's 13 now and I would not hesistate to call him if I was in need of a sitter, it just normally works out that I have family to babysit for me. This boy is an awesome babysitter and even though he's young I trust him completely. He's the middle-youngest of 4 kids, his mom has run a home daycare for longer than he's been around, and so he's always had lots of experience with young children and babies. When he babysits I also know someone in his family would be at home for him to call in case he needed help and couldn't reach me. I am also friends with his mother and I know them through my church. So there are lots of reasons why I am confortable with him as a sitter. My son absolutely adores him, but also, it depends on what situation I need a sitter for. For how long, what time of day/night, etc.

If someone were to recommend a 13 year old sitter, regardless of sex, but I had never met them or their family it would definitely be a different situation, because of not knowing the person. I certainly think it's ridiculous to write someone off as a potential caregiver based on their gender.

Kate
single student mama to Owen (aged 2 1/2)
post #129 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by RachelEve14 View Post
I find this thread very sad . It seems gender bias is alive and well on mothering.com

Here's a new thread:

Should I hire a 13 year old AA child to babysit? I haven't met him / her, but I know statistically AA are more likely to be involved in violent crimes, so maybe I better not risk it. Oh, and when I was younger the kid who bullied me was AA too (and I am NOT making light of sexual abuse, just trying to point out that bias is bias).

Better not have any NA either, because tehy are more likely to have a problem with achohol. And let's rule out the poor white girls too, statistically they are more likely to be involved in "bad stuff" than middle class white girls.

Let's turn the argument around to women say... 50 - 100 years ago. A lot of men thought women couldn't make a good decision to vote. I could just see an employer.

Well, it was between a man and a women for the math teacher job, and as much as I would love to have a female role model for the girls, statistically more men are better math teachers and do better in science, and I can't risk having someone in there who can't keep high standards, so the man gets the job.

I think it's really sad that we are judging people on their sex or their race before we even meet them. And I agree about how girl babysitters can certainly be emotionally abusive, and how you need to know your sitter, not just his or her gender / race / poverty level / religion / etc.

Thank You!
post #130 of 343
Oy. I see the 'reverse sexism' argument has been pulled out now. I was wondering when that would become the focus. :
post #131 of 343
I think there have been valid points brought up on both sides of this debate, but for me I still cannot justify judging someone based on their gender.
My experience was no where near what atrocities that some have gone through, for me it was a matter of timing...the previous weekend my parents had provided me with a book on Saying No (part of a It's Ok To Say No series) and sat me down and we had an open and honest discussion about appropriate and inappropriate touch and trusting your feelings...as in when it feels wrong it probably is and so on. My caregiver's husband, who I should never have been left alone with anyway because my mom was paying her not her husband to watch me, approached me with touch and trying to convince me to disrobe so he could play a tickle game...I knew it was wrong and firmly told him No over and over and over and basically kept my distance. It was a long hour and when my mother returned at the end of the day I told her I did not want to go there to be babysat anymore (she listened to my desire to be out, as she always did, and found me a new sitter). I wish feverently that I had told her why....but they did not fully prepare me for the mind game of "You can't tell anyone because if you do they won't believe you and they'll punish you for telling terrible lies", I don't think any parent can really prepare you for that, I did tell her a few years later what happened, but unfortunately they could not be found to prosecute or get his daughter away from him. In my entire life, that is probably my biggest regret, but at the same time I was 4...I could not possibly be expected to realize that my staying silent meant I was leaving his daughter behind to be hurt. The man who tried to molest me was balding. And for many years I was uneasy around men who were balding because of the association. Then at 16 I realized why I was so uneasy around men with this certain look (brown balding hair, tallish and slender), and realized that it was unfair to paint all balding men with that brush.
Many people have backed up their arguments by mentioning statistics...the thing about statistics is that you have to be careful about the data collection, and have to be sure that your stats are coming from reliable sources. Not to sound rude, so hard to judge typing, but I would really like to see where these numbers come from, so I can see them for myself where they come from. I am trying to find actual numbers online but not having much luck.
There is another stat, sorry I do not have a source I have tried to find one with no luck, but it seems to be a theme in every story I have ever heard regarding abusers, that says many abusers were abused as children. So if you go by that theory, that abused children tend to grow up into abusers....then if you know that someone was hurt as a child, should you leave your child in their care? If you are saying men are more likely to abuse, well by that very same theory, then you can't get a victim to watch your child either.
Also there have been many scandals of Priests victimizing young boys...are you going to prevent your sons from doing church activities because of a few evil men disguised as Priests?
My husband asked me to add this; "Let's say that 92% of molesters are white males between the ages of 23-50. That does not mean that 92% of white males between the ages of 23-50 are molesters." (note; the number he uses here does not come from an actual statistic, he just grabbed a random number. He is also quite fond of saying "37% of statistics are made up on the spot").
Just some points I wanted to make, sorry it's so long. It's just hurtful to think that my brothers, both caring responsible young men who would never ever do anything inappropriate to a child, could be unfairly judged by attitudes similar to those voiced here. It's upsetting to me to think of anyone being judged sight unseen because of their race, gender, socio-economic status. I am not talking about those moments when you meet someone, converse with them and feel uneasy but are not sure why. Of course in those moments you should trust your instincts. But to say across the board "No, never a male babysitter, not my child, no way" is just flat-out wrong in my honest opinion.
post #132 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by lesley&grace View Post
My experience was no where near what atrocities that some have gone through, for me it was a matter of timing...the previous weekend my parents had provided me with a book on Saying No (part of a It's Ok To Say No series) and sat me down and we had an open and honest discussion about appropriate and inappropriate touch and trusting your feelings...as in when it feels wrong it probably is and so on.
Wow, that is good timing, and I'm so glad your mother listened to you. Thank goodness. Also interesting what you have to say about the "they won't believe you" game. I'm going to make sure my kiddo *knows* I will believe her. What a crap mindgame.

