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Is this really how unschoolers do it?  

post #1 of 63
Thread Starter 
In the following quote I don't like some of the terms used eg 'trained' 'meaningful' to name a few. I don't like the idea of 'manipulating' or 'tricking' children's interest. But I was wondering whether the actual process she describes is something that an unschooler would do naturally and probably unconsciously when interacting with their child. And this is maybe where I am going wrong. I also feel maybe I have not nurtured my child's enthusiasm for learning which is why my dd does just plop down in front of the television.

The quote is from a book I am reading:
'Homeschooling- Take a Deep breath- You Can Do This!' (Terrie Bittner):

Unschooling:
Unschooling is also known as natural learning, child led learning and various other names people think up to describe this popular homeschooling method. Unschooling means the children learn what they want, when they want and the way they want. They might spend all day playing in the mud or they might spend hours on a workbook. It's their choice.

Despite what an unschooler may tell you, most of them really aren't all that casual about it. Many homeschoolers structure the math and most also structure reading instruction until the child reads well. The other subjects are unstructured. But even in these areas, many parents sneak in more structure than might be apparent.

Suppose you wanted your child to study astronomy but you knew they would rebel if you just said you were going to study it. You want them to think it is their idea, How would you go about it?

I might begin by taking them to a planetarium. Then I might follow up with a movie about space or astronauts. A few days later, I would read some books to them about the stars and perhaps buy a telescope. Soon the children have the night sky on their minds and are beginning to learn about it on their own. The better they've been trained to be curious about the world, the more likely this is to work. Technically you are following their lead when you help them track down materials, crafts and field trips related to the new topic of study because they've now shown an interest in the subject. Unofficially, you, well we don't want to say tricked them into it or manipulated them into it....perhaps you sparked an interest? That's it! Through good parenting techniques, you sparked an interest in astronomy.

...........As the parent you must work to be sure your children are involved in meaningful activities. If they haven't learned to have an enthusiastic love for learning and exploration, they may plop down in front of the television all day and do nothing. Unschooling parents pay close attention to what their children are doing and guide them to quality activities.


What do you think?
post #2 of 63
I might take my ds to a planetarium because I thought he'd like it. If he didn't, he would just demand to do home. My ds is very resistant to manipulation . I do pay close attention to his interests because he is young enough that he doesn't know what is available in the big wide world. If he isn't interested in something, nothing will change that. He'd probably cover his ears and shout LA LA LA if I tried to tell him about something he wasn't interested in.

The only thing that I can think of that I do to nurture his enthusiasm is to not squelch him when he is enthusiastic about something. I rarely put him off until later when he wants to try out an idea. If it isn't something we can do right away, I remember to follow up with him when we can do it.
post #3 of 63
That's not how "we" do it.

Luckily my children are curious people. I don't "manipulate" them to desire learning about something. I may be sitting down and watching a show on Discover, because I'm interested, and they may come in and sit down with me to watch. Sometimes, one or all go off in a huff because it's boring and I won't change the channel , but more times than not, they ask about more information about whatever program. So we dig out our resources and learn together or not.

DS14 tried out for a part in the Renassance (sp) faire, so lately dd(8) has been interested in that era, not to mention ds14 has always found that part of history interesting and frequently has something or another going on about it.

I keep things around the house that may stimulate interest, but I don't believe that is manipulating them to be interested since it is only an opportunity to find interest in it.

NOW, we're not radical unschoolers, but we are very much child led when it comes to their choices on what and how to learn (except our teen which we do require at least some math and lang. arts, in which he did research verious programs and chose what he would like to do, and has been very happy with his choices.).

I"m not fond of the wording either in the article. I don't "trick" my kids into wanting to learn about stuff. I don't feel it's necessary to be so underhanded. If I want them to persue a topic, I ask if they'd be interested in learning about it. If not, I don't make a big deal out of it and move on.

DH was worried about dd(8) and spelling, out of the blue with out our interferance she's decided to spell everything she says. This may be prompted partly because dh and I spell out words fast so the younger children can't "catch" what we're saying Christmas time is fun for this, and partly because she desires to write to her new friend that comes to visit her dad (our neighbor) every other weekend. Basically, she understand she needs the skill and wants to work on it.

So, I suppose if providing opportunity to discover topics of interest, discussions and offerings of more resources are considered "manipulation" and "good parenting ", then fine whatever. I consider taking it at face value which is simply providing resources and opportunity for the children to discover something they may find of interest or exciting. I would be lax as a parent ( the good parenting thing I think), IMO, to not provide these basic things.
post #4 of 63
I think that's manipulative garbage, not unschooling. I don't think she has a clue what real unschooling looks like.

dar
post #5 of 63
If it is done "naturally" as YOU say and subconsciously (that is how it works in our house when I look at things in retrospect) then yes I would say it is unschooling. If it is done based on hidden fears/concerns/lack of trust on part of the parent, then I would say it isn't. I am not even going to attempt to pin my OWN label on this, : as it has been hashed out many times in the archives of this board.

