When mommy is mad - Page 2

[gaialice]

I know I am OT, and I know some mommys will disagree with me, but, I think that I would not change the plan of the entire evening just because dd did not want to wear shoes. In my opinion, when the child feels his actions are just so overwhelmingly important he feels much more power than he is able to handle and usually just acts even worse. I am not sure what I would have done, it really depends. Perhaps rather than offering many options (slippers, carrying him, other shoes...) just calmly saying "We'll go when you are ready to put shoes on" and calmly go on with whatever else you were doing. Or else trying playfully like "I bet I can wear my shoes without looking, can you?" or whatever... I agree with PP that you handled the tantrum well and that you can and indeed should model for ds that when you feel upset and angry
it is a good thing to take some time to regroup and be by yourself.

[OakBerry]

Originally Posted by gaialice

I know I am OT, and I know some mommys will disagree with me, but, I think that I would not change the plan of the entire evening just because dd did not want to wear shoes. In my opinion, when the child feels his actions are just so overwhelmingly important he feels much more power than he is able to handle and usually just acts even worse. I am not sure what I would have done, it really depends. Perhaps rather than offering many options (slippers, carrying him, other shoes...) just calmly saying "We'll go when you are ready to put shoes on" and calmly go on with whatever else you were doing. Or else trying playfully like "I bet I can wear my shoes without looking, can you?" or whatever... I agree with PP that you handled the tantrum well and that you can and indeed should model for ds that when you feel upset and angry
it is a good thing to take some time to regroup and be by yourself.

I agree, but was too scared to speak my mind, lol. I like to use logical conseqences, but his not putting on sneakers caused the entire family not to be able to go out to a restaurant. That doesn't seem very fair to everyone else. I probably would have gotten everyone ready, coats on etc, and picked up the shoes in my hand. My ds does this often btw. When he sees that we are carrying on despite his shoe protest, and realizes that he may be walking out to the car in his socks, he ends up putting them on at the door.
I also think you handled the tantrum very well. And agree that it's ok to ask an older for space when you are angry and upset.

[Aeress]

There have been times when dd went out without shoes. Once in the snow. We took one step out and she said "brrr" and said "shoes" and then she got her shoes on. I don't she connected cold=shoes on= not cold.

I think she needed something more concrete for her to understand why she needed shoes.

[Cassiopeia]

I might have plopped mine in the car without shoes too and just slipped them on when we got there. However, I would be worried what the behavior at the restaurant would be like if he was so tired/grouchy/whatever that he didn't even want shoes!

And I agree, giving yourself that break when you were angry was the right thing. Otherwise, you just end up with resentment in the long-term.

[moondiapers]

I think that giving affection when you don't feel affection isn't a good thing. He'll feel that you are angry and the hugs you give him probably won't feel like he expects them to. I think honesty is always the best policy. I'd tell him that you're angry about his tantrum or outburst and you need some time to breath and be alone. Make sure to reassure him that you'll have lots of hugs and cuddles to give him after you've had a little while to breath and relax to let go of the angry feelings.

-Heather

[sea island mama]

Originally Posted by Cassiopeia

I might have plopped mine in the car without shoes too and just slipped them on when we got there. However, I would be worried what the behavior at the restaurant would be like if he was so tired/grouchy/whatever that he didn't even want shoes!

I just came across this thread & this is the first thing I thought of...he was probably as hungry as the rest of you & this was how it came out. I am finally learning (after how long :?) that there is usually a good reason for a meltdown & it's usually hungry, tired or both. Ds did this the other day when we were stopping for pizza on our way home from out of town...he freaked out, didn't want to get out of the car & screamed as dh took him into the restaurant...as soon as we said, ok we'll take it home (we had called ahead), he settled down & we went home & ate it.
Dd also had a screaming meltdown as a friend was leaving one day last week & I realized that she had come home from school & hadn't eaten the snack the rest of the kids had...she was hungry (& probably tired as well) & that's how it manifested.

Originally Posted by Cassiopeia

And I agree, giving yourself that break when you were angry was the right thing. Otherwise, you just end up with resentment in the long-term.

It sounds like you did handle it very well - I don't know that I could have been so calm - & letting him know you needed some time & he could hang out with daddy for a bit was just the right thing.

