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Should you tell your child.. - Page 3

post #41 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama ganoush View Post
but singing is so subjective. I can't stand Mariah Carey's voice, yet she is supposedly such an "amazing singer".


g,
another raspy tom waits fan.
Yes and no. Style of music preference, voice quality, that sort of stuff is subjective, range (like I prefer lower voices to higher voices), etc are most definitely subjective. I really don't see being able to sing in tune or not is subjective.
post #42 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnysideup View Post
I think kids get to that place by being hit with the constant false praise from their parents. It's the 3yo that can't just sing around the house without being told "you're such a good singer!" that grows into the older child humiliating himself on AI.
True. I also wonder where the balance comes in between encouraging children to keep trying at things they may enjoy but aren't particularly good at and giving false hope. I think that can be a very fine line sometimes.
post #43 of 104
I would suggest to my kids that they not go on American Idol, whether they were good singers or not!

Parents walk a fine line. It can be a mistake to be too supportive, too discouraging, or too uninvolved. I think it's important to be constructive and open-ended either way. For instance if someone sang flat, with enough work they could usually fix it. For some kids that might actually be worth it to them. I think it's better to give a child the sense of what they can accomplish, and the tools or connections to do so, than to tell them they can't do it and that's that, or to lie and tell them that they can if it's not true.
post #44 of 104
I don't think I'd outright tell a child "your singing voice sucks" if he or she was just singing around the house, singing along with recorded music, etc. However, if he or she wanted to audition for something like American Idol, I'd be brutally honest about my opinion of the child's talents and prepare him or her about what might be ahead (rejection by others, possible humiliation, etc.)
post #45 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama ganoush View Post
i wouldn't tell my young child that she wasn't a good singer, because kids take joy in singing.
Yes, this. I want my dd to sing because she enjoys it. If I label it and get involved I might discourage her from doing it or make her feel like she has to met some standard. My dd does seem to be good at singing, but I'm just glad she's having fun.

A pp said that they learned in kindergarten that they couldn't sing. That is terrible, IMO! I know people who perform who are flat sometimes. My dd is flat sometimes too. That doesn't mean she should give up on choir and thinks he can't sing for the rest of her life. I'm really sorry you were discouraged. If you enjoy singing, perhaps taking a voice lesson would show you that perhaps you can sing in tune.

Back to the OP. I have this wonderful friend. Her dh seems to be delusional about his abilities. He can admit some fault, sure, but he seems truly delusional about many things. I have theorized before that his mom, who I've met, praised him too much and unrealistically and that now he has an unrealistic view of himself. Contrast that to another good friend whose dh's mom put him down all the time. He is beat down because of it. Both have huge problems in relationships and work. Neither have a realistic view of themselves.

This is a real life example of how praise can be exactly as detrimental as criticism.

If my dd wants to sing, then great. If she wants to try out for American Idol, I'll loan her video camera so she can work on her performance. I'm not going to be the pushing parent, the overly praising parent OR the putting down parent. I'm finding middle ground.
post #46 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikel1979 View Post
True. I also wonder where the balance comes in between encouraging children to keep trying at things they may enjoy but aren't particularly good at and giving false hope. I think that can be a very fine line sometimes.
I think you can be encouraging without judging--"you really love to sing!" "I love to hear you singing" doesn't have the judgment, it's just about your enjoyment.
post #47 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama ganoush View Post
i wouldn't tell my young child that she wasn't a good singer, because kids take joy in singing.
exactly.
post #48 of 104
Ya that one poor guy that kinda sounded like Chris, and that girl who brought her boss in, they can be so rude. I would tell my kid if they we really bad, but only if they were wanting to addition for something like AI, would not want to see them get razed and made fun of on National T.V. But Even if they wanted to try despite the fact, I would support them.
post #49 of 104
Thread Starter 
i would never say to my child your singing sucks! But if my son decided at 16 he will try out for Canadian Idol, not sure what i would do. But we haven't been encouraging him all along that he is a great singer, maybe that's the difference.

I agree that some people on American idol no they suck and are just being goofy. But i do think there are people there that really think they can sing and are totally shocked when told they are tone deaf or sound horrible.
I think one woman last night said i think i can sing unless people have been lying to me (something like that)
post #50 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by becoming View Post
I wouldn't tell them they were BAD at it, but I also wouldn't give them false hope by complimenting their talents, etc.
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post #51 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samjm View Post


If I make a huge fuss about how great she is at X, but don't say too much when she does Y, the message comes across that she is better at X. Without coming out and hurting her feelings by saying "you stink at Y".