Tina, learning through life w/ dp James, dd Stephanie (6) and ds Jonathan (3) here in Manitoba Canada
post #6 of 63
Not exactly OT- I don't think you have failed in any way just because your dc likes TV too much- TV is very addictive and easily becomes a habit. I've had a number of times that I've had to make a no TV week or something to help us get out of the habit of turning it on. I am guesssing that's not radical unschooly, but it makes sense for us.
post #7 of 63
nope that is NOT how we do it...
it dont matter how much i want her to do something or learn it if she is not intrested then im just wasting my time when dd is intresed in something everyone knows it she asks questions and she wants to know about it there is no way i could get her to sit down and learn anything if she didnt want to do it she will just get mad and throw a temper because she is not intrested in being forced in to learning in our house learning is fun yes i do buy things or think up things to do but it is her that leads

ok I did do one thing once i got preg. and then she did get intrested in everything to do with pregnancy and everything to do with it :
post #8 of 63
No, I wouldn't call that unschooling. If I wanted my kids to study astronomy, I'd show them a little about it and ask them what they think. And if they weren't interested, we'd move on.

Blech. I would much rather just follow a curriculum than manipulate my kids like that.

ZM
post #9 of 63
I'm still trying to decide how much of an unschooler I am, and how much I want to be. I might be in transition, lol, so take this with salt.

I might word it this way: I think astronomy (or any subject or activity) is interesting, so I look around to see if anything is happening in the community along those lines. I say to dd "look, there's a new planetarium show. Those are cool, they have a huge screen over your head and show you stars and things in space, want to go?" She has a choice to say yes or no, if she says yes then we go. That might be the end of it, or not. She might ask to find some library books, she might ask me questions I can't answer so we look it up online, I might even go so far as to check out some books of my own volition and leave them lying around the house. It's her choice whether she picks them up or not. I have no personal need that must be fulfilled by dd's systematic study of astronomy.

I don't think the idea in the article is manipulative garbage in and of itself, I do think the languaging comes from the mindset that children need to be led around by the nose in order to learn anything. She's forgetting that kids are going to be interested in learning no matter what you do. I think that if you take that element away, and just go to the darned planetarium because it is cool, that might be more like unschooling. Modeling an enthusiasm. I also think what this article says goes too far. Jumping all over a mild curiosity by tracking down books and materials ad nauseum isn't really following a child's lead. It's probably just annoying.

I think that if something interests you and you want to share it with your kids, that's a great thing. I think that we do have a responsibility to expose kids to as much of the world as we can. I think deciding that they need to learn something because you think it is interesting is a slippery slope, though. And I'm totally prepared for my kids to find something I've never heard about to be interested in. I can offer to help, but I'm not going to act so overjoyed that they finally found something to get serious about that I take over and create a huge project for them to do.

I do limit TV and video games and stuff like that, my kids are 7 and 2.5. For instance, right now they are getting over a cold. While they were sick, they watched a lot of movies. Today I said "not right now, we'll watch one later." So, they're playing. Once they're feeling better, I expect they'll get bored and want to go somewhere. Perhaps if they could watch movies and TV all day, they would feel stimulated enough doing that that they wouldn't be as interested in finding other things to do. I feel perfectly OK with making that kind of entertainment be something we do once a week or so, and just in the evenings. The whole family is limited this way, the adults have the same standards as the kids. It's more of a "this is how it is in our family" than a "no, you're not allowed to do that."
post #10 of 63
It sounds to me like he's describing a method of homeschooling, one that I wouldn't necessarily call "unschooling." Maybe I'd call it "unit studies" but this technique sounds awfully parent-led to me! He makes it sound like unschooling is a lot of work and that, left to their own devices, children would never learn. Isn't that the exact opposite of what unschooling is supposed to be about?

What he described sounds to me like somebody brand-new to homeschooling, who wants to unschool but doesn't fully trust her children yet.
post #11 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hera View Post
I don't think the idea in the article is manipulative garbage in and of itself, I do think the languaging comes from the mindset that children need to be led around by the nose in order to learn anything. She's forgetting that kids are going to be interested in learning no matter what you do. I think that if you take that element away, and just go to the darned planetarium because it is cool, that might be more like unschooling. Modeling an enthusiasm. I also think what this article says goes too far. Jumping all over a mild curiosity by tracking down books and materials ad nauseum isn't really following a child's lead. It's probably just annoying.

:

Though one person's jumping-on-mild-curiosity might be anothers providing-a-rich-variety-of-materials-suiting-kid's-interest. I didn't necessarily take from the article that the example was of a mom unknowingly overwhelming her kids with info.