[GoodWillHunter]

Wow, Asherah. You rock. And it's okay that you're mad and it's totally cool to be honest with your child. We aren't Stepford wives, yk?

[asherah]

Um, I tried all that stuff in regards to the shoes. I did playful, I did leave him alone. But at some point, saying "we'll go when you're ready to put on shoes" means you DON'T go, if he is never ready to put on the shoes. At some point it gets too late to go. At some point, you have to give up and EAT.

And I was not going to risk taking him to the restaurant barefoot, having him STILL refuse to put on shoes, and having the meltdown in the restaurant, and disturbing everyone else. Or fighting in the car, and then having to just turn around and go home anyway, hungrier than ever.

Nor was I going to force shoes on his feet. We don't do force in this house unless health or safety is at stake.

OT: He has real control issues around food though, I will say that.
He is now refusing to eat lunch at pre-school. He eats plenty at home. He used to eat everything there, so I don't think it is about the food.. I think he is trying to assert his power there. Sigh. I guess I will try packing lunches for him.

[babybugmama]

It's interesting that you mention that he is having eating issues at school which you think are related to control. Two things pop into my mind. First, what is going on at school that makes him feel out of control, thus needing control? And second, I have noticed with my dd that when she is feeling out of control in any area of her life it overflows. So, the shoe incident could easily happen here at home too even if the need for control originated elsewhere.

[asherah]

Originally Posted by babybugmama

It's interesting that you mention that he is having eating issues at school which you think are related to control. Two things pop into my mind. First, what is going on at school that makes him feel out of control, thus needing control? And second, I have noticed with my dd that when she is feeling out of control in any area of her life it overflows. So, the shoe incident could easily happen here at home too even if the need for control originated elsewhere.

I think it is just a matter of resenting having to do things he doesn't want to do.

His teachers say he has told them "no" a couple of times recently when they have asked him to wash his hands or go outside with the rest of his class. He normally loves school, and is normally pretty easy going, but he is testing boundaries right now, big time.

I think he is just going through a phase of wanting to make his own choices and assert control.. and eating is one area where he can do that AND get a lot of attention for it.

So we are trying to talk a lot about making choices, about appropriate behavior at school, about how sometimes we have choices and sometimes we have to compromise etc etc.. and I am trying not to give him too much negative attention around the not eating lunch thing. Which is hard, because of course you want your child to eat!

I think the shoe thing was just more about being tired and hungry and overstimulated. Hard to say, though.

He is definitely going through something.

[babybugmama]

Another way to give him control is to talk about how he has control over his body, feeling, and actions. (I play this up with dd a lot. She is a gal that NEEDS to be the one with the power and control. Sometimes I majorly fall on my ass though with that one.) That he can choose what outcome he wants based on his behavior. You're right about the eating being an area that can be really charged. Your best bet there is to minimize your reaction (IMO) and he'll move on to something else. I wonder if the teachers could phrase things more like when you wash hands we'll go outside (or whatever the next activity is) and then just leave him to make the choice.

Soon you'll be able to see what it is that he's going through and things will get easier (for a while ).

[asherah]

Thanks honey. You are really reaffirming everything I have been thinking/doing.

But I am flying on instinct right now, because while he is great at talking about dinosaurs (lol), he is still pretty limited when it comes to discussing feelings.

His teachers are really great, I trust them to handle it. They always communicate with us, and take our feedback. And I kind of feel he has to learn to deal with different communication styles at this point, too.

But ooh, it can be tough. No one wants to see their child refuse to eat!

[babybugmama]

aww to you

I have a good friend when I was going through some angst with dd who reminded me that we have to repeat repeat repeat. The emotional stuff will come. One idea though is to ask him what the best part of the day was and what was the worst part...then ask him to talk about the whys... It helps build that emotional repetoire (sp?)...

[2tadpoles]

Originally Posted by asherah

His teachers say he has told them "no" a couple of times recently when they have asked him to wash his hands or go outside with the rest of his class....<snip>....So we are trying to talk a lot about making choices, about appropriate behavior at school, about how sometimes we have choices and sometimes we have to compromise...."

Bold is mine.

Do the teachers really ask him? I mean, if he says no....does he get to skip whatever activity he's being prodded into?