Quote:
Many people have backed up their arguments by mentioning statistics...the thing about statistics is that you have to be careful about the data collection, and have to be sure that your stats are coming from reliable sources. Not to sound rude, so hard to judge typing, but I would really like to see where these numbers come from,
The statistics are borne out by my personal experience, so for me I don't really care about the statistics. They are useful in an argument, but only a small part of what I base my decisions on. They simply confirm for me that my experience is consistent with a larger reality.


Quote:
My husband asked me to add this; "Let's say that 92% of molesters are white males between the ages of 23-50. That does not mean that 92% of white males between the ages of 23-50 are molesters."
I have heard that on this thread before, and IMO it doesn't matter at all. If 1 in 3 girls are molested, most by straight men, I don't care if he's assaulted 25 other people or none, statistically it doesn't matter if 92% of men are abusers or if the 30% just get around a lot.
post #133 of 343
Lets also add you do not here about girls molesting people because stastically it happens less, we arn't told because it is not shared very often, but it does happen a lot, just like men who beat their wives, it's shared, but just a lot of women beat their DH as well, but we hardly ever hear about it.
post #134 of 343
Thread Starter 
Hmm, too much to quote and not enough time.

Regarding the "Would I let an AA person babysit?" I thought of this analogy, but it doesn't hold up. The reason there is a hesitation is because most sexual predators are men. If most sexual predators were AA, then that might be a concern, but as far as I know that is not a valid fear. I've never believed that AA are more violent than white people. More might be in prison, but that's because of our screwed up justice system. I do, however, believe that most molestors are male, so therefore I think it is a more valid concern. But my sole reason for posting this was because I had read Protecting the Gift, and he states that simply be not having men as caregivers you are ahead of the game, or something to that effect. I'm just not sure that's how I want to live my life, which is why I made the OP.

I also wanted to comment that someone linked some stats before, and one of them said that 1-3% of men are molestors. So yes, it is helpful to bear in mind that while most molestors are men, most men are not molestors. Which is why this is a hard issue.

Regarding how molestors choose victims and equating it to blaming the victim - I have thought it through quite a bit, and it has nothing to do with blaming the victim. I would never blame a child for having a more quiet personality. I would never blame a child for having a relationship with their parents that doesn't promote honesty, or whatever. None of it is ever the child's fault. But I have seen countless interviews with convicted child molestors, and every single time, they detail how carefully they choose their victims, the qualities they look for, the signs they look for. It's a reality, not something I blame the child for. And of course with very young children, babies, access is the key ingredient. If you don't discuss the realities of molestation, simply just yell about how men can't be trusted, you are turning a blind eye. Access is key, but our children get older and can't always be under our control. So yes, it's helpful to be aware of how they work, and how our children might be perceived. My mom always worried more about my little sister than she did me, simply based on our different personalities. Did that mean she thinks my sister would have been more at fault should she have been molested? Of course not, that's ridiculous. And it doesn't mean that she thinks that I was immune. It's just a reality that certain ingredients lend themselves more to being victimized than others. Nothing is guaranteed, and it is never the child's fault. As Oprah once said "I don't care if I walked in buck naked and sat on his lap, he is the adult." Pretty much sums it up for me.