I think the problem is when parents praise EVERYTHING their child does, no matter how good or bad it is.

I totally agree with this. There is a huge difference between telling your child that you aren't good at something, than telling them they are good at something else. Positive reenforcement can do wonders without ever having to be negative. But like a lot of people said, when my child was older and they wanted to quit school to join a band or the olympic soccer team, and they just didn't have the talent, I think that is the time that a parent has to step in. I think it is hard for a parent to hard and scary to have to do that, but I think that if you know your child isn't good at something, it is unfair and cowardice to make someone else tell them. But again I think a lot of parents think they're kids are amazing at everything they do.
post #52 of 104
I think it's hard to answer this question about what you tell your child when the American Idol context is not there in your life (realistically), not to mention when your own child is a toddler, yet! I tend to hear the question and think "Would I tell my child...?" and answer no, rather than "If my child were a tuneless singer and wanted to audition for AI on tv, would I tell her....?" It's like you've got two threads going, here! Is this what we'd do differently if we were those parents you're seeing backstage? Or is this what we'd say (to the child) if a child of ours wasn't musically gifted but persisted in singing? (Or is this what we'd say if that child wanted to pursue a career in music, or audition on television for a ridiculous show, etc.)?

Anyway, I agree with many of the responses about not encouraging with false praise, but not being discouraging either.

This post makes an excellent point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicole lisa View Post
There are lots of role models for people without traditional singing voices that have done well for themselves and I would let my DS know that (Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, my crush Tom Waits etc - most rock stars wouldn't make it past AI first round auditions), but also be really honest about what his voice (or any skill) limits are, if he was old enough to think about entering a competition, and what a public audition (or private) entails and what a specific competition would be looking for. We mostly listen to ragged voices here so DS has lots of examples .

And I agree with jazzharmony that "good singing is often subjective and technique is not the be all end all." Singing "with heart and purity" is something very valuable in my book, as well.

I also have to say that I regard all those fabulously bad singers as hamming it up for their moment onscreen. We've all witnessed that the most notoriously remembered auditionees were the ones who were bad and who obviously thought they were good. That's what I'd do, if I were a kid wanting to try for a splash. Do an impossibly bad job, and play it so straight: be amazed and astounded to hear that I can't sing. Crushed by the news (on camera)? So much the better! Most of the time, I don't buy it.

I didn't see the episode people are talking about, and I don't doubt that some people carry illusions about their talent and are built up by family and friends (and I also know that people seem to respond to inflection and affect in deciding someone is "good" or "talented" or "such a showman," in spite of lack of pitch, etc. So it's possible that if someone strikes strong poses, sings really high or lots of notes, and imitates a popular delivery or tone, others could tell her she is a good singer and not really be lying. Just mistaken!) But I really have suspicions about so many of the awful soundbites in the early rounds (much of which keep people watching/listening, too.) I think they do know they're awful, or that they are putting us one by being intentionally awful, but are playing it straight for the drama when they're shot down.
post #53 of 104
I don't think it is usually necessary to tell your child they are bad at something. Most people figure it out. I think it is important not to give false praise or empty praise for everything your child does though. I think you can support your child and guide them to their talents without crushing their spirit and enjoyment.

My family encouraged me to pursue my artistic talents. They never told me I'd be famous or make a big career out of it. They saw it was something I enjoyed from an early age. My mom encouraged me to take art classes to develop my talent. I could compare my work to other artists and students and get non-biased feedback from my teachers so I don't feel I had false views of my talents.

No one ever told me my singing wasn't very good (until young dd screams at me to stop singing and covers her ears- ouch!) but I figured out pretty early that it wasn't my talent to sing solos in public.
post #54 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicole lisa View Post
There are lots of role models for people without traditional singing voices that have done well for themselves and I would let my DS know that (Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, my crush Tom Waits etc - most rock stars wouldn't make it past AI first round auditions)
Another :

I also tell my kids that art doesn't have to be beautiful and people aren't always going to like it. I want to nurture self expression rather than encourage a need for approval.
post #55 of 104
I'm someone who has to try just about everything. I just enjoy the experiences. I am a terrible singer, but I have gotten up in front of people and sung a duet with my husband which we had been practicing for a while. We warned people it wasn't going to be good. Luckily they were mostly just drunk enough to enjoy it.

I'm a recovering perfectionist though. I had one of those moms who criticized everything and did not encourage doing things that I wasn't "good at". So in my adult life I'm enjoying trying to break out of that mold and try all the stuff I wasn't encouraged to as a kid.