I only ask because I have never actually seen a school/daycare situation where kids were really given choices. They are told to do something, and if they don't like it they are given "choices" that aren't really choices. "Johnny, will you please go wash your hands?" "No, I don't want to." "Well, Johnny....you can't eat lunch until you wash your hands." So the choice is actually wash your hands or starve, neither of which are appealing to Johnny.

What sort of compromise happens at your son's school? Is it truly compromise, or is your son being manipulated into doing what the teachers want?

Kids often can't articulate it, but they know when they're between a rock and a hard place. Some children are people-pleasers and will just suck it up and do as they're told. Others act out.

[asherah]

Yes, they ask.

And yes, he can SOMETIMES skip the activity.
Not all times, and that is appropriate as far as I am concerned.

There are things you HAVE to do at school. That's life. However, I do not believe his teachers would EVER withhold nutrition from him as a way to get him to do what they want. They are the ones who came to US to voice concerns about him not eating, and to ask how we wanted them to handle it. We do not plan to homeschool, so I am comfortable with him having to learn to work out these issues in a school setting.

Your post really has a very anti-daycare/school slant, and I am not really interested in a mommy-wars, pre-school is bad/no it isn't discussion. I see that you homeschool, and I support that. However, we don't, and we chose his school very carefully, spend lots of time there, and have a great relationship with his teachers.

And as I have said, he has some of the same issues at home, too. I think it is NORMAL to struggle with issues of choice and boundaries. And I think he will start eating when he gets hungry enough, as long as people don't feed into the negative attention too much.

[2tadpoles]

Originally Posted by asherah

Your post really has a very anti-daycare/school slant, and I am not really interested in a mommy-wars, pre-school is bad/no it isn't discussion.

My kids were in full-time childcare starting at the age of six weeks. That's how much time the Navy gives you to get back to work after having a child. My oldest was in daycare up until he started Kindergarten at a public school (he wasn't always homeschooled), and my youngest was in daycare until he was four.

You said you were concerned because he melts down "frequently." I was looking into possible causes. If you feel that it's normal for kids to have to struggle with choices, then you will probably be dealing with meltdowns for some time. I speak from experience, as my oldest son was a handful.

[asherah]

Hmm. It feels frequent, but that is probably not accurate.
He melts down under certain circumstances. We are working on changing the circumstances.

But I just feel he is going through something developmental.. not caused by school or home. Some phase of needing more control, yet sometimes being overwhelmed by having control. And it manifests around eating a lot, which is a concern but also makes some sense. Cause it is something he absolutely CAN control. No one is gonna force feed him, it is definitely a place he can assert himself. He used to refuse to poop in the same way and struggled with constipation for a while.. and it passed. So to speak. Lol. I am hoping this will pass, too.

[beanma]

sounds like my house except i probably wouldn't have been as patient as you were.

after the meltdown i would go ahead and give a quick hug (not a prolonged snuggle time) and tell my dd1 that a need a few minutes to calm down. that's great modeling! she totally needs to take a few minutes to calm herself down sometimes, not that she does it, but she needs it.

my dd1 is very independent-minded and VERY attached at the same time. super cautious -- often has a hard time w/ goodbyes, but wants to do things her way. she very very easily melts down. doesn't take much at all.

actually on the shoe thing my kids know they have to wear shoes to go into a restaurant or store so really we would have gone to the car sans shoes and put them on before going to the restaurant. they always take their shoes off in the car anyway. i can't keep shoes on them and don't try. the first thing dd1 does when she gets to school (private K) is take her shoes off and put them in her cubby. there's a reason we're not in public school.

as for the eating lunch thing can you feed him a really big breaskfast? i've always had to pack lunch for my dd1 -- just preK and now K. we've never been in a school situation where lunch was offered. snack is provided at K and often dd1 doesn't eat it, but i don't worry about that. i let her eat in the car (meltdowns in cars do not make mommy a good driver) and i just bring lots of snacks for the ride home. he'll eat if he's hungry and he likes the food.

i'm sure it will pass and then we'll be dealing with something else!

[MonkeyQueen]

I think plan A sounds pretty good. Everyone needs time to process and calm down on occasion. Even him. If you expain it that way in a loving tone, I think it'll be fine. He may not like it, but it's also a good thing for him to learn for himself. My son has sever meltdowns and has used the technique himself. He said he learned it by watching me calm down.

-Melanie