And from what I understand, rape is a different issue than child molestation. Again, I am not an expert, but my understanding is that rape stems from anger, aggression and control issues, whereas child molestation a sexual deviance.
post #135 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinaKat View Post
Life is a series of calculated risks. You evaluate the situation as carefully as you can and then move forward. You don't get in the elevator with the sketchy looking person but the delivery guy seems okay. You won't drive in a blizzard but if the weather report looks good you buckle up and go. And you meet the sitter and get to know him/or her VERY well before you leave them with your child.

Automatically making these choices without evaluation can leave one paralyzed with fear.
This is a calculated risk that can be calculated out by having only adult women care for my child, thus leaving me with fewer fears. There are still plenty of risks out there, but this is one that is far less likely since I made this calculated decision. It is not unevaluated, in my case. I was never sexually abused, but I know plenty of women who were--all by males. My Dd has plenty of interactions with men and boys, and the decision not to have male caretakers is something she is oblivious to, so she won't have any problems coming from having been more protected in this way.
post #136 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovemy2ds View Post
Lets also add you do not here about girls molesting people because stastically it happens less, we arn't told because it is not shared very often, but it does happen a lot, just like men who beat their wives, it's shared, but just a lot of women beat their DH as well, but we hardly ever hear about it.
You think that children who are abused by women are less likely to report it?
post #137 of 343
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RubyWild View Post
You think that children who are abused by women are less likely to report it?
I think that's possible. I also think it's possible that it's less likely to be believed, or prosecuted, therefore affecting the stats. But even taking all this into account, I still believe that most child molestors are men, by a long shot. BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MOST MEN ARE CHILD MOLESTORS.
post #138 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viewfinder View Post
But, I still trusted my intuition even though my head could only seem to articulate, "I don't get why this guy wants to be a preschool teacher." My intuition, which was causing my stomach to tighten, was picking up that his intentions were not good.

So, yes, don't judge based on gender, but don't turn off your intuition based on not wanting to judge based on gender, because that might be all your head can tell you: "It's because he's a boy/man." If your intuition says "no," don't question yourself about why it's saying no.
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>
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I'm not saying "be sexist." I'm saying, sexism isn't a part of this discussion. It's intuition, and it may not always speak to you in literal language... it may be in symbols. It may use a sexist symbol to tell you: "Not good."
Right- trust your gut! Don't let yourself get caught up in "She's female, she must be a good caregiver" or "he's male, he must be a molester why else would he want to work with little kids?" What's that individual's attitude, maturity level, and what gut feeling does that person give you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I have never said I would *exclude* a boy. I said there is an extra set of questions I ask myself about a boy, and I am therefore less comfortable with a boy in general. Individual men, who I trust *after* considering that extra set of questions, are still in.
OK, thanks for clarifying. From prior posts on this thread it sounded like you distrusted all men and would never consider any of them as caregivers for your DD.

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Originally Posted by RubyWild View Post
You think that children who are abused by women are less likely to report it?
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Originally Posted by oceanbaby View Post
I think that's possible. I also think it's possible that it's less likely to be believed, or prosecuted, therefore affecting the stats.
I was wondering the exact same thing. Just because 96% of perpetrators reported to law enforcement are male does NOT mean that 96% of all child molesters are male.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceanbaby
I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MOST MEN ARE CHILD MOLESTORS.
Neither do I!!
post #139 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by RubyWild View Post
You think that children who are abused by women are less likely to report it?
AH no that's not what i said, i said you don't hear about it as much.
post #140 of 343
[QUOTE=Ruthla;7022155]



I was wondering the exact same thing. Just because 96% of perpetrators reported to law enforcement are male does NOT mean that 96% of all child molesters are male.

QUOTE]


I think the same could be said for x amount of those abused coming forward to speak against male perpetrators.... there will be x amount of those that are dismissed or not believed.
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