Of course, now that I've gone back to re-read the article to double check how overwhelming the mom's response was, I see that she says you know they'll rebel if you say we're learning this. That is hard for me to understand; however, I do think kids can get turned off of learning things they would otherwise be interested in because it is presented as a "must do" -- that's part of the reason why I'm hsing, to avoid killing the love of learning that can result from force. So is she simply a mom who thinks her kids will enjoy astronomy if it is presented casually, but will reject something that looks like a lesson that must be learned, so she's taking the casual route? Or is she actually manipulative and wanting her children to learn certain things at certain times, and "strewing" to achieve that end?

Haven't we had this discussion before? And yet I still don't know where I stand.
post #12 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthla View Post
What he described sounds to me like somebody brand-new to homeschooling, who wants to unschool but doesn't fully trust her children yet.
I disagree. I think she is saying "unschoolers think they don't have structure, but really many they do xyz, which is structured." She may be misrepresenting or misinterpreting, but I don't think either she or this concept are brand new. There is debate within the "unschooling community" about what constitutes unschooling -- many radical unschoolers might tell less radical unschoolers that they aren't really unschooling because they strew or what have you.

ETA: Terrie Bittner
post #13 of 63
I think that could be unschooling. That is one person's way of doing it. No one is being forced to do anything. I think most kids would be happy to take a trip to the planetarium for the first time. After that, I think you could ask your kids if they are interested since they'd now know what it is. I sometimes rent DVDs I think are a good idea for my DS to watch. Occasionally he won't want to watch one and that's fine. There's no pressure. Same with books. If you start reading a book on planets and the child isn't interested then you can stop. My DS will tell me if he doesn't want to read something!
post #14 of 63
That's not what unschooling is for my family at all. Sure, we might read books and go places, but there is no underlying hidden motive in why we do it. We do it because we want to, because it seems interesting or fun. If my kids aren't into astronomy or how to make apple pie or any other thing so be it. I would not try and find ways to get them to "do" those things.

She's entitled to this definition of unschooling, of course, but it's definitely not our definition.
post #15 of 63
Having thought more about it, my issue with this characterization of unschooling is that the underlying assumption is that children must be forced into learning, or
Quote:
they may plop down in front of the television all day and do nothing.
I consider the foundation of unschooling is the belief that my kids will be interested in valuable things and will want to learn. I don't need to trick or manipulate them, or even make them think it was their idea. I can overtly introduce subjects, and while they may not be interested in all (or any) of the subjects I introduce, they will still learn without my forcing them to do things they aren't interested in.

What's interesting is that it seems to be a description of unschooling by someone who is not an unschooler, but is trying to describe unschooling in a positive way, from her perspective.

ZM
post #16 of 63
ZM, yes the TV thing gets me too. Sigh....

I realize that not every family is comfortable with a lot of TV viewing or even a little. My family is perfectly comfortable with TV, and we watch a lot of it. We feel that we have learned a lot from it and that it has enriched our lives just as books, music, and great food have. It's a tad frustrating when people make the assumption that we "do nothing" because we enjoy watching TV, or that unschoolers who don't limt TV do nothing but watch TV and nothing else.
post #17 of 63
Honesty is pretty much at the core of my relationship with my daughter, and I unschool from that basic value. The core of that paragraph was "sneaking" and getting your child to think something is is his idea (when it really isn't), "you don't want to say" that you tricked or manipulated your child (but, if you were being honest, you would admit that you did).

This goes beyond "strewing", which I also find manipulative, yes, but not to this degree...

dar
post #18 of 63
Sort of OT question - when you guys are using the term "strewing," are you referring to the practice of leaving various materials around the house in the hopes that your child will become interested in the subject and want to learn about it?? I'm not to "up" on all the hsing lingo yet...
post #19 of 63
I think that's where it really turned me off, the whole idea that I must manipulate my children in order to get them to want to learn something. That goes against my moral code. I'm a very direct and sometimes too bluntly honest person. If I wanted my children to learn something I'd say,"here, read this, you may learn something" Otherwise, they know where the books, magazines, videos, and cd'roms are. They know how to use search engines and they know how to use their lang. skills to ask. Why would I need to manipulate them to a topic? Cripes! :
post #20 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebarnes View Post
Sort of OT question - when you guys are using the term "strewing," are you referring to the practice of leaving various materials around the house in the hopes that your child will become interested in the subject and want to learn about it?? I'm not to "up" on all the hsing lingo yet...

I think that's what it means. I understand it as say, I want the kids to learn about say, ummmmmmm, nose hair. So I get material of all sorts on "nose hair" and leave it in places the kids may see it and possibly pick it up out of curiosity.

I'm thinking, why leave all that clutter around the house when the children walk in on Dad while he's plucking said nose hairs and they ask him, "what are you doing Dad?" and he replies, "I'm plucking my nose hairs. Owe, See?", child, "Dad, what is a nose hair?"... and if dad doesn't have the answer, he'll say something like, "I don't know, do you want to look it up?" and if said kid says yes, well then we'll find out the answer together or child and learn about it solo.
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