I plan on always supporting my kids in trying new things. However, I do agree that it's a disservice to instill false hope. You can be supportive without doing that I think. In the AI example, if dd or ds wanted to try out for something like that, and I thought that they truly couldn't carry a tune in a bucket I wouldn't strongly discourage them from trying (assuming I wasn't going to have to shell out a lot of money for it ), but I would try to help prepare them for what the results would likely be.

DD gets frustrated sometimes when she can't do things the way she imagines them in her mind, but I always try to tell her that you don't have to be good at something to enjoy doing it.
post #56 of 104
It depends on the context. If a kid is just wandering around singing badly for fun, I wouldn't say anything. If they decided to apply to Juilliard, we'd have to talk, because I think it's cruel to set a kid up for a massive failure/humilation like that. I know several people whose parents set them up just like that and they all suffered terribly.
post #57 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mamma Mia View Post

Back to the OP. I have this wonderful friend. Her dh seems to be delusional about his abilities. He can admit some fault, sure, but he seems truly delusional about many things. I have theorized before that his mom, who I've met, praised him too much and unrealistically and that now he has an unrealistic view of himself. Contrast that to another good friend whose dh's mom put him down all the time. He is beat down because of it. Both have huge problems in relationships and work. Neither have a realistic view of themselves.

This is a real life example of how praise can be exactly as detrimental as criticism.
I have the same feelings about this. My mil is the type who praised my DH over every stupid little thing (she's the type that thinks her kid poops gold). One of our friends ended up sitting next to my mil on a flight and he said that the ENTIRE time, the only thing my mil talked about was how great her kids were, and she just bragged and bragged. Now, my DH is a great all around guy, but he was never THAT great of a student, never THAT great of an athelete, never THAT great of an artist, etc.. He's got a great personality though, and is one of those ppl that everyone likes. My mil totally blows things out of proportion making her son sound like some sort of god. He has a lot of confidence, which is good... but sometimes he thinks he is better than he really is, and I end up telling him what I think to help avoid a situation where he'll make a fool of himself. I see this situation very often these days, the over-praising, and then having kids who really think they are THAT great, when they are not. Having good self esteem and confidence is different from having an over-inflated self esteem and confidence, b/c your parents over-praised you on purpose.

Now, on the flip side, I am the one who was brought up by parents who ONLY put my brothers and I down. Even when we were good at something, we never felt like it, b/c they always told us we were bad. To this day, I have a VERY difficult time with hearing ppl praise me on something I've done well. When they compliment me, I get embarrassed and change the topic instead of just saying, "thank you" and feeling good about it. It's awful to not feel good about yourself. So, I *really* try to balance things out with my kids. I praise them, but I don't want to praise them too much, b/c then I think they will have an unrealistic idea of their abilities and I don't want them to think that praise means everything. I try to use those neutral comments instead of the, "you're so great" comments.

If my kid was bad at something, I would not tell them they were bad at it (having had my parents tell me I was bad at everything... I had absolutely no self esteem and I don't want my kids to go through that). However, I would try to help them find something that they were good at and then encourage them to focus their attn on that skill/art instead. Singing is one of those things that you should enjoy, even if you are bad at it, and I wouldn't want to tell my kid that they sucked and then have them to be too embarrassed to ever sing again b/c of my own thoughtless comment from when he was a kid.
post #58 of 104
I really dislike how our culture is so results-oriented. Singing is fun, it can bring people together, it can motivate and inspire and more. It doesn't *have* to be about fame or a career or anything else. I think it's more productive, especially with kids, to focus on how much they're enjoying an activity as opposed to how "good" they are at it.

Of course, I still perversely enjoy the AI audition trainwreck :
post #59 of 104
I usually wouldn't say anything, but if they were trying to get on American Idol and they couldn't carry a tune, well, I'd be kinder than Simon!
post #60 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by BelgianSheepDog View Post
It depends on the context. If a kid is just wandering around singing badly for fun, I wouldn't say anything. If they decided to apply to Juilliard, we'd have to talk, because I think it's cruel to set a kid up for a massive failure/humilation like that. I know several people whose parents set them up just like that and they all suffered terribly.
What if the parent is tone deaf? Why are parents automatically the judge of musical talent? Having taught music classes for families, let me tell you parents quite often sing loud and can't carry a tune.

It won't crush someone who loves music to apply and not be accepted to Juilliard, trust me.
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